Let's define a "shooter"...

[Greg Baehman]

The term "shooter" comes up quite frequently and it appears to have somewhat differing meanings to different people, so let's try to define what a "shooter" is...

Can a "shooter" also be defined as a collectible gun?

Can a collectible gun also be a shooter?

Is a shooter a worn gun? Is a shooter an altered gun? Is a shooter a collector quality gun that you choose to shoot? Etc.

What is your definition of a shooter?

[Robin Lewis]

"My" definition of a shooter is a Parker that has been shot before and is safe to shoot now. I have one Parker that isn't a shooter....... its a wall hanger. I wouldn't shoot an "new" Parker.

[Dave Suponski]

Greg,For me that question is easy.Any gun I own is a "shooter" because at this point I really have no use for a gun that I am afraid to use.To me the real thrill of owning a Parker is using them for their intended purpose be it hunting or at the traps.

I think in the classic sense of the word a shooter is any gun that is in less than collectible condition but still safe to use but this description may be open to individual interpretation.

[Francis Morin]

The shotgun held by writer Ernest Hemingway is "shooter"-- IMO any shotgun you'll carry through the briars and brush after grouse or have in a goose blind in a pit in a muddy cornfield is a "shooter", ditto the VH single trigger 20 pictured as having been Burt Spiller's grouse gun, also in recent PP issue- Great magazine, our publication is the "A-1 Special" of all the gunning magazines going, again, IMO. Kudos to Austin Hogan and all the contributors for their fine work--

Off topic a tad- at a area Gun Shot today (Sat 27th) mainly looking for some Parker receiver/safety components for a friend- a dealer I know had a 179xxx sn. range 16 bore VH- DT, extractors, barrels reblued, original case colors? and varnish- DHBP-- fit me like a cathcer's mitt did for Johnny Bench- I expected it to be a std. 1 frame- surprise, surprise- it was clearly marked 1 & 1/2 frame size on the lug. Would that have been a special order??:duck:

[Drew Hause]

"The Shooter"
From Shooting By Baron Thomas de Grey Walsingham, Sir Ralph Payne-Gallwey, Lord Charles Lennox Kerr, Archibald John Stuart-Wortley, Gerald Lascelles, Simon Fraser Lovat 1886
http://books.google.com/books?id=MT9NF4BnAFIC&dq=ww+greener+the+gun+and+its+development+9th+edit ion+1910
p. 134
He is a man with a wonderful aptitude for observing the habits of wild birds and animals, combined with all the physical qualities requisite for a good marksman and a country life. He possesses great precision of judgment as to the pace and distance of any moving object, with a wonderful command of eye, hand, and nerve, and usually excels more or less in all the athletic and amusements dear to Englishmen…He looks, and is, thoroughly workmanlike from top to toe, and you will find that all details of his equipment…are as perfect as may be for practical use. He can…run and walk as few men can…He is cool and self-possessed, never a jealous shot, and lets everybody get and keep his respective chances at birds or animals, for he is quite content to obtain his own proper share. He is kind and generous to keepers…is devoted to dogs, and is generally popular.
When shooting, though rarely in a hurry, he never idles, nor does he move about in excitement here and there. (He)…is ever on the watch…and his gun is, by the way he grasps it, also available for instant use. The gun comes to his shoulder just at the right moment without any flurry, and down comes the object at the right moment too; and though he never endeavours to overreach a fellow shooter, or takes any evident precautions to obtain an undue proportion of shots, somehow he seems to get more shooting than anybody else, not really (as it appears) from chance, but because he by instinct knows where to look for game and which direction it will take. He never, unless directly questioned, alludes to his own skill, though others do not fail to do so, and rather gives the idea that he does not himself know how well he shoots. Last, not least, a true sportsman rarely wounds…
On the other hand, a bad ‘unsporting’ shot is a man who…is never satisfied with his shooting or the behaviour of the game…and is forever explaining why he does not shoot better- an explanation no one cares one jot about. Such a man, too, is usually careless with his gun, as safety is the last thing in his mind, and getting shots the first, anyhow and anywhere.

You asked :p

[Greg Baehman]

Thank you for that Rev. Drew...I WAS right when I stated the term "shooter" has different meanings to different people, but I wasn't thinking in terms of him, but rather it.

[Jack Cronkhite]

The term "shooter" comes up quite frequently and it appears to have somewhat differing meanings to different people, so let's try to define what a "shooter" is...

Can a "shooter" also be defined as a collectible gun?

Can a collectible gun also be a shooter?

Is a shooter a worn gun? Is a shooter an altered gun? Is a shooter a collector quality gun that you choose to shoot? Etc.

What is your definition of a shooter?

Greg: Yes to all of the above, with the caveat that "worn" does not mean "unsafe". Every gun I have is a shooter and gets its time in the field although the rifles seem to be relegated to the steel tombs (deserved citation: Francis) Some time ago I started believing that big game was getting more like work than fun after two days of two guys packing a bull elk out of a location that should have been relegated to the camera, not the .270. Day two was a worrisome day. We became concerned we would never find the rest of our prize, as it had snowed heavily and most our tree blazes were not visible. Murphy's Law states that the driven snow will always be from a direction that obliterates a blaze.

"Collectible" itself is subjective. For me, if I want it and acquired it, it becomes part of a collection, therefore it is collectible. "Collectible" need not mean only high condition NIB unfired and all that - although that is very collectible.

Even unsafe crappy condition guns with interesting provenance can be collectible but not a shooter.

I don't see "shooter" as a derogatory term, rather a descriptive term of endearment for the gentleman shooter portrayed in Drew's post.

Here is my definition for the "it":

"Shooter" - a gun that is safe to use.

Example:

http://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/cpg1410/albums/userpics/28884/P1060890sgw.jpg


I think I might be a bit of a Philistine when it comes to a high condition unfired gun. I understand the "caretaker" philosophy but I'm not sure I could resist the temptation to take at least one rooster with it, which then forever changes it, I guess.

BELOW IS SUBJECT TO CORRECTION BY THOSE WHO KNOW FOR SURE
Now I presume every Parker was fired at the factory based on reading about #pellets on a pattern board, so does "unfired" really mean "not fired since leaving the factory"? Could a couple more shots since factory be proven as not being patterning shots? I would not be a good caretaker so I should never acquire a high condition gun (hell, I could win a lottery - maybe)

How many shots does it take before the most discriminating collector can unequivocally conclude a gun is no longer as delivered from the factory?

Good topic

Cheers,
Jack

[Jack Cronkhite]

"The Shooter"....though he never endeavours to overreach a fellow shooter, or takes any evident precautions to obtain an undue proportion of shots, somehow he seems to get more shooting than anybody else, not really (as it appears) from chance, but because he by instinct knows where to look for game and which direction it will take.


Just thought it bore repeating.

Cheers,
Jack

[Dean Romig]

In my humble opinion, a "shooter" (meaning the gun itself) is a gun which has been shot for game or score for enjoyment, not to include for regulation at the factory, and which may or may not continue to be carried and shot today - that being left to the discretion of the current custodian.

My own definition of the term "unfired" is a gun which is in "as new condition" and which shows no evidence of having been fired since leaving the factory where certainly all guns have been fired as an integral part of the manufacturing process in regulating shot count per the standard of customer's order or the order of the superintendant of the factory.

Collectible? Any gun can be termed "collectible" if it fits a particular niche in a gunroom.

[Tim Sheldon]

To me a "shooter" is a gun that isn't too perfect or unsafe or rare to shoot.

An example of too rare, IMO, is say a gun that has a name hammered into the damascus pattern. Could you shoot it, yes. But if you blew the barrel, the loss would be to great to the collecting community.

To shoot a 120 year old mint gun is just selfish.

To shoot an unsafe gun is just foolish.

Tim

[Russ Jackson]

First ,like Dave ,I like to shoot all of my guns ,at the moment ,I have one ,I have owned a while and still haven't shot yet ! With that said ,if I am selling a gun ,and it is a good solid functional gun ,but maybe has had the wood refinished ,or the colors redone ,or perhaps new bluing ,or maybe had a broken stock ,and I replaced it along the way and I know the stock is not serial #'ed to the gun I would advertise this particular gun as a "Good Solid Shooter " ,I had a VHE 12 Ga. that Ivory Beads sold for me a while back with good honest 95 percent plus original condition ,although I am sure this gun would have shot quite well ,I never found the need to pull the trigger or carry it a day in the field ,consequently ,I sold it ,I would not refer to this type of gun as a " Shooter " but a collectible piece ! Just thought I would add my two cents for what its worth ,but it is something how the same question ,can receive so many different opinions !:corn:

[Tim Sheldon]

[QUOTE=Russ Jackson;13997] ,but maybe has had the wood refinished ,or the colors redone ,or perhaps new bluing ,or maybe had a broken stock ,and I replaced it along the way and I know the stock is not serial #'ed to the gun I would advertise this particular gun as a "Good Solid Shooter " QUOTE]

So in the ads, when you see "good solid shooter" it really doesn't mean it shoots well? :)

T

[Dave Suponski]

Come on Tim,You know the drill.....:rolleyes:

[Russ Jackson]

[QUOTE=Russ Jackson;13997] ,but maybe has had the wood refinished ,or the colors redone ,or perhaps new bluing ,or maybe had a broken stock ,and I replaced it along the way and I know the stock is not serial #'ed to the gun I would advertise this particular gun as a "Good Solid Shooter " QUOTE]

So in the ads, when you see "good solid shooter" it really doesn't mean it shoots well? :)

T
I guess that all depends on who's pulling the trigger !:rotf:

[Tim Sheldon]

Come on Tim,You know the drill.....:rolleyes:

So what it really means is buyer beware, if you can't tell whats been done to the gun, better keep doing some exploratory surgery because you are probably going to find the special area that has been worked on but it has only been advertised as a "good solid shooter"

This practice is not good or bad, maybe it is in a various shade of gray. But this is how it happens in lots of dealings.

When it's a fairly high quality gun and it is represented as a good solid shooter, here is where the red flag pop up like there is no tomorrow.

Tim

[tom tutwiler]

Ok. To me a shooter is a functionally sound gun who doesn't have the overall condition or rarity to warrant being stuck in a safe somewhere. Bo Whoop would in some people's mind be a shooter, restocked (twice) and used constantly throughout it's life by its owner (until it vanished of course). However, the provenance of that gun trumps all. Most Fox guys would certainly shoot in HE in that condition. I venture to say there are some well used high end Parkers that fall into the same category. For me in particular a shooter is a gun with mechanical fixes and/or sprucing up that rendered it no longer collectible to most, but certainly worthy of providing a enjoyable outing in the field, whether that field means the game of shoot clay birds, or real birds. Anyway, one person's opinion.

[Dave Suponski]

Tim,Exactly...Thanks for spelling it out...:)

[Russ Jackson]

Tim ; As I read your reply ,I certainly hope its not me you have a bone to pick with , maybe you have been burn't by a seller that wasn't up front and honest about a gun they were selling ,but the part of my reply you forgot to post is where I said , " If I am selling a gun and it is a good solid functional gun ",then this is the way I would advertise the gun !I was just making a point that a gun that has had excessive work ,or after market colors or bluing could still be a nice field gun and a good " Shootin Iron " I think if any one is buying anything ,it is always nice to deal with good reputable honest folks ,but as we all know ,that isn't always the case , when I am selling anything ,I ,will tell the buyer exactly and everything of what I know about the gun in question ,replaced stock ,fore end etc. But in each gun dealing ,it is really up to the individual to make sure what they are purchasing and as you say ,really take the time and do the exploratory surgery !Then make their own mind up as to the condition and if its what they want ,A " shooter " or a Collector piece ! Simply all I was saying !:) Russ

[Francis Morin]

And as this thread asks the ?- shooter and to my way of reading this, maybe not restricted to just Parkers. Yesterday at the area gun show- as always, lotsa overpriced junk, tee shirts, older ammo and such- a real sleeper, but just as if Gina L. walked into a Biker bar full of "biker babes" would catch your eye-

AH Fox 16 CE Grade fully optioned- later Phila gun I would guess, Chromox barrels- either no 2 or no 3 weight range- I wish I knew more about the Fox guns- Kautsky single selective trigger, ejectors, straight hand grip with very long trigger guard tail, field style beavertail- flawless wood to metal fit, not refinished about 80% case colors, checkered buttstock with my dims. to a T- 28" barrels and a brass galazan's leaf chamber and choke feeler gauge showed 2.75" chambers and mod. and full on the chokes-about as nice a Fox as I have ever seen- just didn't have the 5K in my pocket- Is this shotgun a shooter? I don't know, but I would not want to be the one to get the first scratch on the stock or let dried pheasant blood collect on the barrels--

We are all 'custodians in the passage of time' on our possessions, whether they be Parkers or Patek Phillipe or Porche- no matter how many we gather and study and treasure, our life span is limited, and we can only hope what TNB called the "come-afters" in our families will also treasure same, and NOT pawn them for drug $--:crying::duck::eek::duck:

[Dean Romig]

In my opinion an "80% case color remaining" gun is a shooter for sure, if only occasionally.

[David Dwyer]

That is a great question and I think each of us have a unique "line" between shooter and collectible. For me it is a shooter if shooting it regularly will not diminish the value of the gun. I have a few Parkers that I shoot regularly, other high condition guns I shoot rarely because regular shooting will diminish their value and then a rare few that are rare and in high condition and shooting them could cause significant loss of value and also the "loss" of one of a diminishing number of such Parkers. I treasure my shooter as much ,if not more ,than my other Parker but love them all.
David

[Bill Murphy]

Dave Dwyer has posted the "collector's definition" of a shooter. It's all about condition and future value, not about damage or barrels blowing up. If I can shoot a gun or hunt a collector gun without changing the condition or value, it is a shooter, regardless of its monetary value. Some other posters came close, but Dave hit it on the head.

[Jack Cronkhite]

To me a "shooter" is a gun that isn't too perfect or unsafe or rare to shoot.

An example of too rare, IMO, is say a gun that has a name hammered into the damascus pattern. Could you shoot it, yes. But if you blew the barrel, the loss would be to great to the collecting community.

To shoot a 120 year old mint gun is just selfish.

To shoot an unsafe gun is just foolish.

Tim

Tim, you raise some interesting philosophical questions here. I think we all agree that shooting an unsafe gun is foolish.

At what point in a 120 year mint gun's history does it become selfish to shoot it?

Can we agree that it is not the original purchaser's starting point, otherwise, there would be few examples of shooters and lots of NIBs. Shooters would then become the prized find:)

Let's assume an original purchaser died before using it and the widow(er) just stored it until s/he passed and it was inherited 40 years out from factory - still unfired. Is the heir selfish if it were pressed into service at that point? Hunting with Dad's gun that had all but been forgotten, would any of us consider that selfish and not use that gun?

Once it has been used from there on it matters not that it continues to get used.

Now let's assume that the first heir was not the least bit interested in guns and it passed to a grandson who is an enthusiastic hunter/shooter. He is wowed at the beautiful gun he just inherited, lets say 75 years out from the factory. Is he selfish to shoot it?? If he knows nothing about collecting, is he selfish? If he does know all about collecting but choses to use his Grand Dad's gun, is he selfish??

Where is that cut off point between the gun being a tool versus a need to preserve?

Let's assume the gun has remained in the family from the beginning and unfired until it recently became inherited. Is the shooting enthusiast of today selfish if s/he finally uses Great Grand daddy's gun?

Now, lets assume it went to auction rather than stayed in the family but did so at the same points as the example above. When does it become selfish to use the gun for it's intended purpose, as per Mr. Parker ("Much care is bestowed to make it what the Sportsman needs-a good gun"-Charles Parker )

Continuing in a philosophical vein. Is collecting mint/minty guns selfish? From the caretaker perspective are all collectors equipped to provide controlled conditions to preserve wood/metal without deterioration? If not, would the proper thing be to donate any mint gun acquired to somewhere like the Smithsonian or the NRA museums for controlled condition preservation. Even if a collector has the controlled environment, is it selfish to retain them for a select few to ever see or should they be donated for the masses to be able to enjoy as well??

I have had 3 NIBs in life. Winchester 1200 that has seen a lot of shooting. Savage O/U .22/.410 Has not seen a full box of .410 and maybe a box of .22. One Winchester '94 Commemorative which remains unfired.

The unfired NIB is closing in on 40 years out from factory. Is it selfish to decide one day to drop a whitetail with it?

Where is that line that some feel should not be crossed? Is it now or did it arrive decades ago?

These are philosophical questions not directed to anyone specifically.

I grew up with guns being tools, nothing more, even if they were pretty. I don't have answers to my own questions. They can be considered rhetorical or to open/continue debate.

Cheers,
Jack

[Tim Sheldon]

Jack you bring up many good points, especially regarding cut off points. And when a gun is a tool vs. an antique.

But for my mind, to try to keep things simple, lets use Dean Romig's 16ga hammer gun. It is a very early gun in high condition. Say Dean lost his mind and sold that gun to me, I went out and used it and wore 65% of the original finish off of that thing, put a couple of big old dings in the stock, I think that would be selfish. Future generations would not have the fortune to see that gun. Do these guns have to go to museums, I don't think so, but if one of us are so fortunate as to own one or two of these guns, I feel we owe it to future generations to preserve this type of quality in our realm of collecting.
That is just my opinion, I know there are some who say it's a gun and it was made to shoot, and I'm going to shoot her. Well there are plenty of "shooters" out there.
Tim

[Jack Cronkhite]

Say Dean lost his mind and sold that gun to me, ...Tim

I admit I have come to the point where should I have such a gun, it would probably just become eye candy for a while. I don't think Dean would have lost his mind if he sold it to you, but if he "gave" it to you that would be a pretty good indicator. I always liked a bumper sticker I saw years ago "Of all the things I've lost, I miss my mind the most".

Cheers,
Jack

[tom tutwiler]

And as this thread asks the ?- shooter and to my way of reading this, maybe not restricted to just Parkers. Yesterday at the area gun show- as always, lotsa overpriced junk, tee shirts, older ammo and such- a real sleeper, but just as if Gina L. walked into a Biker bar full of "biker babes" would catch your eye-

AH Fox 16 CE Grade fully optioned- later Phila gun I would guess, Chromox barrels- either no 2 or no 3 weight range- I wish I knew more about the Fox guns- Kautsky single selective trigger, ejectors, straight hand grip with very long trigger guard tail, field style beavertail- flawless wood to metal fit, not refinished about 80% case colors, checkered buttstock with my dims. to a T- 28" barrels and a brass galazan's leaf chamber and choke feeler gauge showed 2.75" chambers and mod. and full on the chokes-about as nice a Fox as I have ever seen- just didn't have the 5K in my pocket- Is this shotgun a shooter? I don't know, but I would not want to be the one to get the first scratch on the stock or let dried pheasant blood collect on the barrels--

We are all 'custodians in the passage of time' on our possessions, whether they be Parkers or Patek Phillipe or Porche- no matter how many we gather and study and treasure, our life span is limited, and we can only hope what TNB called the "come-afters" in our families will also treasure same, and NOT pawn them for drug $--:crying::duck::eek::duck:

Since I'm mostly a Fox guy, who dabbles in Parkers, I'd say that (if condition was original) was a very good buy at that price. I can't afford it, but it would be high on the list. What would that gun bring if it was a DHE in similar condition in the same gauge. I'll bet a lot more then 5K.

[Jack Cronkhite]

...there are plenty of "shooters" out there.
Tim
True and then I just had a look at John Dunkle's shooter and see that there are pretty fine looking shooters as well, at least to my tri-focal assisted eyeballs staring at a monitor screen.

Nice shooter (http://parkerguns.org/forums/showthread.php?t=1454&page=2)

[Dean Romig]

But for my mind, to try to keep things simple, lets use Dean Romig's 16ga hammer gun. It is a very early gun in high condition. Say Dean lost his mind and sold that gun to me, I went out and used it and wore 65% of the original finish off of that thing, put a couple of big old dings in the stock, I think that would be selfish. Future generations would not have the fortune to see that gun. Do these guns have to go to museums, I don't think so, but if one of us are so fortunate as to own one or two of these guns, I feel we owe it to future generations to preserve this type of quality in our realm of collecting.
That is just my opinion, I know there are some who say it's a gun and it was made to shoot, and I'm going to shoot her. Well there are plenty of "shooters" out there.
Tim


I'm okay now... I'm okay... (after continuous resurgent waves of nausea since first reading Tim's post) :eek:

I would never presume to tell anyone what to do with his or her guns - even in the case of extremely high condition guns. And in the case, as Tim brought up, of my hammer gun being sold at some point - which certainly will happen - I would not stipulate as a condition of sale or even as a suggestion how that Parker be kept and maintained. If the next custodian of that gun chose to shoot it, full-well knowing it may never have been fired since originally sold, I believe that person will have knowingly and willfully deprived the firearms collectors community of one more pristine factory-fresh relic. And this act, I believe, would certainly be one of selfish disregard. Like Tim said, "there are plenty of shooters out there."