Live pigeon shoot criticized

[Richard Flanders]

Now this is good!! Good for Jim! Wouldn't we all love to attend such a shoot as a show of solidarity?!:corn:

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2014/09/23/sen-jim-inhofe-live-pigeon-shoot-draws-criticism/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+foxnews%2Fpolitics+%28Interna l+-+Politics+-+Text%29

[Bill Holcombe]

I will be honest, pigeon shoots have never been my cup of tea as far as being sporting goes. Then again I am not a big fan of the quail hunts with pen raised quail either.

But that is just my opinion.

[Phillip Carr]

Put me down as one that loves to shoot feral, and hand thrown pigeons. As far as quail I shoot plenty of wild birds, but if it was not for pen raised birds there might be a lot of folks that would never have a chance to work their dogs on a Bobwhite, numbers are down around the country. I support the guys that take advantage of the only opportunities that they might have and support their right to do so.

[Richard Flanders]

Roger that Phil. The article on this issue is ludicrous. People comment that "it doesn't seem like hunting to me".... DUHHHH... it's NOT hunting and is not touted as such. The article is aggravatingly typical of the "antis". If we didn't have pen-raised pheasants and chukars up here we'd not get much upland type shooting.... and my freezer would be much emptier. The RGS group and the dog training groups can go through thousands of birds a year at the preserves down by Anchorage. They provide a huge service up here. I've put something between 200 and 300 pounds of birds in my freezer from our preserves up here. At one RGS Under Broken Wings event everyone hastily departed when it was over because it was colder than hell and getting dark fast and left 3 of us-Trigg, his brother and I, standing there with 40 expired pheasants deal with... no problem!! My freezer did well that trip I can tell you. Another trip Trigg and I did 28 chukars one day for dog training and I brought them all home since his freezer was well stocked... I just ate one tonight. I'd be doing the same if there was a pigeon ring up here.

[Craig Parker]

"That was more like shooting fish in a barrel," Silverstein said. "Personally for me, I enjoy hunting, but I don't think I would have .

But also thinking, wish I would thought of that for a funraiser.Maybe or maybe not:)

[Ed Blake]

Personally I wish the Parker/LC Smith shoot at the Southern used live birds.

[Mark Ouellette]

A few of us did an informal live pigeon shoot with vintage doubleguns last summer. All had a great time. The birds were not so easy to kill.

At the shoot's end the dead birds were taken home by a PGCA member for a country gourmet meal or two!

[Destry L. Hoffard]

I've been to several shoots in PA where they were filming and protesting. I always just smile and wave at the cameras, flipping them the bird doesn't do any good.

Good for this guy, wish I was able to vote for him. That's a man who doesn't care what anybody thinks, and that's my kinda politician.


DLH

P.S. to Ed: Early on in the Parker - Smith Challenge, there was an attempt by a few of us to get into some pigeon shooting down there. The guy who was organizing it had some issue and it never came off I'm sad to say. It wasn't on site, it was at another club somewhere a few miles away.

[will evans]

At the shoot's end the dead birds were taken home by a PGCA member for a country gourmet meal or two!

I hadn't heard of eating a pigeon. Wonder how they taste? At any rate, eat what you kill, right? I figured pigeons were an exception. I have heard about pigeon shoots that used to be held around the town square in small towns, and always thought the exercise was more a matter of pest control. Same as nobody eats the rat they kill in a snap trap.

I have a hard time envisioning myself eating something that lives around the city because I assume their food source is a little rough. Squirrels are a prime example. No problem with a squirrel shot out in the woods, but I can't wrap my mind around eating one I've plugged while it was trying to get in to my roof. Probably no difference between the two, just a preconceived notion on my part.

[Steve Rivers]

It is legal to take feral pigeons by any means in Texas. Pigeon shoots are legal. It is a great test of your shooting skills and a fun event for family and friends.

[Destry L. Hoffard]

We tried eating a couple barn pigeons we shot when we were kids. They tasted about like a dove but were tough as bull whip leather.

In the old days down in PA all the pigeons from the shoots were eaten I'm sure. Poor country folks weren't going to waste that much free meat. I've heard mention of them being boiled and then made into pigeon pie or stew more than once.


DLH

[Norm Growden]

I tried frying some pigeons once. As Destry said, tough. Afterward, I got to thinking that parboiling them might have made a big difference. My neighbor said as a kid (1920s), his mother would fix pigeons anytime the kids would shoot a mess from the barn.

[Destry L. Hoffard]

Wood Pigeons are eaten all the time in the UK.

I wouldn't have a problem eating a pigeon long as it's a country shot bird.


DLH

[Bill Murphy]

I don't think there are many "Country" pigeons at our shoots. I ate a few from PA box bird shoots when I was barely a teenager, but I was not impressed. I never tried it again.

[George Lander]

Fun for all (except for the pigeons) JMHO .... George

[John Dallas]

Our Springer Spaniel club kept a pigeon coop for training birds. Each spring we had to clean out the coop. Two years in a row, we took out 27 trash cans of pigeon poo. Lost my taste for eating pigeon after that

[Ben Rawls]

I think pigeon shooting got it's start in the days when the Passenger Pigeon was a pest. It was a wild bird that numbered in the billions and could descend on a farmers field and consume his years crop in minutes. They were killed by the millions by farmers and market hunters. They had a fatal flaw in their reproductive cycle:they mated in the air in huge swirling masses. It was a hit or miss proposition and very inefficient. As the numbers declined their reproductive rate fell and before anyone knew they were extinct.
They were sold as market birds and were reportedly very tasty.
I feel the same way about city pigeons as previously stated about rats. A Dr. Fox did a PhD study on the ecology of dogs,rats and pigeons in Baltimore in the early '70's. He found that pigeons many times lived on a diet of dog feces. Dogs ran cats off trying to kill rats. Interesting study. As I remember it was published as "The Ecology of the Feral dog" or some such.
A friend once told me a story of a pigeon shoot he went to and thought he was going to be shot himself after starting to miss shots late in the day.

[George Lander]

I think pigeon shooting got it's start in the days when the Passenger Pigeon was a pest. It was a wild bird that numbered in the billions and could descend on a farmers field and consume his years crop in minutes. They were killed by the millions by farmers and market hunters. They had a fatal flaw in their reproductive cycle:they mated in the air in huge swirling masses. It was a hit or miss proposition and very inefficient. As the numbers declined their reproductive rate fell and before anyone knew they were extinct.
They were sold as market birds and were reportedly very tasty.
I feel the same way about city pigeons as previously stated about rats. A Dr. Fox did a PhD study on the ecology of dogs,rats and pigeons in Baltimore in the early '70's. He found that pigeons many times lived on a diet of dog feces. Dogs ran cats off trying to kill rats. Interesting study. As I remember it was published as "The Ecology of the Feral dog" or some such.
A friend once told me a story of a pigeon shoot he went to and thought he was going to be shot himself after starting to miss shots late in the day.

Ben: I understand the rational behind the eradication of what some segments of our ancestors percieved to be pests. Even now there are efforts to eliminate Canada Geese from high end subdivisions. But wouldn't it be a sight to see a swirling mass of thousands of Passenger Pigeons flying as one and mating in the air? I have been to dove shoots here in South Carolina where I was a likely to get shot as were the doves. Some of the idiots there would not even bother to pick up their birds. I do have a problem with folks that use God's creatures only as targets of opportunity.

Best Regards, George

[Destry L. Hoffard]

Ben,

If I was you, I'd buy that book my friend wrote before making statements about passenger pigeons. They ate mast and berries mostly, they weren't a farm pest in hardly any way. They didn't mate while flying in the air either. Their only real mating problem was that they laid a single egg and didn't usually nest every year.


DLH

[QUOTE=Ben Rawls;148048]I think pigeon shooting got it's start in the days when the Passenger Pigeon was a pest. It was a wild bird that numbered in the billions and could descend on a farmers field and consume his years crop in minutes. They were killed by the millions by farmers and market hunters. They had a fatal flaw in their reproductive cycle:they mated in the air in huge swirling masses. It was a hit or miss proposition and very inefficient. As the numbers declined their reproductive rate fell and before anyone knew they were extinct.
They were sold as market birds and were reportedly very tasty.

[John Davis]

And I think the real problem was the deforestation of their nesting grounds. Millions of acres turned to farm land.

[Destry L. Hoffard]

Exactly right John.

You can trace their disappearance by the cutting of the large virgin hardwood tracts in the Midwestern US.


DLH

[Daryl Corona]

Habitat destruction such as deforestation has doomed many species but has been a plus for others such as whitetails, black bears and turkeys. Elk once inhabited the mountains of western Maryland but are now gone, mostly due to the encroachment of civilization. There is a plan to reintroduce them to Maryland. We'll see how that goes.

[Dean Romig]

Pennsylvania has quite a healthy elk herd Thanks to the PA division of wildlife and sportsmen's dollars.

[Robert Rambler]

Virginia is working an Elk heard as well.:)

http://www.roanoke.com/news/virginia/elk-herds-thrive-in-virginia-hills/article_1e11374a-e9ee-11e3-a9f4-0017a43b2370.html

[Morris Davis]

we lost the vote on a pigeon season hear in the mitten state you all had better stop all this knocking of other peoples choice of what and how too shoot at we will not be able to hunt or shoot at any thing. if it not your thing ; do not do it .:banghead::banghead::banghead:

[Destry L. Hoffard]

Pigeon Season in Michigan? There is no season on pigeons anywhere, they're a feral non native invasive species and can be shot without regulation. Do you mean dove season?

Destry

[Richard Flanders]

Righto Destry. I used to shoot pigeons off farmer Beckman's barn across the road from our Michigan farm and put them in the stew pot with whatever other game there was in the freezer. Good stuff! Here in Fairbanks they let the retriever club trap them live around downtown where they make the biggest poo mess. They use them in dog trials and training.

[John Dallas]

Our Springer club had an explosively-launched net, probably 40' x 60' which we would set up wherever there was a mess of pigeons. and we could get permission from the land owner (good luck with that today!). A favorite spot was a granary near the Zilwaukee bridge. Best shot ever was about 450 birds. Depending on whether or not the birds came down, we either came home with a bunch of birds or a hangover.
It's probably a good thing that we didn't know about histoplasmosis - a disease carried in pigeon poo which may case blindness

[Sam Ogle]

Anti gunners will protest using whatever language appeals to the masses: "It isn't like hunting" has been used as anti-second amendment language even though the second amendment didn't have a dang thing to do with hunting.
I, for one, would LOVE to participate in a pigeon shoot. We aren't going to eliminate them by having a few shoots, and it's FUN! One of my first experiences shooting a shotgun was hunting pigeons. Tiptoeing out onto a wooden river bridge, then jumping up & down would launch pigeons out from under the bridge, and the shoot was on! A long deceased brother in law and I learned how to shoot doing this.
Sam Ogle

[Frank Srebro]

For information no matter how you feel on this topic - here's a copy of an email dated yesterday from the VP of the PA Flyers Association. Unless there's some major intervention by Monday, it looks like Live Bird shoots will become illegal in PA. Also note the comment about chukars toward the end of the email.

URGENT REQUEST

October 16, 2014

Dear PAFA Member,

Last night PA House Bill 1750 was passed in the state senate with a vote of 36 to 12 and 2 non-votes. With the passage of this bill, comes an amendment that puts a ban on pigeon shooting, as defined as a non-game bird, and the method by which the birds are shot.

Here is an excerpt of the amended bill:

(C.2) USE OF DOGS, CATS OR OTHER LIVE ANIMALS OR FOWL FOR

TARGETS AT TRAP SHOOT OR BLOCK SHOOT PROHIBITED.--

(1) A PERSON COMMITS A SUMMARY OFFENSE IF THAT PERSON

OPERATES A TRAP SHOOT OR BLOCK SHOOT IN WHICH DOGS, CATS OR

OTHER LIVE ANIMALS OR FOWL ARE USED AS TARGETS.

(2) NOTHING IN THIS SUBSECTION SHALL BE CONSTRUED TO

APPLY TO ACTIVITY WHICH IS AUTHORIZED OR PERMITTED UNDER 34

PA.C.S. (RELATING TO GAME) OR A SPECIAL PERMIT UNDER 58 PA.

CODE CH. 147 (RELATING TO SPECIAL PERMITS).

* * *

(Q) DEFINITIONS.--AS USED IN THIS SECTION, THE FOLLOWING

WORDS AND PHRASES SHALL HAVE THE MEANINGS GIVEN TO THEM IN THIS

SUBSECTION:

* * *

"BLOCK SHOOT." AN EVENT DURING WHICH PARTICIPANTS SHOOT OR

ATTEMPT TO SHOOT TARGETS WHICH:

(1) FROM A FIXED LOCATION WITHIN A PREDEFINED SHOOTING

FIELD, ARE MANUALLY OR WITH ELECTRONIC OR MECHANICAL

ASSISTANCE LAUNCHED OR OTHERWISE IMMEDIATELY PRESENTED TO THE

SHOOTER; OR

(2) WHEN PRESENTED TO THE SHOOTER, ARE:

(I) AFFIXED TO A TETHERING DEVICE; OR

(II) OTHERWISE IMPAIRED FROM ORDINARY MOVEMENT.

* * *

"FOWL." A BIRD, AS DEFINED IN 34 PA.C.S. § 102 (RELATING TO

DEFINITIONS). THE TERM EXCLUDES A GAME BIRD.

"GAME BIRD." AS DEFINED IN 34 PA.C.S. § 102 (RELATING TO

DEFINITIONS).

"TRAP SHOOT." A BLOCK SHOOT.

20130HB1750PN3859 - 3 –

(Chukars (like pigeons) are not considered a game bird, and therefore will also become a target as the antis go after game breeders, dog trainers and their methods of training bird dogs.)

Having watched the entire proceedings on PCN last night, what I found most disappointing was the representation by our legislative “supporters” and their feeble attempts to present their opposition to the bill as amended and dissuade the vote to pass the bill, thereby sending it back to the house for ratification. The proponents of the bill did a superb job of not only stating their view as to why pigeon shooting is not considered a sport or hunting activity, but clearly animal abuse with all its ugliness.

On Monday, October 20, 2014 the bill will come up for a final vote and ratification. Today and tomorrow will be our last opportunity to contact members of the PA House of Representatives to voice your opposition to the passage of this bill.

We urge you and any sportsman you know to contact their representative and ask them to vote no on Monday.

[Dean Romig]

Aren't they cute.... including dogs and cats, thus ensuring the bill will pass. Anyone who votes against this bill, by definition, supports using dogs and cats as targets in trap or bx shoots..... What a deception - What a disgrace!!

[Stephen Hodges]

These folks, the anti's, have a well thought out agenda and plenty of money. As generations become more an more separated from the reality of where there food comes from we will be facing this type of nonsense increasingly. As a hunting and shooting community we need not fight amongst ourselves over particular taking methods of game if legal. That only separates our strength as a voting block and allows the anti's room to move in. Right now there is a critical Bear hunting referendum on the ballot in the state of Maine that would outlaw bear baiting, hounding and trapping. Now I may not like the fact that bears are trapped, but the reality of it Is that is a long standing tradition in Maine and is well regulated. If this passes it will devastate the already fragile economy of Northern Maine. And it will have a negative effect on the efforts to re-build the struggling deer heard there. More bears will mean more predation of fawns in the spring by bears. Folks that have guided for generations will be flat out of business. And if you think for one minute that this is there end game, think again. Bolstered by a win there they will move on to each type of hunting one by one until we cannot hunt anymore. Please stay united on such issues. It is the only way we can win. If you can held this effort please take a minute and send them a donation. Even a small amount can help. JMHO.

http://savemainesbearhunt.com/

[Mark Ouellette]

George and Destry,

Cease and desist from any form of, even an inference of a personal attack. Do not disparage another on the PGCA forums.

Attack the idea not the person.

I trust that from this point forward that all will try to conduct themselves as gentlemen.

Thank you in advance,
Mark

[Eric Eis]

George and Destry,

Cease and desist from any form of, even an inference of a personal attack. Do not disparage another on the PGCA forums.

Attack the idea not the person.

I trust that from this point forward that all will try to conduct themselves as gentlemen.

Thank you in advance,
Mark

Guess I missed those posts.. Why not leave them and shut the thread...

[Sam Ogle]

Reading the newly passed legislation is so very upsetting: "Dogs, Cats & Fowl."
The "Antis" have won a real victory.
By throwing in Dogs & Cats; it SEEMS a reasonable bill. Gee Whiz.....
Sam Ogle

[Bill Murphy]

As I understand it, under the proposed regulations, a chukar is not a game bird in PA, so we can no longer shoot chukars in dog training or game farm shooting. I guess I didn't read it right.

[Destry L. Hoffard]

Just had email from the PA Flyers. They've gotten the bill killed. Apparently pigeon shooting is still legal.

[Brian Hornacek]

PA house does not bring bill up for vote:


Sportsmen planning to participate in pigeon shoots that are scheduled for the upcoming months can get their guns ready. The shoots will go on as planned now that the latest attempt to outlaw them in Pennsylvania has failed.

Legislation that would have explicitly banned this activity along with making it illegal to process, sell or serve dog and cat meat for human consumption died due to inaction by the House on Monday, the chamber's last voting day of the two-year legislative session.

House Majority Leader Mike Turzai, R-Allegheny, had no comment when asked why the bill, which passed the Senate last week by a 36-12 vote, wasn't voted.

However, Republican lawmakers said the legislation drew vociferous opposition in private caucus discussions from members who are advocates of gun rights. They, like sportsmen club members, saw the ban on pigeon shoots as a prelude to bans on other hunting and fishing activities.

"A lot more is at stake than what has been seen on the surface," said Lowell Graybill, president of the Pennsylvania Federation of Sportsmen's Clubs. "We know very well the minute we let the Legislature take a proverbial inch, they'll take a whole yard."

But opponents like Steve Hindi, president of SHARK (SHowing Animals Respect and Kindness,) called that insane. He said other states, such as Oklahoma, have long since stopped pigeon shoots but are still regarded as big hunting states.

"That's like saying if you don't allow drunk driving, it's a slippery slope that'll lead to ending all driving," Hindi said.

Numerous attempts have been made over the years to outlaw pigeon shoots in the state. Graybill said after seeing how this latest effort arose as an amendment to a bill that had to do with eating cats and dogs, he's convinced "this is not the last time this will come up. The question is how long it will be until it comes up or surfaces again."

Rep. John Maher, R-Allegheny, introduced the original bill that dealt strictly with closing a loophole in food safety laws that allowed for the slaughter of cats and dogs for human consumption.

When the Senate added the pigeon shoot ban language, Maher remained supportive of the legislation. He said he considered it in keeping with the anti-animal cruelty theme of his bill.

Maher was disappointed at the prospect that his cats and dogs bill that he offered in response to requests from animal shelters and animal rescue organizations in Western Pennsylvania wasn't going to reach the governor's desk for enactment.

He said he thought Born Free USA's bringing a Jindo, a popular breed of dog that is killed for its meat in Asian cultures, to the Capitol on Monday helped drive home the need for his bill to pass. Maher wasn't immediately available for comment at the end of the session.

With the bill's demise, Graybill said pigeon shoots that are scheduled will go on as planned. However, he voiced some concern that the "radical fringe" that supported the legislation may try to disrupt those events.

Hindi was baffled by Graybill's concern. "They're concerned that peaceful people are going to disrupt the gun-toting inbreds? It shows you the paranoia and cowardice of these people."

[Bill Holcombe]

Um Hindi is an idiot. Pigeon shoots still occur in Oklahoma and what is with the "gun-toting inbreds" remark.

Classey Hindi.

[Destry L. Hoffard]

Hindi is a lunatic, he's all about being famous and making big money from donations.

DLH

[Bill Murphy]

Destry is absolutely correct. There are very few animal rights groups that are not led by radical leftists who are out to disrupt legal blood sport activities, however benign. Mr. Hindi is one of the worst.