14 Gauge SN 147 -- New user trying to identify Parker SxS

[Logan Strother]

Hello,
I recently came across a lifter-action Parker SxS that I'm having trouble identifying. I tried to find the serial number etc. using the "Technical Information" page here at parkerguns.org, but the numbers don't appear as the website suggests they should. There is no stamp on the number stamped on the lug is 147, which does not match any of the codes provided, and does not make sense as a frame size indicator. There is no stamp on the flat. 147 is also stamped on the watertable - and that is all (no grade, etc.). On the rib "Parker Bros Makers Meriden Conn Damascus Steel" is stamped. Also, the underside of each barrel is stamped with a "22" and what looks like small crown and "BP". I've attached pictures all the stamps and the areas where I would expect stamps where there aren't any.
I'm not sure what gauge the gun is chambered for either: a 12 gauge shell doesn't fit, and a 16 gauge flops around in the chamber. I'm not sure if its a 14 gauge, or if its 16 that's very shot out. The gun is in pretty good shape (far from perfect, to be sure) and has lots of engraving.
Can anyone help me identify this gun?

Thanks -

Logan Strother

[Mark Ouellette]

Logan,

I am not certain but... DO NOT sell this gun without a couple expert appraisals.
Note: One must be a PGCA member to sell via this PGCA forum...

You may have a rare 14 gauge Parker Brothers gun, serial number 147. I am probably wrong but maybe I am not! Nevertheless that is an early gun!

Mark

[Robin Lewis]

Is there any numbers or anything on the trigger bow? What do the extractors look like, are they large? Can you post pictures of the frame side & bottom as well as the forend?

Interesting gun.

[wayne goerres]

Well your gun has been to england. You have what looks like english proof marks on the barrels.

[Erick Dorr]

More likely the tubes were made in England, assembled by PB here. If memory serves that is Birmingham provisional proof and not a final proof. Early Parkers had British sourced tubes.
Will be interesting to find out the chamber guage.
Welcome,
Erick

[Mark Ouellette]

Gentlemen,

I am moving this thread to the General Discussions so that it received proper attention.

Mark

[Drew Hause]

Ken Barney posted this Pre-1874 Back Action Lifter

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL1373/6511424/19406549/267515330.jpg

with 3 Iron Crolle

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL1373/6511424/19406549/267514512.jpg

and Birmingham provisional proof marks first introduced in 1868. This proof was done with the tube unfinished, unchambered and not joined.

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL1373/6511424/19406549/267515410.jpg

[edgarspencer]

Logan, I think you'll find that 147 is the serial number. Also, it very likely is a 14ga.
I think it's pretty neat that two 14 ga guns have resurfaced, and appeared here on the same day.

[Logan Strother]

Thank you everyone for your help so far!
There's nothing on the trigger guard, as far as any stamp or engraving, etc. Requested pictures are attached.
Also, I didn't mention before, but you'll see in the pictures, that 147 is also stamped on the slide lock for the forend. Is there anything else I can provide that will help identify the gun?

Logan

[Erick Dorr]

Logan, If you remove the screw holding the trigger guard and twist the guard counterclockwise looking at the underside of the guard and the stock wood underneath you will almost certainly find the sn 147 in both places. Make certain you have a proper fitting screwdriver to remove the screw.
Your gun is a dollar grade back action Parker. The 1869 catalog would have listed it as the $110 grade if in either 11 or 12 ga. Most back action guns seen today will have lower grade "decarbonized steel" barrels.
I'd withhold judgement on whether the gun is or isn't 14 ga. until measurements and originality of the chambers are obtained. (Even then I wouldn't know what constitutes a 14 ga. chamber, but I'll bet others here have some pertinent information.)
The 1869 catalog listed 10, 11 and 12 ga. as available.
I hope this info is helpful.
Erick

[John Davis]

Perhaps chambered for a 12B brass shell. If so, a modern 12 (12A, above bore) would not fit and a 16 would flop around.

[Drew Hause]

The barrels are clearly crolle Damascus

1869 catalog

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL1373/6511424/19406549/325553101.jpg

1872 front action locks and 'English Twist' are offered

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL1373/6511424/19406549/325553100.jpg

[Bruce Day]

As in most matters Parker, TPS provides most answers to most questions.

p. 1004 List of the 14 ga guns by SN. The first is SN 4701.

pp. 516, 519, 524 Tables of chamber and bore dimensions.

It is not uncommon that we see alleged 14 ga guns that turn out to be wallowed and bored out 16 gauges and alleged 11's from 12 ga guns.

[edgarspencer]

I no sooner said I thought it could be a 14ga. when it occurred to me it was more likely the 12ga. brass shell chamber. I knew I'd be corrected soon enuf.

[Erick Dorr]

Bruce,
Thanks for indicating the relevant tables.
Unfortunately, TPS isn't definitive in this case since the gun predates written records and Fig. 12.17 lists 14 ga being available in 1869 even though not listed in early listed catalogs.
There is no chamber info for a 12B shell in TPS and the table of chamber data is standardized as of 1920 some 50 years after this particular gun was made.
A 12B seems the best guess but it still remains a guess without the owner taking the initiative to have the chambers and bores measured and originality determined.
This is an interesting gun for which more info is warranted.
Erick

[Logan Strother]

Thanks again to everyone for contributing here, the discussion has been helpful. It seems that the best path forward is to get an expert appraisal (or two or three), to establish vintage and gauge. Can anyone recommend a reputable appraiser in the St. Louis, MO area, or the Northeaster Missouri area more generally? And, what am I likely to have to pay for an appraisal for a gun like this?

Logan

[Mike Franzen]

Hi Logan l for one would be interested to know you found this gun. These old Parker's surface from time to time and I'm always fascinated by their story.

[Mark Ouellette]

Can anyone recommend a reputable appraiser in the St. Louis, MO area, or the Northeaster Missouri area more generally?

And, what am I likely to have to pay for an appraisal for a gun like this?

Logan

Hi Logan,

I recommend reaching out to PGCA members who would not charge you anything more than a cup of coffee for their opinions. Those opinions would be as reliable as those from most gunsmiths that you will find when it concerns a Parker Brothers gun of this vintage, at least in evaluating it as a Parker. For safety such as minimum barrel wall thickness there are many of us who have the tools to measure that. There are of course doublegun smiths such as Brad Bachelder in Grand Rapids Michigan who knows a thing or two about Parkers. Maybe our PCGA members could recommend someone qualified who lives closer to you?

Oh, if you have an interest in Parkers I suggest spending $40 on a PGCA membership. It may be the best money ever spent concerning collecting Parkers!

Mark

PS: Brian Dudley is a gunsmith, PGCA member, and certified Parker Brothers affectionado who is also qualified for this task. He resides in New York.

[Mills Morrison]

Second Mark on that. Looks like you have a very interesting gun

[Logan Strother]

Hi Logan l for one would be interested to know you found this gun. These old Parker's surface from time to time and I'm always fascinated by their story.

Mike - I'm working on the gun's back story now. I think I have it down back as far as the 1940s. Once I have it verified, and hopefully traced further back, I'll happily share it with the group.

[Rick Losey]

if you manage a full genealogy - think about a piece in the Parker Pages

[Dean Romig]

From the locations of the serial number that you have told us and shown us, the gun is most certainly serial no. 147

[Gary Carmichael Sr]

Logan, I would tend to believe it is chambered for the 12-b brass shell, I own ser# 97 and 029 both are back action guns and are chambered 12-B, Try to find a 12-b shell and see how it fits, Gary

[Logan Strother]

I'll try to locate a 12-B to check the chamber size - thanks for the suggestion.

[Logan Strother]

I'd like to clean the gun up a bit - is there anything I should know about cleaning a gun of this age? Is it safe/wise to use modern solvents and oils?

[Mills Morrison]

You would do well to send it to a reputable gunsmith. I have used Brian Dudley who is on this forum and there are others on here as well.