Chokes and Chambers

[Sam Hershfield]

While he was refinishing the Damascus barrels, my gunsmith told me my "new" 1891 Parker GH 12 with 30" tubes had 2 1/2 chambers and Full/Full chokes. Sound right?

[Steve Havener]

Yes. Your Parker was intended to shoot the then standard 2 5/8th shell but Parker intentionally cut the chamber short to get a better gas seal when the shell was fired.

[Bill Holcombe]

So what size shells would you shoot in such a gun? I have read on here where people say to go ahead and shoot standard 2 3/4 shells in such chambers, whereas others have said not to.

[Steve Havener]

http://www.rstshells.com/store/m/2-12-Gauge.aspx

Others say 2 3/4 inch shells are acceptable but if you chose to use 2 3/4 inch shells you should be aware of the chamber pressure that they produce. I really recommend that you not exceed 9500 psi and a shot charge of 1 ounce to keep recoil energy down to protect your 125 year old wood.

[Dave Noreen]

Or, was it chambered to shoot brass shells which did come in 2 1/2 inch length? What are the bore diameters?

P.S. 1891 was the year that Union Metallic Cartridge Co. began offering their loaded CLUB paper shells with the extra cost option of being loaded with American Wood or Schultze smokeless powders. While the price of the loaded shells varied from $23.50 per thousand for the lightest 20-gauge shells to $32 per thousand for the heaviest 10-gauge shells, the American Wood was $10 extra per thousand for 20- thru 12-gauge shells and $12.50 extra in 10-gauge. Schultze was $15 extra in 20- thru 12-gauge and $20 extra in 10-gauge.

[Bruce Day]

If you measure a Winchester or Remington shot shell you will find that they are 2 5/8 extended

Parker recommended three loads for your gun
1. 1 oz and 2 3/4 dre This was said to be a nice bird load
2. 1 1/8 oz. and 3 dre. This was the standard 12 ga patterning load for all except the heaviest 12 s. Your gun would have been patterned with this load. It still remains today as the standard trap load.
3. 1 1/8 and 3 1/4 dre.

See patterning hang tags and Parker's The Small Bore Shot Gun as source

All of these loads are suitable for your Parker as made and are commercially available today from many sources . Some people have their own favorite loads but the most informed place to start is with the Parker documents

[Brian Dudley]

I think there might have been some confusing information conveyed earlier on in this post.

Chambers should measure 2-5/8" long in your gun. The intended shell length would have been 2-3/4". The 1/8" shorter chamber was to create a better gas seal which was intended to help with shot performance.

To my knowledge, there never was a 2-5/8" shell. True 2.5" long chambers in this time period was an English thing.

[Pete Lester]

To my knowledge, there never was a 2-5/8" shell. True 2.5" long chambers in this time period was an English thing.

The 2 5/8" 12ga was the standard before the 2 3/4" shell was made available. I have seen boxes of old 2 5/8" factory ammo for sale in the used/junk bin at the Kittery Trading Post. If my memory serves me the Winchester M97 was the first gun designed to specifically shoot 2 3/4" 12ga ammo, which had higher pressures than the 2 5/8" shell. Maybe Dave Noreen can fill in some of the details here.

[Bill Holcombe]

So if ordering RST, would you order 2 3/4 or 2 1/2?

[Steve Havener]

If you measure a Winchester or Remington shot shell you will find that they are 2 5/8 extended



Bruce that is not correct. Just checked a Winchester AA and Remington Nitro 27 Handicap and the case length is exactly 2 and 3/4 inches for each.

[Bruce Day]

See below

Also see the attached Parker chamber length table.

[Rich Anderson]

I error on the side of caution and shoot 2 1/2 inch shells in everything from 12 to 410. I don't have to worry about anything that way and if your going to buy shells I would use the 2 1/2 inch RST. Morris just sent me some 16 & 20 ga paper shells that I will use for birds. You can't beat a vintage shotgun and paper shells.

[Jack Kuzepski]

Plastic shells may reload easier and more times but they still don't equal paper, particularly for the smell!

Jack

[Steve Havener]

Bruce I don't know where or when you got you AA hull but they short changed you.

[Dave Noreen]

Paper Shot Shell Lengths

In reviewing old Union Metallic Cartridge Co. catalogues and price lists, the first time I see mention of extra length paper shot shells is in the 1889 catalogue, before they were offering any smokeless powder shells. Smokeless powder begins appearing in the 1891 catalogue. After the introduction of smokeless powder loads the first catalogue I’ve found to offer longer paper shells is 1895 where they offer 10-gauge shells in 2 5/8 and 2 7/8 inch lengths, 12-gauge shells in 2 5/8 or 2 3/4 inch lengths, while 16-gauge is just 2 9/16 inch and 20-gauge just 2 1/2 inch. In the September 1896 catalogue they offer 12-gauge paper "Smokeless" shell in lengths up to 3-inch. All brass 10- and 12-gauge NPEs were offered up to 3 1/4 inch length. By the April 1899 UMC Catalogue things are really taking off and they've added 2 3/4 and 2 7/8 inch lengths to both 16- and 20-gauge offerings, and the 3 1/4 inch 12-gauge length in their "Trap" shell. By the May 1900 UMC catalogue the 3-inch 16- and 20-gauge length is being offered in their salmon colored "Smokeless" shell and their green colored "Trap" shell.

That pretty much covers paper shot shell lengths and when they appeared. So, by 1900 we had paper 12-gauge shells in 2 5/8, 2 3/4, 2 7/8, 3 and 3 1/4 inch lengths; 16-gauge shells in 2 9/16, 2 3/4, 2 7/8 and 3-inch lengths; and 20-gauge shells in 2 1/2, 2 3/4, 2 7/8 and 3-inch lengths.

From the 1890s into the early 1920s, these longer shot shells didn't carry a heavier payload than one could get in a 2 3/4 inch 12-gauge shell, just more/better wadding, which many serious Pigeon shooters believed to be an advantage. The maximum smokeless powder loads offered in the 2 5/8 inch 12-gauge shell and the 2 1/2 inch 20-gauge shell were a bit lighter than those offered in 2 ¾ inch and longer shells. Early on, one could get smokeless powder loads as heavy as 3 1/4 drams pushing 1 1/4 ounce of shot in a 2 5/8 inch paper shell. Between 1903 and 1910 our manufacturers phased out the 1 1/4 ounce loads in the 2 5/8 inch shell. By 1910 the 2 5/8 inch paper shell was only being offered with 1 1/8 or lighter payloads, and one needed to go to the 2 3/4 inch or longer shells for 1 1/4 ounce loads.

Our U.S. manufacturers continued to offer the 2 5/8 inch 12-gauge shells until just after WW-II.

[Pete Lester]

Paper Shot Shell Lengths

After the introduction of smokeless powder loads the first catalogue I’ve found to offer longer paper shells is 1895 where they offer 10-gauge shells in 2 5/8 and 2 7/8 inch lengths,

I wonder where all the 10 gauge guns are with 2 1/2" and 2 3/4" chambers for 2 5/8" and 2 7/8" shells? :confused:

[Sam Hershfield]

Thanks guys, I appreciate all the input, but I have to say I'm a little confused with the differing opinions offered to my original post.

So, is there a definitive answer to:

1. Were the 1891 12 ga. Damascus Parker GH's shipped with a 2 1/2, 2 5/8 or 2 3/4 inch chamber?

2. I've just ordered RST 12 Ga. • 2 1/2" • MaxiLite • Vel. 1125 • 1 oz. Load #9 shot. Is that the proper load for my 123 year old GH? I called RST and they said it was.

3. Was it normal to ship Full/Full chokes in a GH?

Thanks again for all your knowledge.

Sam

[charlie cleveland]

would love to run up on some of those odd lentgh shell s such as the 3 inch 16 ga and the 12 ga 3 1/4 inch...i have a umc 8 ga in brass hull thats 3 1/2 3 1/4 and 3 inch need a 4 inch 8 ga and did see a gun marked 4 1/2 inch chamber...charlie

[Dave Noreen]

1. Hard to say without additional information.

2. While no one can tell you over the internet what ammunition may or may not be safe in a given gun, those RSTs should be great in a sound example. I'd certainly shoot them in my 1889 vintage heavy 2-frame GH-Grade.

3. Yes.

[Dave Noreen]

I just grabbed up a variety of modern nominally 2 3/4 inch fired plastic hulls from my supplies. Winchester compression formed AA 12- and 28-gauge and a 12-gauge Super-X Pheasant, Remington Premier STS 12- and 28-gauge and 12-gauge Remington Express, and a 20-gauge Active all measure between 2 5/8 and 2 11/16 long. The only hull I picked that came near 2 3/4 inch was a Western Xpert Mark 5 16-gauge and it was still abour 3/64 shy. A 2 1/2 inch compression formed AA .410-bore shell was an honest 2 1/2 inch.

Just grabbed some fired old paper cases that have been sitting on my bookcase. The 20-gauge Peters High Velocity, the 20-gauge Remington Nitro Express, the 20-gauge Federal and the 28-gauge Western Super-X are all 2 21/32" long.

I measured all these shells sitting upright on a flat surface with a machinist's scale.

[Bruce Day]

Bruce I don't know where or when you got you AA hull but they short changed you.

Well I'll be. They sure did and lots of times too. And so did Remington with those sts shells. No wonder I missed.

Sam, TPS has a whole chapter on chambers and bores. The answers to your questions are yes yes and yes. I have a bunch from 1883 to 1910 and chamber size is not something I worry about. Some I shoot at ducks with some heavy commercial loads , when I go duck hunting which is once a year or so to remind me about sitting in an icy blind and getting up at 4 am.

[Dave Noreen]

would love to run up on some of those odd lentgh shell s such as the 3 inch 16 ga and the 12 ga 3 1/4 inch...i have a umc 8 ga in brass hull thats 3 1/2 3 1/4 and 3 inch need a 4 inch 8 ga and did see a gun marked 4 1/2 inch chamber...charlie

A couple of auctions ago SoldUSA had a 3-inch 16-gauge shell in their offerings --

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v316/Ansleyone/Winchester/LeaderNo163-inchHead_zpse202d0d6.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v316/Ansleyone/Winchester/LeaderNo163-inchSide_zps273ca479.jpg

I'm beginning to think the old Pigeon and Trap shooters shot up all those long 12-gauge shells!! I am sure not finding any in the auctions. I've gotten a pretty good selection of 3-inch 20-gauge shells from 1910 to the early 1930s vintage, but the 12-gauge just haven't come my way. From the introduction of the Lubaloy shot in 1929 thru 1949, Western Cartridge Co. offered a 12-gauge 3-inch Super-X Pigeon and trap load with 1 1/4 ounce of #7L or #7 1/2L, but I've yet to see a box of those appear.

A few years ago while bird hunting out in the Channeled Scablands I picked up a fired Winchester Leader 3-inch 12-gauge shell of about 1920 vintage. I have no idea how long it was laying out there but the paper tube was faded white except for about a 1/2 inch wide strip that was against the ground that is still pinkish. While it is dry country, I'm sure someone was out there hunting using up Grandpa's old shells in much more recent times.

[Dave Noreen]

would love to run up on some of those odd lentgh shell s such as the 3 inch 16 ga and the 12 ga 3 1/4 inch...i have a umc 8 ga in brass hull thats 3 1/2 3 1/4 and 3 inch need a 4 inch 8 ga and did see a gun marked 4 1/2 inch chamber...charlie

A couple of auctions ago SoldUSA had a 3-inch 16-gauge shell in their offerings --

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v316/Ansleyone/Winchester/LeaderNo163-inchHead_zpse202d0d6.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v316/Ansleyone/Winchester/LeaderNo163-inchSide_zps273ca479.jpg

I'm beginning to think the old Pigeon and Trap shooters shot up all those long 12-gauge shells!! I am sure not finding any in the auctions. I've gotten a pretty good selection of 3-inch 20-gauge shells from 1910 to the early 1930s vintage, but the 12-gauge just haven't come my way. From the introduction of the Lubaloy shot in 1929 thru 1949, Western Cartridge Co. offered a 12-gauge 3-inch Super-X Pigeon and trap load with 1 1/4 ounce of #7L or #7 1/2L, but I've yet to see a box of those appear.

A few years ago while bird hunting out in the Channeled Scablands I picked up a fired Winchester Leader 3-inch 12-gauge shell of about 1920 vintage. I have no idea how long it was laying out there but the paper tube was faded white except for about a 1/2 inch wide strip that was against the ground that is still pinkish. While it is dry country, I'm sure someone was out there hunting using up Grandpa's old shells in much more recent times.

[Pete Lester]

See below

Also see the attached Parker chamber length table.

Bruce did you wash those hulls in hot water? Maybe yours shrunk in the hot Kansas sun? Up here in the cool climate of the northern New England the AA and STS 12ga hulls are 2 3/4". :rotf:

[Bruce Day]

I'll send more photos when I get back to my reloading bench at the other house. You guys up on the northeast always bragging about how long it is. Sheesh

[Sam Hershfield]

Well I'll be. They sure did and lots of times too. And so did Remington with those sts shells. No wonder I missed.

Sam, TPS has a whole chapter on chambers and bores. The answers to your questions are yes yes and yes. I have a bunch from 1883 to 1910 and chamber size is not something I worry about. Some I shoot at ducks with some heavy commercial loads , when I go duck hunting which is once a year or so to remind me about sitting in an icy blind and getting up at 4 am.

Bruce, thanks for giving me answers. I'll try the 2 1/2's first and see what happens.

I don't have TPS...maybe my wife will buy them for me for Xmas

Sam

[Rich Anderson]

Sam you can do anything with a 2 1/2 inch shell that a 2 3/4 inch one will do except you never have to worry about chamber length.

[Hal Sheets]

Gentlemen,
I can see that a star crimped 2 3/4" shell, is 2 3/4" long when fired.
My question is: In the early 1900's, were the old rolled crimp shells, 2 3/4" long after being fired or were they a little shorter. I have no fired OLD roll crimped shells handy to measure.

[Larry Stauch]

I'll send more photos when I get back to my reloading bench at the other house. You guys up on the northeast always bragging about how long it is. Sheesh

You know I don't have to watch TV for entertainment; it's all right here.

Education, entertainment, development of the common shooter and just plain fun!

You guys are a regular PBS all in one.:rotf:


BTW, on page 67 of the "Winchester's Finest The Model 21" by Ned Schwing it shows a photograph of a Model 21 marked on the side of the barrel:
"Winchester 16 Gauge
3" Cham."

So at some point they were out there.:bigbye:

Last year Jim King had at 3" 16 Gauge Model 21 for sale on GI.

[Steve Havener]

Gentlemen,
I can see that a star crimped 2 3/4" shell, is 2 3/4" long when fired.
My question is: In the early 1900's, were the old rolled crimp shells, 2 3/4" long after being fired or were they a little shorter.

2 3/4 inch shells are 2 3/4 inches long (within manufactures tolerance) weather they were closed with a folded (star) crimp or with an over shot card and roll crimp.

[Hal Sheets]

I have in hand, two 'factory loaded' OLD rolled crimp cartridges:
1/ 20ga., RED HEAD-RELIANCE, length is 1 5/16" base to roll
2/ 16ga., WESTERN-XPERT, length is 1 5/16" base to roll

I take it these would be about 2 1/2" when fired; so they are 2 1/2" cartridges!
I can check the 20ga., but don't have a 16ga. gun at the moment.

[Sam Hershfield]

Just got my RST 12 Ga 2 1/2" Maxilites with 1 oz of #9's for my 1891 GH. If I'm measuring right, base to crimp is 2 1/8". Fired, it should be 2 1/2". Can't wait to light them off in my "new" Damascus barrels brought back to life by Buck Hamlin.