The Myth is strong

[Brad Bachelder]

The other day I had to drive to the southern part of the state on a family matter. About an hour out of town I passed an old gun shop that I have not
been in for years. On my return trip I stopped at the shop.
The shop has been long known for a large gun inventory. I went straight to the Gun counter and asked if they had any Vintage Doubles ? No answer. I rephrased the question, any old Double Barrels ? The older clerk lead me to a single rack in the back of the shop. There sat about a dozen crusty old Doubles.Two Remington hammer guns caught my attention. Average condition, one parts gun and a shooter with 32 " twist Barrels. I did a close inspection of the bores. The clerk said, "you know those are not safe to shoot". I asked why ?
"because those are Damascus Barrels, you can't shoot them". I did not respond.The pair was priced right but the tags had written in bold Red letters "unsafe to fire". I decided to take the pair. The clerk informed me that I would have to sign the release form. The form was a standard liability release stating that I agreed that these guns were unsafe to fire. I told the clerk I could not sign the forms.
The clerk proceeded to give me his well practiced dicertation about "blowed up" Damascus and twist Barrels. He then asked me why I would not sign? I said that it was not true. He laughed at me. I did not reveal my identity, I simply stated that my shop, has inspected, repaired, restored, and tested with Nitro Ammo, 100's and 100's Of sets of Composite Barrels, without a single failure. The clerk was speechless. I thanked him for his time and left.

Brad

[Jay Gardner]

Nice to know that there are still a few uninformed dinosaurs out there who's ignorance can be taken advantage of.

[Rick Losey]

"never give a sucker an even break or smarten up a chump"

W C Fields

not my way in most of life - but in these cases it fits

[edgarspencer]

Having a pulse was all that was required for Cabe11as to hire someone when they first came to CT. The guy in the gun library told me the difference between a 1911 and a 1911A1 was that the 1911 was only intended to shoot black powder, and the slide could blow off the frame and go through my face if I fired a modern .45ACP in one. I bought the gun, but I still can't find any BP ammo for it.

[Bruce Day]

Always surprising since if they at least did a cursory read of the background of the gun they would find that most were made after nitro powder became popular, proofed with nitro and likely have never shot black powder throughout their existence.

[Mills Morrison]

I keep saying the next time I get that lecture, I am just going to tell the person I like living dangerously.

[Brian Dudley]

At the last local gun show that I exhibited at, I had my CH upgrade on display as a work in progress and I heard one guy say to who ever he was with "Why put all that work into a gun and not be able to shoot it because of the Damascus barrels?". Clueless.

[Pete Lester]

.......and the prices on composite barrel doubles were just increased at yet another gun shop :)

[John Campbell]

.......and the prices on composite barrel doubles were just increased at yet another gun shop :)

There is good and bad in all perceptions. About 20 years ago, the Damascus fear allowed me to buy some very fine guns at great prices. Now, most cognoscente have awakened to the truth. That's where the bad comes in. As Pete has nicely phrased above.

Bachelder: You'll get your due for tipping off that clerk some day! (LOL)

[greg conomos]

Well....the way I see it you came out on the short end of the stick. You let your need to make a point get in the way of your buying a couple guns. I would have signed a paper that stated Martha Washington played forward for the Knicks if that's what they felt the needed.

[Brad Bachelder]

I did not miss the Guns, my road guy will pick them up. To me it is worth the finders fee to not sign the forms. As for educating the clerk, Iam sure that he is still clueless, just a little more confused. Most of the gun shops in our neck of the woods refer Double customers to us.

Brad

[Eric Eis]

I want to know why I can't find gunshops like that, clueless, I love it and hope they stay that way.... Then maybe I can find some cheap guns.....:shock: Please do not educate these people......:rotf:

[Phil Yearout]

I was in a well-known gun shop a while back looking at a Parker Bros. gun. The clerk asked if he could help me and I mentioned that the barrels on the gun appeared to have been cut. He said, "Well, you know, those Parkers are made in England, and they use centimeters there instead of inches, so it's hard to tell if they've been cut." I have to admit I had no come back.

[Robin Lewis]

I was in a well-known gun shop a while back looking at a Parker Bros. gun. The clerk asked if he could help me and I mentioned that the barrels on the gun appeared to have been cut. He said, "Well, you know, those Parkers are made in England, and they use centimeters there instead of inches, so it's hard to tell if they've been cut." I have to admit I had no come back.

:rotf::rotf::rotf::rotf::crying:

[Grantham Forester]

Well....the way I see it you came out on the short end of the stick. You let your need to make a point get in the way of your buying a couple guns. I would have signed a paper that stated Martha Washington played forward for the Knicks if that's what they felt the needed. Gee guys, I thought it was Martha Stewart that played forward for the Knicks, right after she got out of the pen for "insider trading"?

Heard they had a really great floating wooden court in her "Country Club Prison" too- Oh wait, maybe she played point guard for the Celtics, my bad.

I bought the 12 gauge Dumoulin Y Fils ( and sons, for those here who might not parlez Francois) hammer Damascus gun from a gentleman who asked me if I knew about only using Black Powder shells in it. I replied: "Yes, I do, and I have plenty on hand", cased the gun and walked out with it and a signed receipt. Done deal!!!

[John Campbell]

Upon a bit of reflection, I can rationalize Brad Bachelder's reticence to sign a document absolving responsibility for the "danger" in Damascus barrels. He is a FFL licensed professional who deals in many of these guns. If he signs a document that recognizes their inherent "danger," then that document can be used against his shop in a potential legal action. Whether it involves the specific guns in question or not.

All it takes is some litigious idiot to put a 3-inch steel duck load in the wrong gun.

Of course, it's all based on a gigantic piece of marketing bullpucky, invented to promote the sale of cheap fluid steel gun barrels...

[Brian Dudley]

I knew a guy that told me of someone that thought their Lefever was chambered for 3" shells because it was called a "Nitro Special".

[Destry L. Hoffard]

Guys how is this really surprising? It's only been 10 years or so that this information has been fairly widespread in the US. When every box of shells made in the USA have had the words "do not use in guns having twist or damascus barrels" for pushing 100 years it's going to be hard to dispel the myth.

Just taking a wild guess, I'd say most of the guys commenting on this thread thought it was true themselves until not too long ago........


Destry

[Bill Holcombe]

So here then is the real question for you gents. If every box of shotgun ammo for most if not all of our lives says not to use in Damascus barrels and even the fine book:" Parker: America's Finest Shotgun", states it emphatically several times(ok, I know it has been shown to not be accurate on everything it claims, but it is still a good read) why the sudden change, and why would John Q Public suddenly depart from what he has been told was fact his entire life? Just pointing out that your average gun owner doesn't educate and read up on guns like most on here. Heck, your average gun owner wouldn't buy a gun with wood on it anyway unless it was painted black and had a rail mounted on it.

[Destry L. Hoffard]

For the most part, in the US, it all came about with the beginning of Sherman Bell's series of articles called "Finding Out For Myself". What about 99.9% of the folks here in this country never figured out was that we were the only country in the world where the old damascus or twist guns were ever feared. Try telling the "blowing up" story to somebody from Europe or England that's interested in vintage doubles. They'll look at you like you're nuts.


DLH

[Harryreed]

Destry,
Your comment is correct. To my benefit, about 30 years ago, one of my favorite dealers had a beautiful double on his rack. I spotted it right away and admired the deep relief engraving, fine checkering, smoothness of the action and the handsome barrels. It also was very light. As I inspected the double the shop owner stated "your a good customer of mine and I want you to understand you must not fire this shotgun because of the laminate barrels. If you want to buy it I will let you have it for $300." It was so well made I had to take it home with me. I new nothing about old doubles at the time. The double is a Francotte. It does have wear on checkering, 20% colors, but overall it is in nice shape for its age. It also created my interest in Parkers and others. My father told me when I was young to stay away from damascas barrels.

[Mike Franzen]

I remember being at a gun show about 20 years and seeing a whole rack of high grade damascus guns. There were a couple Parkers probable C grades. We all admired them as beautiful wall hangers but couldn't justify the $200 - $300 price tags for something that could never be shot. :crying:

[chris dawe]

I have a similar story...twenty odd years ago ,my brother wanted a 10 gauge hammer gun for geese,saltwater birds etc I searched high and low to find one for him as a surprise gift....going through a local newspaper add one morning lo and behold was a 10 gauge hammer gun,I called the guy who was apparently the local gunsmith in the town he lived ....I drove the two hours to see the gun ,it looked great to me at the time ,he had painted the metal with some sort of proprietary finish (see bbq paint ) and he told me he had opened the chokes to shoot steel ammo,just as he had done with his Fathers gun which was the same model ...the gun was good and tight great bores ,good wood so to my uneducated eye perfect for the intended purpose ,I bought it and made my Brother very happy.

We shot lots of birds with that old gun ,Federal and Winchester steel BB ,3 1/2 inch shells, but man it kicked ,being a light weight ten gauge it would stumble you if your footing wasn't sure.

When the Canadian registry came into effect ,the gun had to be verified in order to be registered ,and as there were no makers name it was done by proof marks ...you can imagine our astonishment when the gun had only Belgian black powder proofs ,and as we later discovered Laminated steel barrels under the paint ,this started my quest for info on the old doubles and had me ultimately end up here and on other similar minded forums.

So do I have a fear of composite barreled guns?...not really .

But in saying that ,about a year before it was bought I lived in Calgary Alberta ,during one of my regular killing time visits to the local big box hunting store I noticed a rack of about 15-20 old doubles in the corner,some were absolutely beautiful .there 16.12 and 10 gauge guns there were a bunch of English doubles in the mix as well, one was a crystal indicator Scott as I recall...I went back week after week and looked them over ,and listened to the clerks warning of wall hanger and black powder only ,you can't shoot them etc ...but I couldn't take my eyes off them ...how many times did I stroll in with the intention of buying the whole lot but just didn't,because I was scrimping and saving for the house I would build back home in Newfoundland ,that was my mission .

When I did leave Calgary it was a quick decision ,basically I woke up one morning packed my bags and went ...But the $50-$100.00 price tags on those guns has literally haunted me to this day :eek:

[Destry L. Hoffard]

Chris I'm going to have to come up there one of these days for a saltwater bird shoot. I've read about it and it sounds like tons of fun.

DLH

[Bill Holcombe]

I am not aware of the price of doubles going up, but I do regret not buying a K98 or 2 or a colt python a decade ago....

[Dean Romig]

Actually, Sherman Bell was inspired to perform his destructive experiments and subsequently write his "Finding Out" articles by the ongoing feuding between the two polarized camps of the pro and con folks regarding the safety or lack thereof in shooting composite barreled guns with nitro powders. At the time of Bell's first article there were a great many shooters who wouldn't give a second thought to shooting a composite barreled gun with nitro powders as long as the pressures were moderate but there were times more shooters who were absolutely horrified at the thought. The ratio of believers vs non-believers has changed as a result of Sherman's articles but not by much I suspect.
Long before Bell conducted his experiments I was advised by Dr. Oscar Gaddy that shooting my 16 0-frame sixteen with .064" wall thickness at the front of the chambers would be fine with loads under 7,500 psi. Even before that I was shooting My Damascus 12 gay with 'off the shelf' ammo, and I know a lot of others who were as well. But we do owe a lot of thanks to Sherman Bell for popularizing the shooting of our composite barreled guns and for helping to elevate the value of these guns.

[chris dawe]

Chris I'm going to have to come up there one of these days for a saltwater bird shoot. I've read about it and it sounds like tons of fun.

DLH

With the inshore fishery closed for years now its hard to find a good man with a boat to take us out ,and believe me November in the North Atlantic you need someone who knows their business ...I have an uncle, a retired fisherman in his seventies now who would likely be game for a day or two ,and a couple buddies who may be able to help ...but the times they sure are a changing unfortunately

You can get them from the beach during foul weather ,but at it's best its a jump shooting proposition in a 18-20 foot open boat...up here we have our good guns for in the country and guns for on the water ie single shot 12 gauge , or rickety old beater

[edgarspencer]

Armbrust and Bell are the guys who dispelled the myth, in my eyes, but I was loading very light smokeless 16 ga. ammo many years before they did there tests.
What I feel was most significant in their testing was not so much the closeness of the pressures, at failure, of steel vs. composite, but that the pressures were nearly double any ammo you can get off the shelf.

[John Campbell]

Over a century before Sherman Bell and Armbrust performed their tests, the Birmingham Proof House had proven the issue. In 1891, they tested a host of Damascus, twist and fluid steel barrels to the point of failure with nitro loads. The barrels that stood the highest pressures? English Damascus came in Nos. 1, 2 & 3. Siemens-Martin fluid steel came in at No. 4. This is partially why composite barrels are NOT an issue in the UK as long as they pass proof.
But Bell and Armbrust put the proof infront of American shooters. My hat's off to them.

[Mills Morrison]

Often the less there is to justify a traditional custom the harder it is to get rid it.
-- Mark Twain

Talk to any Damascus hold out and you will see what he meant.

[Ken Hill]

Thanks for this interesting thread. I think most of you agree RST provides shells to support low pressure and low recoil loads for vintage guns. Have any of you looked at the warning on the inside box flap? "...use only in modern shotguns (not Damacus twist barrels, etc.)..."

The guys at RST are great to deal with, but for some reason they include the warning.

Ken

[charlie cleveland]

its because of legal issues again is the reason the warning is on the box..charlie

[Bruce Day]

A V with Vulcan barrels isn't a modern shotgun either.

[Harryreed]

The myth does still exist. The knowledgeble classic gun trade knows better, but the "folks" don't. If I showed up a a turkey shoot here in N. GA with my Parker or Ithaca damacus barreled shotgun, there would be folks there to tell me I should not shoot it. Before I knew the facts I passed up so many opportunities. Know I can only think.....:banghead::banghead::banghead:

[Joe Dreisch]

30 years ago, Captain Earl Ashenfelder (of Susquehanna River fame) was selling a few of his guns and asked us to stop by. One of his guns for sale was a Baker Batavia Leader 12 ga. Damascus. I took a pass because of the barrels but Earl said," Skipper, I guarantee, that gun has fired at least 10,000 rounds of Super X shells at ducks on the flats"! I kick myself. Mostly because Earl has passed now and it would have made a wonderful momento....

[Mike Franzen]

I remember reading those Bell articles. The thing that stood out to me was in order to cause a failure he had to lodge a 20 gauge shell in a 12 gauge barrel and then fire the gun causing it to blow. When I got my first damsacus gun I still held my breath and said a prayer before I pulled the trigger.

[Brad Bachelder]

The terms Damascus, Twist, Laminated Steel are simply names for different types of composite Barrels. No one can make a definitive statement as to the shootablilty of composites. The key to shootability is the quality of manufacture and materials used.
During the hardware store gun era, a large number of Doubles were imported with very poor quality Twist, Laminated and Faux pattern Barrels. These guns were cheap and did not hold up to much use. I suspect that these poor quality composite Barrels were prone to failure and may have greatly contributed to the universal condemnation of Damascus.
The composite Barrels used by the major manufacturers were the highest quality available and very costly.
Every set needs to be inspected prior to use, however great confidence can be taken in unmolested "High Quality" composite barrels.

Brad

[David Noble]

Barrel thickness and condition being equal, are the Parker Twist, Plain Twist, Stub Twist and Laminated barrels "generally" as strong as the Damascus barrels or should greater care be used in selecting pressure and velocity for those, ?

[Brad Bachelder]

David

We have not performed destructive testing to chart specific hardness or steel composition. The gauges that we use are machinability, dent raising, striking, polishing, and contrast at initial etching. Higher grade steel is more difficult to machine and shows less contrast at etch. Softer steel is easily machined and shows bold contrast at etch.
Based on these observations I would rate in descending order: Laminated, Damascus, stub twist, plain twist, Parker twist.

Brad

[Mills Morrison]

This is a very interesting thread.

[John Mazza]

Regarding KDGJ's comment:

It does seem odd for RST to lay out a disclaimer that, per this thread, has no sccientific merit. ...and Bruce makes a good point. What IS a modern shotgun ? There is no "date" or design, or specific barrel alloy defining that term, so wouldn't it be legally useless ?

But then again, we need coffe cups with warnings that read "Contents are hot!"

[Mills Morrison]

I don't speak for RST but I have an idea it has something to do with their insurer.

[John Mazza]

I know, and you are 100 % correct.

It just bothers me that we need to waste SO MUST TIME playing "Cover Your *ss" in this country...

[Bruce Day]

What is a modern shotgun. I learned at the last NRA show from Remington that a modern shotgun has a black plastic stock and
matt finished metal. It may be semi auto or pump but holds at least five shots. The forend should have a pistol grip extending downwardly.

Similarly a modern hunting rifle is an AR or AK clone with at least a 15 round magazine.

Everything else is your grandfathers gun.

[John Mazza]

I guess I don't have any modern guns then...

Not a problem at all.

[Bruce Day]

Similarly a hunter must wear camo in the upland game fields and apply face paint so the game will not see him. And your pick up truck flashlight and knife must also be camo. Anything less and you are not a real hunter.

You must also think Ted Nugent is a great musician and a spokesman for all sportsmen

[Craig Larter]

Sherman Bell's articles Finding Out for Myself and The Forgotten 10's were some the best articles ever published in the DGJ in my opinion. They sure cost me some money chasing Damascus Parkers and 10 bore Elsies. Small gun auctions around my neck of the woods still hammer down dangerous Damascus guns for a song.

[Mills Morrison]

I wish they would make a book out of those articles. That was before I was a regular subscriber, but I have a few of the issues.

[greg conomos]

I'd be willing to bet this BB has more than one lawyer on it....and if we are going to lament the fallout of product liability claims then we have to include the lawyers in that mix.

As for Ted Nugent.....well, he's a bit much for my taste but I give him credit for standing apart from the usual views of his trade. Your average musician would never touch a gun or hunt anything - and would be glad if you never did either. Moreover, Ted also stayed away from drugs and alcohol his entire career....so Miles Davis he might not be but then that's not all bad.

[Bob Brown]

Like Brad B. said the poor quality of some low grade European doubles led to many failures, but shooters that were used to stuffing as much black powder as would fit into their shotgun hulls probably caused quite a few as well. I wonder how well "drams equivalent" was understood in the early years.

[Pete Lester]

I have to believe the era when both bulk and dense nitro powders were available led to some barrel blowups when a bulk powder dipper was used with a dense nitro powder. The two kinds of powder were available at the same time and in an era of less efficient communication and higher illiteracy.

[Mark Ouellette]

I have to believe the era when both bulk and dense nitro powders were available led to some barrel blowups when a bulk powder dipper was used with a dense nitro powder. The two kinds of powder were available at the same time and in an era of less efficient communication and higher illiteracy.

What Pete stated and that at the time of the early "dense" or second generation smokeless powders a simple powder scale was very expensive and not easily available to the common shooter/reloader.

[Bill Zachow]

Mike, I think you should go back and re-read Mr. Bell's articles on blowing up the damascus And steel Parkers. No placing a 20 gauge shell in a 12 gauge chamber was used or done. It was only continuously higher pressures from specially loaded ballistic lab shells. Both damascus and steel barrels finally blew at pressures in excess of 30,000psi, with no barrel obstructions needed.

[greg conomos]

Sherman Bell's tests were interesting, and informative, but as science goes they represent far too small of a sample group to be of real substance.

[John Campbell]

As far as a scientifically valid sample goes, you are correct. As far as empirical evidence goes, not so much. Bell and Armbrust tested a small range of guns/barrels they had on hand. Their results fairly well validated those of the Birmingham Proof House. The results also underwrite practical evidence in the real world. A famous British barrelmaker I know has a drawer full of ruined Damascus, Twist and fluid steel barrels. All of the composite barrels failed via bulges and minor splits. The fluid steel barrels simply blew open violently.

Is this scientific proof of anything? Certainly not. But for my part, I'd rather be behind a composite barrel when it fails rather than a fluid steel one... slip-and-fall lawyers aside that is.

[charlie cleveland]

hows this for science..there are a few thousand of us parker owners and we as in most of us guys shoot our damascus guns reguraly with no problems..my self i shoot a lot of damascus and differant types of composite steel like stub twist-plain steel-laminated steel -wire twist- and the list goes on..some of these old barrels are pitted and i have shot some heavy loads thru them in smokeless powder with 3 oz of shot..so i say mr bell and mr arbrust and all of us shooters of all these old guns have proven a scientic fact that these old barrels still shoot ok.. charlie

[Mills Morrison]

Right Charlie

[Mike Franzen]

Mike, I think you should go back and re-read Mr. Bell's articles on blowing up the damascus And steel Parkers. No placing a 20 gauge shell in a 12 gauge chamber was used or done. It was only continuously higher pressures from specially loaded ballistic lab shells. Both damascus and steel barrels finally blew at pressures in excess of 30,000psi, with no barrel obstructions needed.

Bill I think you should read page 26 of Vol 18, Issue 1. Here's a pic of that page so you get the gist of it :whistle:

[Bill Zachow]

Mike, I stand corrected on the use of the 20 gauge shell but that was not the point of Bell's testing, I am not sure why he bothered. That particular test was not required. Anyone who has been around guns and fired them knows what will happen when you plug a bore and fire off a charge. Without going back to check my back issues, did't the 20 gauge shell thing happen after he "prooved" the Parker steel and damascus barrels and went on in a later article to test a bunch of "wall hanger" Smiths, Remingtons, etc to show that they all easily handled blue pill proof loads?

[Pete Lester]

Anyone who has been around guns and fired them knows what will happen when you plug a bore and fire off a charge.

Sometimes what doesn't happen is surprising.

laX3H08TuMk

EWl1Mu1tywM

but then again when it does happen, disaster.

zGH1BPEIP4c

[Mark Ouellette]

Thanks Pete!

I knew I had seen those videos. Of course I am not going to try that with a prized Parker.

I believe that most barrel blow ups were either caused by an obstruction such as mud, or a spider nest (from leaving that ol' gun in the corner of the barn just in case...). Barrel failures from obstructions usually occur down the barrel where the obstruction is or more correctly "was".

Chamber failures at or just past the chamber were most likely caused by those long ago without proper scales of knowledge of the differences, using the same volume of second generation smokeless powder as one would have previously done with black powder or first generation smokeless "wood" powder.

Thanks again Pete!
Mark

[greg conomos]

hows this for science..there are a few thousand of us parker owners and we as in most of us guys shoot our damascus guns reguraly with no problems..my self i shoot a lot of damascus and differant types of composite steel like stub twist-plain steel-laminated steel -wire twist- and the list goes on..some of these old barrels are pitted and i have shot some heavy loads thru them in smokeless powder with 3 oz of shot..so i say mr bell and mr arbrust and all of us shooters of all these old guns have proven a scientic fact that these old barrels still shoot ok.. charlie

How is it for science? Well, it is not science at all. It is anecdotal evidence. There's no scientific proof of anything therein, other than perhaps that on those days with those guns with those loads in those weather conditions with those shooters nothing bad happened.

During the Viet Nam War, thousands of GI's had unprotected sex with thousands of Vietnamese women, and thousands of GI's never caught any disease. Is that scientific fact that you can't catch a disease from having unprotected sex?

Bell's tests are evidence, for sure, but not proof.

[Mike Franzen]

Bill I think the point Bell was making was even after proof loads, stuffing wads, dirt and rags down the barrel, the only way he could get a burst like that was to lodge the 20 ga shell down bore. I think that was the point of his testing. This test was done at the end of his series "Finding Out For Myself"