Damascus Barrels- yes or no?

[Bill Holcombe]

Just curious what the opinion of actually shooting Damascus barreled shotguns is by people on this board? I ask because I think some of the ones I have seen are gorgeous and would love for my next parker-a long way off to have such barrels.

However, I was raised being told they were dangerous to shoot. That is a hard lesson to shake off. Also, I just got done reading Best Guns and McIntosh unequivocally states that D barrels are not safe to shoot. Now I know some on here don't consider him an expert, but the man knew a lot more about doubles then I do and he took a pretty strong stance on the basic idea that a Damascus barrel is not safe to shoot. Granted this was in 89 so it may have predated the tests showing Damascus barrels can be fired safely.

Anyway, just looking for talks knowledge and experiences.

Thanks.

[Rick Losey]

this is a topic for which a search on this board will give you days worth of reading material

it seems that they have become what I shoot most of the time lately,

the readers digest version - damascus and twist barrels in proper condition (good wall thickness and no or light pitting) are generally considered safe to shoot with proper loads by most of us

NOW- ask what a proper load is :corn: :rotf:




I do prefer lower pressure loads - no matter what the barrel material - they are old guns with old wood

[Larry Frey]

Bill,
I certainly hope their safe to shoot. The last three guns I’ve bought are all Damascus and will be in the woods this fall.

I also agree with Rick and shoot low pressure loads in all my guns not just the Damascus.

[Russ Jackson]

Hello King and Welcome to the PGCA ,I see you are a relatively new member ,this is the place to be ! I beleive most of this group read all of the Sherman Bell articles in The Double Gun Journals on Damascus Barrel testing and I would guess there is better than a 50Percent following here that shoot Damascus barrels on a regular basis ! As already said ,barrel wall thickness and condition is a must but it is on any type of barrel ! I like the low pressure loads from RST also as do many of the Guys on this forum !The only suggestion I would like to make is that if you decide to buy a Dam. Barreled gun on one of the internet auction sites like Gun Broker etc. ,that you make sure there is an inspection period so you are able to either measure the Barrel wall thickness yourself or have a professional do it ,in my opinion ,this is a must ,if the seller is selling with a no return ,than I pass them by ! Again ,just my opinion but thin pitted barrels from a seller that gives a bad description are a costly mistake Good luck in your search for a nice Damascus barreled Parker ! Russ

[Dean Romig]

We were ALL told that lie and ammo boxes still tell that lie. All I shoot are Damascus or composite barreled Parkers. I have no reservations whatever about shooting these barrels. Just be sure they are sound and that you don't stuff the wrong ammo into them.

Barrel obstructions are almost always the reason for barrel failure of both fluid steel barrels guns as well as composite steel barreled guns.

[Brian Dudley]

I don't know about you guys, but I shoot Damascus barrels all the time.

[Mills Morrison]

I shoot Damascus and Twist barrels all the time. I use RST shells which have the same pressure as the loads for which these guns were designed.

As long as the barrels are in good condition and you use proper loads

[Jay Gardner]

Been shooting damascus barrels for 10+years. I look at them the same way as fluid steel: make sure there is enough wall thickness, no deep pits and use appropriate ammunition.

The REAL problem with damascus barrels is they make fluid steel barrels look pedestrian.

[Mark Landskov]

My W.W. Greener has 'Laminated' barrels that were NEVER final proofed (proved?) at either the Birmingham or London Proof Houses. I use RST cartridges without hesitation!

[Dean Romig]

From some things I've read and from what Brad tells me, Laminated Steel barrels are likely the strongest or at least most resilient barrels on these old Parkers.

That said, Sherman Bell conducted his "Finding Out For Myself" tests on guns that were truly in the "Clunker" category and the Damascus barrels on a 2-frame Parker went to just over 30,000 p.s.i. before they succumbed to destruction.

[Brad Bachelder]

Are you guys sure it is O.K. to shoot them things ? Go figure !

Brad

[James L. Martin]

Here's a 12ga DH Damascus with a Grouse I shot with RST paper shells

[Dave Noreen]

I grew up with a Father, Grandfather and Uncles all convinced those Damascus and Twist warnings on shell boxes were just an industry ploy to sell new guns. My Father, October 1972, on a trip where we really got into the Pheasants in Colombia County, Washington. His gun is a Damascus barrel, 1896 vintage, Remington Model 1894 AE-Grade --

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v316/Ansleyone/Hunting/RKRustyPheasantsOctober1972.jpg

My Father with a Damascus barrel KE-Grade Remington Model 1900 and my Grandfather with his heavy Twist barrel 1890-vintage Parker Bros. PH-Grade, November 1948 --

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v316/Ansleyone/Hunting/GoldenWeddingPheasants_zpse5ddea42.jpg

My Father with Grandpa's Parker, October 1932 --

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v316/Ansleyone/Parker/R_K__at_King_Lake_Minnesota.jpg

[Stephen Hodges]

Those are absolutely great pictures, thanks for sharing:) I just love the "suits and dapper hats" along with the shotguns!!!!!

[Dean Romig]

They're "dressed to kill"... pheasants!

That's a very nice piece of wood on that Parker.

[Ken Hill]

Bill H,

You may want to check out this thread http://parkerguns.org/forums/showthread.php?t=13849

Ken

[Jay Gardner]

16 ga DH (mfg 1894) shooting RST 2-1/2" 7/8-oz of #7.5 in paper hulls.
http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n308/Doublegun_2006/ParkerandGrouse.jpg (http://s115.photobucket.com/user/Doublegun_2006/media/ParkerandGrouse.jpg.html)

[Mike Franzen]

We were all raised to believe Damascus guns were not safe to shoot. We overcame our upbringing. Here's a 20 gauge I use on quail

[Harold Lee Pickens]

Gulp, you mean I've been risking life and limb shooting those old things?
Someone please come and take this dangerous GH O frame 16 off my hands before I hurt myself.

[Dean Romig]

A couple from last season with a 20 ga. DH and a 16 ga. lifter. Both great light upland guns.


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[Mills Morrison]

Gulp, you mean I've been risking life and limb shooting those old things?
Someone please come and take this dangerous GH O frame 16 off my hands before I hurt myself.

Harold, I'll pm you my address :rotf::rotf:

[Harold Lee Pickens]

Yes, and please take my Lefever G 16 also

[Matt Valinsky]

Harold, I can drive over to Wheeling in an hour and a half, it would be much easier for me to get you away from the menace of the damascus monster. What do you think?????? I can be there this afternoon!!!!!!!

[Dave Noreen]

I just love the "suits and dapper hats" along with the shotguns!!!!!

I wrote up what that was about and Dan Cote' published it in The Double Gun Journal, Volume Eleven, Issue 3, page 186.

[Harold Lee Pickens]

Matt, only if you promise to take the Ithaca Quality 3 chain damascus also.A beautiful gun and would make a great tomato stake!

[Steve Havener]

Dang you guys. Now all those fine old Parkers and Lefevers with Damascus barrels that were destined to become wall hangers at Cracker Barrel are going to start getting expensive.

[Dean Romig]

"Start" ???

[Leighton Stallones]

I shoot nearly all laminated and Dammascus as well as many friends of mine. That story was started by unknowledgeable Lawyers in the 60's. Read some of Sherman Bells articles about how it took up to 40000 psi to bust damascus junkers bbls

[Les Van Drie]

I have been known to even shoot Remington game loads through mine.

[Matt Valinsky]

Harold, I do have a patch of tomatoes. Maybe that's my poblem. perhaps I need a turnip patch. Ha.

[Pete Lester]

The hardest part of shooting nitro powder loads in a composite barreled gun is pulling the trigger for the first time. It gets a lot easier to do after that. Eventually the novelty of it will wear off and you will feel just as comfortable shooting them as any gun.

Surely a good idea to shoot low pressure light loads but that is a good idea any antique shotgun.

The only risk we might be taking is should one do something stupid or unfortunate; overcharge or barrel blockage and something happens where a person is hurt, a personal injury attorney will most likely use those age old warning to build a case for liability.

[Dean Romig]

I shoot nearly all laminated and Dammascus as well as many friends of mine. That story was started by unknowledgeable Lawyers in the 60's.



I think it started long before the 60's.... looong before.

These shell boxes are from much earlier than the sixties and I'm sure people can show even earlier boxes with the same warning.

They are all paper hulls.

"Researcher" Dave Noreen can probably tell us when that warning first appeared on various manufacturer's shell boxes.



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[wayne goerres]

Well they might be right about one thing. The rifled slugs in Damascus barrel.

[Rick Losey]

i find the warning not to use in shorter chambers just as interesting

[charlie cleveland]

i would not be afraid to shoot slugs in a damascus gun... it just that its hard on the wood sometimes..but if a fellow wouldtake the stock off and reinforce the stock with super glue fiber glass or other such glues these old stocks then can take a big load with in reason..my old stub twist 8 ga has probably had 50 rounds of 2 ounce lead round ball loads shot thru it with no harm to the barrels or the wood....charlie

[Dean Romig]

Hold on a minute Charlie... I had that 8 gauge at my house and any damage that was gonna happen to that gun has already happened....
if we're talkin about the same gun... :duck:


What I mean to say is, that gun shall forevermore be indestructible.... is that better?

[Dave Noreen]

The first time I've seen something like the Damascus and Twist warnings appear on shotgun shell boxes was the early 12-gauge 3-inch Super-X loads from about 1925 or 1926 --

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v316/Ansleyone/Western%20Cartridge%20Co/Super-X3-in12Record.jpg

No mention on this 2 9/16 inch 16-gauge Super-X box of about the same vintage --

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v316/Ansleyone/Western%20Cartridge%20Co/Secondstyle16-gaugeSuper-Xtop_zps3ac67187.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v316/Ansleyone/Western%20Cartridge%20Co/Secondstyle16-gaugeSuper-Xpictureside_zps2ca02a77.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v316/Ansleyone/Western%20Cartridge%20Co/Secondstyle16-gaugeSuper-Xloadside_zps148d5f0b.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v316/Ansleyone/Western%20Cartridge%20Co/Secondstyle16-gaugeSuper-Xbottom_zps4706df73.jpg

The one-piece shell boxes phased in in the 1933-35 time frame, and I've never seen one of those without Damascus and Twist warnings.

[Bill Anderson]

[QUOTE=Dean Romig;143589]I think it started long before the 60's.... looong before.

These shell boxes are from much earlier than the sixties and I'm sure people can show even earlier boxes with the same warning.

They are all paper hulls.

"Researcher" Dave Noreen can probably tell us when that warning first appeared on various manufacturer's shell boxes.


In our retail word, everything you see, ad or label, just about anywhere, is all about "making money" plain & simple. All the major gun manufacturers were making the transition to cheaper and faster to produce, thus more profitable steel barrels. So one of the tactics by ammo companies in collaboration with gun manufacturers was to start labeling all ammo so you would discard your Damascus guns. They wanted you to run out and buy one of the new steel barreled guns and in turn you would also buy a good supply of the new fangled ammo to go with it. . That is the single biggest reason the warnings appeared. And it worked until just a few short years ago when Sherman Bell finally did his extensive testing.

Bill

[todd allen]

How do I feel about Damascus bbls?
I think Fabbri should offer Damascus as an option on their higher grade guns.

[Bill Holcombe]

I just had to bring this one back to the top in case anyone is reading that is in a similar situation to me 2 years ago(was it only 2 years ago....). I am currently in the process of buying my 4th Damascus parker. I have come a long long way from when I first posted this question.

[Drew Hause]

Re: the shell box warning

A.P. Curtis published the second of a two part article entitled “Advantages of Short Shotgun Chambers” in the March 1938 American Rifleman (Courtesy of Larry Brown) which dates the warning.
SAAMI, assembled in serious conference on March 26, 1937, passed the following resolution: “That an appropriate warning label be placed on all boxes containing smokeless powder shells, cautioning the consumer against using them in short chambered guns and also in guns with Damascus barrels and guns not in first-class condition.”

More here
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1LFnSG34k3mBhLEjEgU267wAlIa215MNVQZhIiY62Hx4/edit

and "Damascus Mythology & Reality" in the recent Summer issue of Double Gun Journal. The Fall and Winter issues will contain a 2 part Failure Analysis and Metallurgical Study of a damascus barrel burst, which will refute pattern welded barrel...confusion.

[Dean Romig]

And the Beat Goes On.....





.

[Bill Holcombe]

I had never noticed that warning before Dean. Checked my most recent boxes and sure enough its on there...

[Dean Romig]

Its all about liability. Things would sooo much better if lawyers were never invented....

Sorry George.... :duck:




.

[John Campbell]

Explanation:
I'm sure many of you are all too familiar with these two words:

"Liability"

"Lawyer"

Please notice that I have not included the words "reality" or "truth."
Enough said?

[John Davis]

And a bleeding heart liberal is all about gun control until he needs one.

[Dean Romig]

Oops... Apologies to John too.

It it surprising how many antis own or carry a gun.





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[legh higgins]

A couple from last season with a 20 ga. DH and a 16 ga. lifter. Both great light upland guns.


.wheres Grace?


:nono:

[Jack Cronkhite]

The hardest part of shooting nitro powder loads in a composite barreled gun is pulling the trigger for the first time. It gets a lot easier to do after that. Eventually the novelty of it will wear off and you will feel just as comfortable shooting them as any gun.

How true that is. When I was a kid, we had a hammer Jannsen Sons & Co. that my dad said we must never shoot. Laminated barrels. I still have that gun (completely dismantled now) and after I get it all back together I will take it afield one day. I did get a nice damascus GHE that, after reading this forum years ago, I decided I'm going to give it a go. I was truly nervous about pulling the trigger but managed a few shots. The only fatality suffered was by a couple nice roosters. I have shot damascus now for several years, including Parkers and some English guns (oops does that make this an off-topic post?)

http://parkerguns.org/forums/picture.php?albumid=160&pictureid=1764http://parkerguns.org/forums/picture.php?albumid=160&pictureid=1765

[John Campbell]

Your post reminds me of something I've mentioned before:

My friend Kirk Merrington has a drawer in his shop with about a dozen failed shotgun barrels that he's saved from customer work. ALL of them with blown out chunks and catastrophic failures are fluid steel barrels. The composite barrels that have failed mostly bulge or split in minor ways. What's more, English proof houses have always considered "Damascus" barrels fully on par with fluid steel for proof testing.

Thus, a barrel's condition and wall thickness dictates safety. Not the material it's made from.

This may not make you feel any better, but it's the truth.

[Dean Romig]

wheres Grace?:nono:


Here's Grace.... :smiley7:

The first is from last October when she had a big part in Danny Suponski shooting his first ruffed grouse.

The other two were taken at the request of Twombly Setters (Coronation Kennels) in Vermont where I got Grace.

Recently X-ray'd - OFA hips GOOD - OFA elbows NORMAL




.

[Gerald McPherson]

Love that pup!!!!!!!!!!!

[John Allen]

The key is wall thickness.I personally have shot 11/2 oz magnums in a damascus barreled DH before with no problem.However,the average wall thickness was .045" with no pitting. Have any damascus gun checked out by a competent gunsmith.It is money well spent.

[Drew Hause]

John: I believe you mean MINIMUM wall thickness.

I favor as MWT for pattern welded barrels:
End of chamber - .105"
Forcing cone - .100"
9" from breech - .040"
9" from muzzle - .025"

Factory original 20 and 16 gauge small frame guns with Damascus barrels however may have a wall thickness of .090” at the end of the chamber, and less than .020” in the distal third of the barrel, making it critical to use loads that match the ballistics of those originally intended for use in the gun.

More information
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1ZIo0y746UsSRZIgRuuxwAbZjSBHitO_EanvwLYc-kGA/edit