HEAD'S UP! J. JULIA CATALOGUE IS NOW ONLINE!

[George Lander]

The J. Julia auction catalogue is now online and take a look at Lot #1191. An eight bore P Grade monster on a #6 frame with 40 inch barrels, SN 94278. As an aside Bo Whoop is there too!:shock:

Best Regards, George

[Pete Lester]

What a beast, 16lbs 9 ounces!

The link to the online catalog is here: http://www.jamesdjulia.com/auctions/div_catalog_288.asp?pageREQ=1

[calvin humburg]

Yes, I would like to make my elbow hurt packing it 4 phesants if it was legal of course. But ive been dreaming about that Gibbs target rifle. What a selection of target rifles.

[Richard Flanders]

Hmmm, I'll take the Purdey underlever 8bore rifle.... or the short little 4-bore maybe engraved "for elephants, rhinoceros and other pachyderms"... I guess! What a cannon. So little money, so many guns... How about the cased 4-bore shotgun for you Destry??

[Pete Lester]

or the short little 4-bore maybe engraved "for elephants, rhinoceros and other pachyderms"... I guess! What a cannon.

I think I have seen that gun. My understanding is it was orginally built as a long barreled fowler but the barrel for the most part was destroyed in a car accident. It was then shortened, sights added and amusingly stamped.

[Bruce Day]

Fair number of nice Parkers and offers an opportunity for some of the people who write in here who seem to have trouble finding a decent Parker. Good guns and they know they will be buying at fair market value. There is a VHE in there with aftermarket engraving that will likely sell for less than the cost of the engraving and extra gunsmith work, if the estimates are correct.

Then there is the famous Becker Fox duck gun that is available. There was lots of discussion here about how could Julia's be offering a lost gun for sale, should have been returned, no clear title, etc, etc, and of course Julia's put all that discussion to bed with a sentence or two and guaranteed to cover any title issues, as one would expect.

[Eric Eis]

There was lots of discussion here about how could Julia's be offering a lost gun for sale, should have been returned, no clear title, etc, etc, and of course Julia's put all that discussion to bed with a sentence or two and guaranteed to cover any title issues, as one would expect.

Good Luck collecting on that guarantee... Didn't help me....

[Francis Morin]

If you end up with the supposed TNB Becker/AH Fox/Bo-Whooper, and I'm predicting that some lucky bidder will end up writing a check for $350,000.00 to get that storied gun, you only have the assurance of Mr. Julia & Co. to back up its authenticity. It begs the question, IMO anyway, as Mr. B went to that great Beaver Dam in the sky in March 1971. Wonder if Mr. Julia has ever suggested to Mr. Puglisi to invest in sand pounding gear? Huumm.

I don't care what their Wes Dillon says about it being the "Real Deal" all these years whereabouts unknown raise a big cloud of suspicion for me. "Doubting Thomas" from the Bible should have been made a Saint, as I buy into his mantra 110% when it comes to my dinero on the line. Not to worry lads, I have the chance of a ice cream cone in Hades of playing in that big buck league. Man has to know his limitations, including disposable dinero!!:banghead::duck::banghead::duck::banghead:

[Dave Suponski]

I dunno...Bo-Whoop has been inspected and reinspected and re re inspected by some of the most knowledgable people in the doublegun industry and also by some very very knowledgable Fox collectors and has been deemed authentic. I don,t think it will bring the $ the "Czars" gun brought but ya never know. When the gavel falls...end of story...

[Francis Morin]

Easy for me to say of course, as I am nowhere in the "chips" for that item, which may well leave the Czar's A1-Special 12 "in the dust"--A lot fewer AH Fox guns made than Parkers, LC Smiths and Ithacas- regardless of grade, gauge, place of mfg. etc. So the scarcity of those big Becker "Barrels Not Guaranteed" HE 12 Magnums will also affect market price point.

Just for the "hay" of it, wonder if Fox might have sold more in both 12 and 20 bore if they had NOT put that possibly ill-advised stamping on the flats- My understanding is, it referred to pattern %, not the bursting point of the barrels with stout loads being fired.

I also meant to support Brother Eis- Julia's should have returned his $ NQA if the barrels on his 16 DHE Damascus (or Titanic Steel) either way were not properly represented or gauged by a knowledgeable employee at Julia's prior to being offered for sale. To "dodge or duck" on such a transaction is shortsighted, IMO- but I share what I understood Eric's "frustrations" may have been regarding that transaction. Another reason why I only buy shotguns or rifles from private parties I know personally, NOT on line auction sites or Julia's or Amoskeeg or RIA-- ain't my "bag" I'd guess!:rolleyes::rolleyes::nono::nono::nono:

[Austin W Hogan]

Let us not forget that about two years ago, Parker Pages carried a photograph of a very youthful Lawrence Del Grego, and a thirty ish Babe DelGrego, holding two Parker Invincibles.
At the time when those photos were taken, the printed media considered the Invincibles "lost" or "imaginary".

I realize Parker Pages is print media; but I refuse to join the mainstream.

Best, Austin

[E Robert Fabian]

I think the real issue here is who is the rightful owner-s of the gun. It doesn't look like it belongs to anyone but the family of the Buckingham's. Looks like a few people are going to make a sizable sum on gun that belongs to someone else. It's not like his name wasn't on it.

[George Lander]

Robert: If you read the full narrative in the description of the gun in Julia's catalogue it appears that the matter of ownership has been settled both with Nash's heirs and with the insurance company. However, if I were purchasing the gun I believe that I would secure a Lloyd's policy to cover ownership.

Best Regards, George

[E Robert Fabian]

George I'm not talking about statue of limitations or the monetary payment Nash may have received from his insurance co, I think ethically the gun belongs to Nash's heirs unless he or his family sold it or gave it to someone.

[Francis Morin]

In an ideal world, perhaps the fortunate winner of the auction next month in Maine may consider donating it to the DU Museum in Memphis, the home of the late "Shootin' Est Gentleman" as I like to think of "Mr. Buck"!! Nash was on the More Game Birds For America which morphed into DU in 1937, he was a gentleman, a true sportsman, a great writer and story teller, and most likely the finest wingshot of his time and era. As a DU Sponsor, I'd like to see that donation occur, doesn't mean it will happen of course!

By the by, does anyone know what happened to the Czar's Parker that Jack Puglisi bought a few years ago from Julia's??: Was it resold at a profit, or is it in a display as I understand the Invincibles are?:cool:

[Eric Eis]

I think the real issue here is who is the rightful owner-s of the gun. It doesn't look like it belongs to anyone but the family of the Buckingham's. Looks like a few people are going to make a sizable sum on gun that belongs to someone else. It's not like his name wasn't on it.

I feel sorry for whoever buys this gun, as there is no proof of ownership :shock: except what Julia's says, sorry no, I am not going to go there...... Go ahead believe them .... I did that once not again

[Bruce Day]

Regardless, my prediction $175,000 and that there will several knowledgeable collectors in the running.

[Francis Morin]

I am sorry that your experience with Julia's was not what it should have been, IMO- and after reading your responses here. I also share your feelings, if I read you correctly, about Julia's "dropping the ball", as I have reason to believe they don't always pay a "finder's fee" for some of the items, and not just firearms, that find their way into their realm.

To try to be fair, in a basically unfair world, I would still have my doubts as to both the authenticity and the questions raised herein about the rightful ownership of "Bo Whoop" by Nash Buckingham's heirs- and I would have them if RIA or Amoskegg or any other well known gun auction house were handling this auction item. I have no real "axe to grind" personally with Julia's, but I am a bit like the late Robert Ruark, ie: Your Most Observant Servant- with the operating word being OBSERVANT-- I know you from PGCA and also meeting and shooting clays with you at Lapeer last April, I don't know Mr. Julia at all, Wes Dillon a little bit (from Cabela's) so based on your dealing on the DHE 16, I would tend to avoid any purchase from Julia's. IMO, and I was educated into the area of fair and honest gun dealings by Bill Jaqua, who had the universal policy, whether on a Purdey 20 bore or a Trojan 16 gauge- 3 day return for full refund No Questions Asked.

Call me an old fashioned guy, and you would be dead money right in that, but I still believe that is the only reputable way to sell firearms yet today and build a solid reputation for the long-run. Hope to see you at Lapeer in April, Paul Harm and his crew put on a first-class shoot!!

[Robert Rzepiela]

Family has no claim. They took the insurance settlement.

If I was thinking about buying I would have my accountant research the insurance company which paid out the money. If this insurance was acquired by another one which was than acquired by another which was than acquired by .. and so on, the buyer may have a problem.

I am pretty sure there are few insurance houses which are checking their records of mergers and acquisitions now...

[Robert Delk]

I would have to have a heart to heart with the known heirs of Mr. Buckingham and see how they felt about the sale before I could bid with a clear conscience.I do believe that if we were talking about something of relatively low value that it would have been returned to the heirs when it was found out who had owned it originally.

[Eric Eis]

Francis, I am looking forward to seeing you at the Lapeer shoot, and having a chance to shoot with you and the rest of the MI boys again

I am not going to respond to any more messages on this thread. As most people know ,what I feel about this auction company I can not speak about in public (even though it makes my blood boil) so I will leave it at that.

[George Lander]

There was a few years back a fellow named Tommy Thompson who, after many years of searching and hundreds of thousands of dollars spent, discovered the resting place of the S.S. Central America off the coast of the Carolinas. As soon as he began to bring up the gold coins the insurance company vultures swooped in to make their claims. The Federal Admiralty Courts, wisely, declared what Tommy found was lost and abandoned and awarded him full rights. Insurance companies collect their premiums religiously but are not so religiously inclined to pay their claims, even when totally just. Nash and his family were compensated for the loss at the time, we presume at the fair market value at the time. I don't know what the dollar figure was but twenty years or so later Burt Becker wrote that he could not build a replacement for Bo Whoop for less than $750.00. Nash sold Bo Whoop II to Dr. Chubby Andrews for X dollars. What would it be worth today if it was to come to market? I have no dog in this fight and I'm not going to be a bidder, but if every family descendant could lay claim to something an ancestor lost or sold at the "then" price we all might be coughing up some of our prized guns.

Just My Humble Opinion......George

[Robert Delk]

Good point.

[Robert Delk]

What would be the case if Mr. Buckingham were still alive? I would bet there would be a call to return the gun to him for a nominal sum given his status and history with the gun.I think that someone with deep pockets would ,indeed ,buy the gun and return it to him as a gesture of of good will towards a sporting icon.I realize this is all moot but I still think this whole thing opens up some serious ethical questions.

[Francis Morin]

Not trying to compare apples to avocados here, but IMO, a way far simpler situation re: The Czar's 12 bore A1-Special- even if his family hadn't been killed in 1917, after the Revolution, Lenin, Stalin and others of that evil ilk would most likely not been interested in a firearm made in America for a fallen Czar, the last of the Romanoff line. Had they laid claim to it, and by some 'fluke" obtained it, Stalin (Man of Steel) most likely would have had it melted down ina foundry and made into a tanks or Mosin-Nagant rifles--

Very few Gentleman/Sportsmen/Writers have had the influence on generations of American outdoorsmen that the late Nash Buckingham did. He lived and wrote and shot and judged field trials in way different times then we see today, unfortunately.

I hope that whoever ends up with this AH Fox, in itself a fine shotgun even without the stamping on both barrel breechs that might indicate it is "Bo-Whoop", will consider donating it to either the DU Museum in Memphis or perhaps to the Cody Museum, in honor and in memory of "Mr. Buck"--

And in closing, Eric- your "restraint" on this thread is admirable. In my case, there was no written agreement with Julia, but I'm "old school" I guess, I believe a man's word is his bond, and like to be able to do business with a handshake--most likely that makes me a bit of a dinosaur I suppose. And as the lawyers wisely note- a verbal contract is NOT worth the paper it was NOT written on- so, you move on, and chalk it up to experience.

I'm glad our host Paul and Co. has a three day event set up in April- I may get a motel room for Friday night, so I can shoot Friday, socialize, and be set for Saturday- If that jibes with your plans- perhaps some of us can get together for dinner Friday night- I have about a 3 hour drive each way from West MI--no big deal--but worth considering-

Hope we will have some BP events too- I'm presently working on a older Grade 1 12 ga. LC Smith with Chain Damascus barrels-=nothing like the smoke and smell of BP in the early Spring air-sorta gives a man a reason for living--:rolleyes:

[George Lander]

The Julia catalogue arrived today and there is a four page spread on Bo-Whoop with a great picture of Mr. Buck and a dead Canada goose in his right hand with Bo-Whoop in the crook of his left arm. There is a very complete history as well. IT WILL BE INTERESTING! Jim Julia warrants clear title in the description.

Best Regards, George

[Robert Rzepiela]

Do they say how they will "warrant" the gun ?

[Eric Eis]

"Do they say how they will "warrant" the gun ?"

Thirty seconds or thirty feet whichever comes first.....:rotf:

[George Lander]

Robert & Eric: What the catalogue says & I quote: "James D. Julia will guarantee clear title to the buyer of the gun now and in the future."

I believe that says it all.

Best Regards, George

[Robert Rzepiela]

thanks George.

Well, this mean absolutely nothing.

Problem is that modern insurance companies rarely "disappear". There is always a value in policy holders and premiums they pay, so when there is trouble in the business, state regulators step in and sell assets to another insurance company. Kind of like what is going on with failing banks now on Federal level. The sign changes on the brick, rest stays the same.

Well, if someone has ~200K to spent on an old gun, they have much
better lawyers on retainers than I could ever efford.

[James Brown]

The "guarantee" should be in writing, specific to the buyer and carefully drafted to bind
the heirs, administrators, executors, successors and assigns of the Guarantor and the Guarantor's corporation, otherwise the buyer could have a tough litigation row to hoe if a claim had to be made.
JMHO, James.

[Bruce Day]

George, see what you started? I know, you thought you were just giving a heads up so that if people were interested, they might find a nice Parker at the Julia auction.
But its kind of like a stock car race; the crowds are attracted to the noise and roar and waiting for a bloody wreck.

[Eric Eis]

Robert & Eric: What the catalogue says & I quote: "James D. Julia will guarantee clear title to the buyer of the gun now and in the future."

I believe that says it all.

Best Regards, George

Well George considering what they did to me, Mr Julia saying clear title means very and mean very little to me.....:cuss: I learned the hard way with him...:nono:

[George Lander]

Bruce: My Daddy once told me: "You can please some of the people all of the time. You can please all of the people some of the time. You will never, however, please all of the people all of the time" and "No good deed goes unpunished".

Eric: I am sorry for you bad experience with Julia's. I have bought from them a number of times and have been most satisfied. If I were you I would direct my complaint directly to Jim Julia by registered mail. It's possible that you were dealing with some flunky.

Best Regards, George

[Francis Morin]

I do NOT know Mr. Julia, but his firm does have an excellent reputation. I do know Eric, and so does he. It is unfortunate that this problem Eric reported to us occured, and looking at from maybe not a objective but an outsider's view, and with that great 20-20 hindsight- it would seem that someone, possibly without Mr. Julia's direct knowledge, "dropped the ball" re: The 16 DHE Eric apparently purchased.

IMO here, if Julia's had their "usual??" mix of fine doubles sans the reported "Bo Whoop" up for next Month's auction, perhaps not so much tempest in the teapot. In it very insightful that so many members here, at least by my count anywas, are well informed as to how the Insurance Companies operate- apparently there is no statute of limitations as to possible claim to this famous shotgun by the Buckingham family heirs, etc.

I think it is also safe to say that anyone with the "deep pockets" to be in the bidding for such a storied shotgun will most likely have some first rate legal counsel on retainer to guide him on this. In fairness to Mr. Julia, if I have read this thread correctly, especially from friend George Lander who has apparently dealt with same gentleman in the past, if he is going stand behind this sale, and has said so "publicly" then, in the words of the Bard: "Now cry Havoc and let slip the dogs of war" even those of the National in the Hobart Ames era-:eek::duck:

[Eric Eis]

"If I were you I would direct my complaint directly to Jim Julia by registered mail. It's possible that you were dealing with some flunky."

George, Bill Taylor was the man that measured the bores (I talked to him directly) at the Vintagers I talked to Wes Dillion who talked to Mr Julia so I guess I would not consider those men "flunky's" :nono: No they made a big mistake and would not agree that they did anything wrong granted it was a couple of months after the fact. But if you buy a gun like the Bo Whoop and find out six months or a year and get taken to court, I don't think Julia's is going to be very helpful. I agree with James Brown if everything is not in writting I would not touch that gun regardless what Mr Julia guarantee's cause I think you would be :banghead: