Micheal McIntosh's Best Guns.

[Bill Holcombe]

Just got done reading Best Guns for the first time by Micheal McIntosh. I enjoyed it greatly as I have the 3 other books of his I have had the pleasure to read.

However, some things did surprise me a good bit from McIntosh. It is common knowledge the man loved Fox guns, for crying out loud he wrote the book on the subject. I won't contest his opinion on which is better, but I was downright befuddled by his writing on two other guns and a third that he choose not to include.

The first was the Winchester 21. I am probably speaking sacrilige here, but I have fired a couple of 21s in my short time on this planet. They handle good, and they are a pleasure to shoot, but they belonged in a book on Parkers, Foxes, Ithacas, Lafevers, and Smiths about as much as Rachel McAdams belongs in the Miss America Pageant. Don't get me wrong, she is a gorgeous woman, but that doesn't make her something she isn't. The Model 21 was made in a completely different fashion at a time when most of the other great American Doubles were going away because of production costs. While it was never a cheap gun, it was made and built entirely differently then the other guns it was compared to. I was really surprised McIntosh considered it the quintescential american double.

I was also surprised at the inclusion of the model 32 and not the Superposed. I have shot Model 32s owned by other people on several occasions, and they are fine guns, but I have always preferred the superposed, largely because I was taught skeet by a bunch of old timers who didn't think you should be allowed on a skeet range if you weren't shooting a superposed, and don't you dare be caught with one of those fancy citoris. I guess the argument could be made that you the Superposed wasn't an American Double considering it was built in Belgium, but considering it was designed by an American and sold by an American company.....

Just some things that surprised me I guess.

Anyway, great book that I would highly encourage others to read if they haven't. He has his biases, but I learned a long time ago, an Author with a biased opinion is a lot better then someone who tries to be completely unbiased.

[Bill Murphy]

This is a great subject that will be discussed at length when the administrators decide to which subforum to transfer it. Knowing that I will have some opinions, they may delete it entirely. Just joking, of course.

[Mills Morrison]

I would include the Model 21. It is not the same as Parkers and Foxes, but it was (is) the last great sxs. The Model 32 does not belong, though.

[Bill Murphy]

By the way, it is time that the credit for research on the McIntosh Fox book is given to the person or persons who conducted such research. Maybe someone will give credit to those, other than MM, who contributed to the great work.

[Dave Noreen]

The Browning Superposed was made in Belgium, and definately doesn't belong in the front half of Best Guns. The first half of Best Guns is essentially Mike's earlier book, The Best Shotguns Ever Made in America with a back half on guns from the rest of the world. The Best Shotguns Ever Made in America is a compilation of articles Mike wrote for The Missouri Conservationist from December 1977 to December 1978. So the information dates from that time frame.

In a letter I had from Mike during the years I was providing information to him for the Fox book, he stated that neither Best Guns nor The Big-Boring Rifle were labors of love, just things his publisher Countrysport Press wanted. Required work to get the Fox book published.

[Mark Ouellette]

This is a great subject that will be discussed at length when the administrators decide to which subforum to transfer it.

Bill,

Let's try this in "Other Fine Doubles".

Mark

[Bill Holcombe]

Sorry, considering it was about how these guns fit into a book on that talked about parkers I thought it fit.

I still disagree about the superposed btw. It was again designed by an american and sold by an american company. If the 32 could be in the book then the superposed which predated it would fit. Again, my superposed bias probably coming out in me.

The 21, I again consider to be in the same genre of the superposed and the 32. All three were made in a completely different time and completely different culture almost then the other guns that were mentioned.

He says in the intro that he expands on the info from the best shotguns made in america book in best guns, specifically a much larger section on Fox.

Anyway, again a great read.

[Dave Noreen]

I've always suspected there may have been some kind of gentleman's agreement between Winchester and Remington, that the boys at Ilion would build an over/under and the boys at New Haven a side-by-side. One of the C.C. Loomis' patents Remington applied to the Model 32 is clearly showing a side-by-side, and at least three of Louis Stiennon's patents assigned to Winchester were for an over/under.

I've always found it odd that Mike didn't include Baker Gun & Forging Co. in those books.

[Mills Morrison]

I have most of Michael McIntosh's books. The Fox one always seemed to be the best.

[Bill Murphy]

MM sold articles to magazines and books to publishers. He was entertaining, but not a shotgun researcher or a particularly astute student of various makers of shotguns. His written works that exceeded his level of expertise were largely the product of his co-writers. You know who they were. This thread is way above MM's pay grade. However, this subject is well worth pursuing on this site.

[Mills Morrison]

That would be Researcher and people like David Trevalion? Bill Headrick's photographs were worth the price of the books in themselves

[Mills Morrison]

Make no mistake though, he was no Corey Ford or Archibald Rutledge. Doesn't look like we'll ever see their likes again

[Linn Matthews]

Regarding the Superposed Guns, I think most individuals always speak of them as "Belgian Brownings"--hard to call that an American Gun!

[Dave Tercek]

Michael's style of writing, making boring subjects interesting , and simplifying the complex brought me, and I'm sure many others into the doublegun fold. I think we all owe him a special thanks.
Dave

[Ken Hill]

I have the 2nd edition of Best Guns and the Browning Superposed is included. The book is not restricted to "vintage" guns so I don't see why the Win 21 should not be included.

Ken

[Bill Holcombe]

I enjoy MMs writings a great deal. If the man's prose exceeded his knowledge, that is no great crime in writing. Few are the Cairos who are both great writers and researchers. I like his books, the man probably forgot more about doubles then I currently know...not saying much.


My issue with the 21 being in the book has more to do with his reference to it as the quintessential American double, when I personally have never been as enthralled with it as I have the vintage doubles.



Sorry, didn't finish the European section yet. I still don't consider
The superposed a Belgium fun. It was designed and sold by Americans.

I didn't realize that MM was held in such low regard because his strength was more his prose and he wisely used the research talents of others. I greatly prefer to read someone who writes effectively then read the findings of a researcher who writes with all the excitement of a IRS report.

[Ed Farrand]

Regarding pictures/photos, Headrick was your man if you want calendar pictures artfully
arranged with pipes, assorted shells, tobacco tins, and so on. If you wanted really accurate photos, Tom Kidd's very carefully done photos, taken outdoors with a big format
camera, were absolutely the best Fox available at the time. When the Double Gun Journal dropped Kidd for Headrick, I cancelled my subscription.

[Phillip Carr]

I had Milo take a look at my gun tonight and it is his opinion that the Model 21 meets the criteria of an all American classic SXS, but what does he know he is just a cat. LOL.
6lb. 20 gauge made in 1941. Sent back in 1946 after the war to be upgraded to grade 6 with George Ulrich doing the engraving. Not a Parker, Smith, Fox or Ithaca, but it has taken plenty of birds. Mechanically perfect, and pretty to boot. The 21 was engineered in the 20's and first produced in 1930. 84 years ago makes it a classic in my book.

http://i557.photobucket.com/albums/ss14/Philcarr/030-1.jpg (http://s557.photobucket.com/user/Philcarr/media/030-1.jpg.html)
http://i557.photobucket.com/albums/ss14/Philcarr/029-1.jpg (http://s557.photobucket.com/user/Philcarr/media/029-1.jpg.html)
http://i557.photobucket.com/albums/ss14/Philcarr/028-1.jpg (http://s557.photobucket.com/user/Philcarr/media/028-1.jpg.html)
http://i557.photobucket.com/albums/ss14/Philcarr/027-1.jpg (http://s557.photobucket.com/user/Philcarr/media/027-1.jpg.html)
http://i557.photobucket.com/albums/ss14/Philcarr/026-1.jpg (http://s557.photobucket.com/user/Philcarr/media/026-1.jpg.html)
http://i557.photobucket.com/albums/ss14/Philcarr/025-2.jpg (http://s557.photobucket.com/user/Philcarr/media/025-2.jpg.html)
http://i557.photobucket.com/albums/ss14/Philcarr/024-3.jpg (http://s557.photobucket.com/user/Philcarr/media/024-3.jpg.html)
http://i557.photobucket.com/albums/ss14/Philcarr/022-4.jpg (http://s557.photobucket.com/user/Philcarr/media/022-4.jpg.html)
http://i557.photobucket.com/albums/ss14/Philcarr/021-8.jpg (http://s557.photobucket.com/user/Philcarr/media/021-8.jpg.html)

[Dean Romig]

I like that engraving very much. Ulrich's engraving style is classic and easy to identify.

[Dave Noreen]

The Headricks, William H. and William W. were far more than just pretty pictures when it came to Ansley H. Fox shotguns. They had a deep understanding of the guns from decades of southern Illinois waterfowling, as well a benchmark collection of the very finest examples of the product. Always a learning experience whenever I stopped by Cape Girardeau, and the little house on N. Sprigg Street --

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v316/Ansleyone/A%20H%20Fox%20Gun%20Co/00001BillSrJrandL-Gradecompressed.jpg

If it wasn't for the Headricks there never would have been the Fox story told in Mike McIntosh's words.

[Mills Morrison]

Bill Headrick is my favorite gun photographer. Now that you say it, he did some good articles as well.

I need to get the second edition of Best Guns if it has the Superposed in it. We have one Superposed in our collection.

[Bill Holcombe]

It is in it under the belgium section.

[Bill Murphy]

Mills Morrison, in my opinion, you need to include the Superposed in your collecting interest, as I have. My interest is in very early guns and double trigger and double single trigger guns, which are quite interesting and scarce. I am trying to transfer my buying habits to others who may take over for me.

[Mills Morrison]

I have a Superposed, 3 barrel (20, 28 & 410) set. It is a nice gun.

[Mills Morrison]

Model 12, Ithaca 37, 870, Browning Auto 5 are all classics as well.

[todd allen]

I have hunted from Mexico, to the Artic Circle, and California to Iowa with a Model 21.
Not in the same league as a Parker, but a great gun, none the less. An analogy would be the Chevrolet Corvette, as compared to the sports cars of the world.
Not everyone's cup of tea, but just un-deniable in its own way.

[Kenny Graft]

I would include the M-21 to classic American guns for sure! They were great duck guns if you don't mind two shooter. Hi quality steel and over built, most are heavy for their gauge and tend to be clubby in the upland setting but not in the duck blind. I now mostly hunt grouse and like light guns for the most part. I own only one model 21, I searched for a long time to find it. Its a early double trigger field grade 16ga PG-SF 26" IC/M extractors at 6lbs-8oz!!! Most of the 16-s are 7 pounds plus. My 21 is not the upland gun my VH-16 that comes in at 6lbs-1oz is, but still very nice American made SXS! My model 21 will get some time in the grouse woods this fall...(-: SXS ohio

[Dean Romig]

I have hunted from Mexico, to the Artic Circle, and California to Iowa with a Model 21.
Not in the same league as a Parker, but a great gun, none the less. An analogy would be the Chevrolet Corvette, as compared to the sports cars of the world.
Not everyone's cup of tea, but just un-deniable in its own way.

That's the best analogy that could be used for the 21. Well said!