POI adjustment

[Jeff Davis]

Is it possible to change POI by changing stock dimensions? I have a LC smith that I just got back from a total restoration and patterned it. At 30 yards it is shooting high, 90 % of the pattern is above center. Even worse it is about 6" left of center. This is both barrels several patterning shots. I compare this to my 16ga parker which patterns beautifully , centered, 50/50 distribution above/ below. The guns have similar stock dimensions, though I'm not really sure how to measure cast.

I'm not sure if this could have something to do with it, but after shooting the smith I saw that it was off face. I could see daylight between the barrels and breech balls and it was very loose with side to side movement with the forearm removed. Yet it seemed like the right barrel was further away than the left, and in fact I could slip a piece of paper in there with the barrels closed where I could not do that on the left barrel. Two sheets of paper over the pin tightened things up. Both barrels seemed to be tight to the breech. No movement with the forend off.

This is going back to get rejoined, but I'm hoping I can get his gun to pattern better.

[Rick Losey]

Changing point of impact is the whole idea of proper stock fitting.

I always use the 16 yard method, George Bird Evans explained it in detail in his book The Upland Shooting Life. The method was mentioned in the current issue of Shooting Sportman

I can post the details tonight when I can get the book out

[John Campbell]

The first thing to do is to make your gun's "total restoration" truly total. With a competent re-joint. Then test the gun.

Just because a Parker shoots where you like it doesn't mean a Smith will do the same with identical stock dimensions. This is why good English guns cost more. They are tuned to the person and load. But all that is academic for now. Your gun must be made right first.

And the resto man you used might not be the one to do it...

[Jeff Davis]

Yes - its on his way back to him. Won't use any names here, I can tell you he isn't one of the gunsmiths regularly named on these forums (since this isn't a LC forum I guess that makes sense) but he is supposedly one of the best there is when it come to LC Smith's. I'm a bit perplexed that he didn't identify this issue and resolve, yet I didn't identify it as something I wanted fixed specifically when I sent the gun to him. Which is probably my fault. I will tell you he did a fine job on the metal and stock work. The gun really literally looks brand new.

A little disappointed here. I should have patterned this gun before sending it out. This was to be my upland gun this season as its is very light for a 12, (only 6# 7 oz) yet now- I may not be able to shoot it (and actually hit anything)

I've read about stockfitting and stockfitters with try guns who will give you stock dimensions- is there anyone in New England who can do it well?

[Robin Lewis]

I've read about stockfitting and stockfitters with try guns who will give you stock dimensions- is there anyone in New England who can do it well?

Give Orvis in Manchester Vermont a call and talk to them. I think they do it but I don't know their schedule or costs. I never used them but a hunting buddy did many years ago. I assume you need an appointment?

[John Campbell]

Stock fitting is one thing. Making your stock fit the needed dimensions is another. Some will want to bend yours to fit if necessary. If the bending involves more than half an inch, it's a crapshoot. If you need more radical alterations, you might need a restock. That isn't cheap.

If I were you, I'd contact Dave Trevallion, Abe Chaber or talk to Guy Bignell at G&H for a fit or alters. That is if they even want to tackle it...

[Brad Bachelder]

Jeff

If your Smith is original dimensioned, it most likely has 3-31/2 " drop at heel with zero cast. The pitch is what is affecting the elevation of your pattern. Smiths are pitched out causing you to shoot high, a simple fix. The windage issue is caused by length of pull or cast. LOP is also a quick fix. Cast off, assuming you are a right handed shooter, can be tricky with sidelocks. We bend a lot of stocks, but we stay away from most sidelocks.
The offace is a greater concern especially if the gun was Recased.

Brad

[Jeff Davis]

Yes - gun was recased, I honestly cannot tell you if this was an issue before I sent it off. But what I can tell you, is that when I got is back, I inspected it pretty closely and did not see any issues. As soon as I shot it - probably 4 times, I noticed an obvious gap between the breech and the barrel. I'm not sure I would have missed it before that.

So Brad, seems like bending is questionable, yet if I increase my LOP, in effect I move my cheek back, which will have the effect of both lowering the pattern and shifting it right because more of my cheek is above the stock?

Unfortunately the LOP is right where I need it. Longer is uncomfortable for me.

[scott kittredge]

.

if I increase my LOP, in effect I move my cheek back, which will have the effect of both lowering the pattern and shifting it right because more of my cheek is above the stock?

Unfortunately the LOP is right where I need it. Longer is uncomfortable for me.[/QUOTE]

I always thought a long than needed LOP would make you shoot higher?? :corn: I know I shoot a lot better with a little shorter LOP than a longer one. I found this out when I had Ed M. CHE with a LOP at 13 5/8ths inches. I shot this gun the best and from than on I look for 13 5/8ths in my duck guns to 13 7/8th LOP in my clays guns , scott

[Virginia Hessler]

JSD
You say you probably wouldn't have missed it I'm thinking your probably right it's hard to miss a loose off face gun.
Just a thought, I'll bet someone at sometime fixed that gun slipshod like gluing a shim in place or maybe even soft solder. I'm thinking whatever process the restorer used melted out that fix or evaporated it, and he probably never knew it was there.
Just a though it could explain how it ended this way.
One way or another I would fix that before I worried about where it shoots.
Tom

[Jeff Davis]

JSD
You say you probably wouldn't have missed it I'm thinking your probably right it's hard to miss a loose off face gun.
Just a thought, I'll bet someone at sometime fixed that gun slipshod like gluing a shim in place or maybe even soft solder. I'm thinking whatever process the restorer used melted out that fix or evaporated it, and he probably never knew it was there.
Just a though it could explain how it ended this way.
One way or another I would fix that before I worried about where it shoots.
Tom

Yep probably right. I'm sure it will come back fine. When I talked to the smith after a few questions about what I was seeing he basically said send send it right back and I'll fix it. No issues. Whether it not I can shoot it I'll figure out later.

[Dean Romig]

Ask him how he plans to fix it..... the right way, or the 'band-aid' way?

[Jeff Davis]

Welding the hook on the barrel.
Which I believe is the right way.

[Dean Romig]

Yes, welding it up and machining it to 'fit'. But there are other considerations in putting a gun back on face as well.

[John Liles]

It sounds to me that it may be a problem with the top lever spring. If the spring were shot, but not completely broken, that could cause the off face symptoms you describe. The rotary bolt locking mechanism that Smiths rely on for "never shooting loose" (prepared for incoming flames!) is dependent upon a fully functioning top lever v-spring. I've replaced several intact, but weak, top lever springs with new stiffer springs that totally eliminated the problem you describe. I'd definitely get this issue resolved before addressing your POI issue.
Food for thought and good luck!
John

[Brad Bachelder]

If lock up is the problem, the spring can cause looseness at lock up. Also from the Recase the lever or the bolt could be binding as Those parts often require minor fitting on reassembly after Case. The type of gap that was stated, makes me think that the hook is the issue. Generally Recasing will tighten the barrel/receiver fit by about .003. It is hard to speculate without seeing it.

Brad

[Jeff Davis]

If lock up is the problem, the spring can cause looseness at lock up. Also from the Recase the lever or the bolt could be binding as Those parts often require minor fitting on reassembly after Case. The type of gap that was stated, makes me think that the hook is the issue. Generally Recasing will tighten the barrel/receiver fit by about .003. It is hard to speculate without seeing it.

Brad

Well, if it comes back with issues still Brad you'll see it. Again- nothing leads me to believe this fellow is not extremely competent given the feedback I've gotten from LC smith folks so I am assuming all will be resolved. Yet, I am not going to continue sending it back and forth.

[Jeff Davis]

Gun is back and nicely done. He did weld the hook. No hint of looseness any more. Will get out and pattern it again this weekend and see if anything has changed.

[Bob Hardison]

Jeff: That is some fine turnaround time from your smith. Bob

[Jeff Davis]

yes- Though he has a very full schedule, took 8 months to get it back initially, and that was actually an expedited timeframe because I wanted this gun back in time for Grouse season, he started work on it the day it arrived. I continue to be happy with his work.

[Jeff Davis]

Finally patterned the gun today- did the 16yd method described earlier. Just mounted and shot as if shooting at a bird. Did the same thing at 20 yds and 30yds. Gun seems to pattern fine now- maybe a 60/40 split high-low and centered. Both barrels are shooting to the same POI. So not sure what the problem was- I only shot it a few times the first time before I saw it was loose, but next I need to get out and shoot some clays with it.