SBT questions; help!

[Phil Yearout]

I'm looking at this one; serial #212959. I only have a couple of bad photos at this point. Thing is, the barrel measures 27-1/4". I would say for sure it's been cut except that it still has a lot of choke. Any chance the barrel length is original? The stock has the typical problems: ugly pad, plexiglas spacer, etc. Overall condition is very nice, lock up is tight, etc. Any ideas on a fair price, or is this simply one to walk away from?

Or should I just buy the Miroku Browning with 34" barrels for less money :)

http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w109/prairieschooner/Temps/a1e83482-e54a-4568-8796-1a7303f8a3a5_zps90cd74f3.jpg

http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w109/prairieschooner/Temps/003_zps26a2ca59.jpg

[scott kittredge]

book said 34 inch barrel

[Bill Murphy]

What is the exact bore diameter and what is the exact choke length and constriction? Can you also give us a closeup of the last rib stantion. I assume this is Michael Murphy's gun that he has been so evasive about. Maybe now we'll figure it out.

[Phil Yearout]

I don't have access to those dimensions nor any way to measure them; I just know my drop in gauge stopped half way between full and modified. Has anyone asked the seller for them? I do have some more shots; I'll see if they're of any help when I get home tonight.

Later: I asked for the bore diameter, choke length and constriction; he says the choke is .034; didn't supply anything else.

book said 34 inch barrel

Are you referring to the Parker Story? If so, where is that information located? I took a quick look at my copy earlier today but didn't know where to find it.

[Brian Dudley]

At that odd length, it is cut. And the record book info about 34" supports that too. They did offer 28" length in the SBT guns, but they would have been very rare and they would have been exactly 28".
Most of the trap guns did have a lot of choke constriction. But I would find it hard to believe is went much farther back than 4-5" from the muzzle. But it could.

I have an SC with 32" barrels and .050" of choke.

With modern shot cups in shells, that choke and barrel length would likely still work well for you in trap. But unless the price of the gun reflects a cut barrel, I would pass on it.

[Steve Cambria]

Fin,

No doubt, the esteemed Mr. Bishop will probably share with us that several SC's were ordered with 27 1/4" barrels....all for the Czar of Luxembourg!!

I think the real question is, would you be happy shooting even recreational trap with a 27" gun? I would strongly advise that you beg, borrow or steal a comrades 32" gun and give it a test drive. My guess is that you would find that length far more comfortable/ enjoyable to shoot and I believe your scores would improve slightly as a result. I own and shoot several vintage SBT's and honestly, when I drop down to a 30" gun, I become one of the true leaders in clay conservation! :banghead:

[Phil Yearout]

http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w109/prairieschooner/Temps/004_zps5d205a30.jpg

http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w109/prairieschooner/Temps/005_zps52fdd5f9.jpg

Sorry folks; this is the best I can do.

And TM, thanks for your very sound advice. I knew it once I actually looked at the gun and realized what I saw, even if I didn't want it to be true! What a shame; such a lovely gun!

But here's the thing: I'm not a real trap shooter, what little I do shoot is to improve the chances that I might actually hit a bird or two come fall. Still, I've always loved those SBT's, and the romance of the image of me pulling up at the club in necktie and fedora, opening up my leg o' mutton case, setting up my single barrel, and blasting a few clays into oblivion. And with that in mind, I tried to convince myself that, at the right price, maybe I could live with the short barrel. Sigh.

[Bill Murphy]

Sorry, I must repeat that a bore diameter and choke diameter and length will tell the tale. If a guy who has sold $100,000 guns in his career doesn't own or admit to owning a choke micrometer, he is trying to cheat you. He knows the bore diameter and isn't telling you what it is.

[Phil Yearout]

With modern shot cups in shells, that choke and barrel length would likely still work well for you in trap. But unless the price of the gun reflects a cut barrel, I would pass on it.

Would you be willing to give a novice like myself an idea of what, in your opinion, such a price might be?

[Brian Dudley]

This is what the end of an SBT barrel should look like.
And as with most other Parker barrels, the rib matting should terminate before the end.

33895

You can see the filler piece that was put in on that shortened one you are looking at.

[Phil Yearout]

Sorry, I must repeat that a bore diameter and choke diameter and length will tell the tale. If a guy who has sold $100,000 guns in his career doesn't own or admit to owning a choke micrometer, he is trying to cheat you. He knows the bore diameter and isn't telling you what it is.

He didn't say he couldn't measure it, he just didn't completely answer the question. I think we've alreday established that it's been cut. He knows it and we know it, so it's moot I guess. And for the record it's not Mike I'm talking to.

[Dave Suponski]

Phil, Parker Bros. advertised 30" barrels as the shortest available. I have never heard of a 28" SBT gun but that is not to say they didn't make one. This gun has clearly been cut. If it were me I would just keep looking for a nice original gun. There are several out there most of the time. The chokes in a Parker SBT are simply amazing.

[Bill Murphy]

I wonder how he got .037 of choke back into the barrel? I have discussed this gun with him over the last couple of years, but he never quite explained it to me. What is the bore diameter? Simple question, simple answer.

[Brian Dudley]

I agree. A barrel that has had nearly 5" taken off of it should not have that much choke left in it.

Unless he is just measuring the muzzle diameter and assuming a .729" bore. the bore could be tighter than that from the factory.

[Steve Cambria]

Phil,

BTW, did you know you can now watch re-runs of this one on Me-TV? Perhaps a bit of food for thought? :nono:



http://i1073.photobucket.com/albums/w400/cambo1021/DANGERWillRobinson.jpg (http://s1073.photobucket.com/user/cambo1021/media/DANGERWillRobinson.jpg.html)

[Phil Yearout]

OK guys, you win :knowbetter: I give!

[Phil Yearout]

I agree. A barrel that has had nearly 5" taken off of it should not have that much choke left in it.

Unless he is just measuring the muzzle diameter and assuming a .729" bore. the bore could be tighter than that from the factory.

I copied this from a fellow's post on the SBT forum here; maybe this explains it?

"My SC trap, however, has a long, slow choke that begins about six inches from the muzzle, starts to get warm with about 2.5 inches to go, and finishes with a half inch of parallel.

[William Davis]

It's hard to say what the price for that gun would be.

Give you some opinion based on SBT guns I am looking at. Ithca Knick restored finish not cut, LC Smith SBT not cut or cleaned , either gun would make a good shooter, sellers are asking about 1000. Friend of mine has had a Parker SBT untouched except pad added for sale few years now. I used it for a while works fine. You may find pictures on this forum using search. We are still apart on the price, starting at 3200. I think the Parker SBT is worth twice the Ithca or Smith. He thinks more. My opinion pad alteration makes a big difference, others don't discount it as much as I do.

Cut Barrel Trap gun even a Parker would not be worth anything to me.

Bill

[Dave Suponski]

Bill, SBT trap guns came equipped with a pad from the factory. Most had Hawkins but the Brothers P would install whatever the customer wanted.

[Phil Yearout]

Thanks again for all the help and opinions, Rationality won out, I'm movin' on. That $1000 range sounds good Bill; I doubt I'll ever pop for what it would take to get a Parker. Perhaps I'll come across an Ithaca or maybe a Baker that's in my price range. There are some Ithacas for sale here locally - a buggered restocked one at Cabela's which I've already dismissed and a couple of way overpriced ones at a dealer.

[Bill Murphy]

I'm kind of fond of my SC Parker with about 6 or 7 inches of Cutts Compensator on the end.

[William Davis]

Dave

Understand Parker did furnish pads as ordered but this one has been cut down with a modern pad added. Might not make a difference to many people but my eye cut and altered stocks are not desirable. If somebody wanted a Trap Gun to shoot Stock alterations would likely be overlooked, hard to find unaltered Trap guns.

No more than I shoot trap My 30 inch VH or GH do just fine. If the SBT belonging to my buddy was just right would not quibble over the price, it's just not.

Bill

[Dave Noreen]

This 1939 ad shows the single with a Jostam Hy-Gun pad, but I'm sure whatever the customer ordered would be provided.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v316/Ansleyone/Parker/ParkerTrapGuns1939.jpg

[Bill Murphy]

Seems like the double trap in the ad has a NoShoc or Silvers style pad. My SB came with a scarce and unusual pad, the name of which I can't recall, but it was an offering in the catalogs. My 1917 SC had a very depleted original Silver. The problem with the 27" gun being discussed is that Mr. Murphy has not given us a length of pull measurement, even though the gun has been on the internet auction site for years.

[Brian Dudley]

Phil, Parker Bros. advertised 30" barrels as the shortest available. I have never heard of a 28" SBT gun but that is not to say they didn't make one. This gun has clearly been cut. If it were me I would just keep looking for a nice original gun. There are several out there most of the time. The chokes in a Parker SBT are simply amazing.

The Parker Story states that 20 Single Barrel traps were made in 28" Length and 2 in 26" length. Only 5 guns were ordered in 20g. So, of the 22 guns made in lengths less than 30", that means that 17 of them were 12g.

[Phil Yearout]

LOP measured 14". As pictured, the gun has a recoil pad and a 1/4" plexiglass spacer. Mr. Murphy, you certainly seem to have a burr under your saddle over this particular gun and/or dealer :)!

[Dave Suponski]

Brian, Thank you but I know what is stated in the Parker Story. I was referring to Parker Bros. advertising specifically the 1937 catalog.

[bill grill]

Can't say that I've ever seen a Ithaca, L.C. Smith, Parker, Or Fox sbt for sale for a $1000. in the last 10 years. At least one that was worth buying. Did buy a Lefever for less than half that though. Bill

[Bill Murphy]

Mr. Yearout, reread all of my posts about this gun and tell me where you have gained the right to accuse me of having a "burr under my saddle" concerning Mr. Murphy. I have told you everything about this gun that I know and I have told you about the questions I have asked about this gun and not received answers. Every comment I have made has been in the interest of helping you to make an intellegent decision about buying or not buying this gun. I wish you would reconsider your absolutely uncalledfor comment. I have known Mr. Murphy for years and respect him as a dealer in fine double guns. I have no such thing as a "burr in my saddle" concerning him or his reputation. I merely commented about my contact with him on this particular gun. It seems that you have received the same lack of information as I have. Please tell me where I have made a comment that would not help you to make a bad decision.

[Phil Yearout]

Mr. Murphy, I absolutely apologize; I did not intend to offend. The little smiley face following my comment was my attempt to show I was in humerous agreement with you; obviously I failed. The reason for my comment was that I sensed your frustration in getting answers to your questions. Mike Murphy's place is less than 15 minutes from my front door so it's easy for me to see any of his offerings face to face; therefore simple things like LOP, etc, are easy for me to find out for myself. I do not have the knowledge nor the experience that many here have, certainly including yourself. You posed a solution to determining the amount of choke which is beyond my capabilities; if I had the tools and the knowledge to supply those measurements to you I would do so, and gladly.

I did not talk to Mike personally about the gun, and it seemed that the man I did talk with was as puzzled as I about the fact that the barrels seemed cut, and yet there is, in their opinion at least, more choke than one would think possible if they had been.

I appreciate all the input I received, including yours. If you still feel that my comment is inappropriate here I will be happy to edit it out or take down my posts; I meant no harm. Please let me know; thank you.

[Alfred Greeson]

Just an old member who just rejoined the association and reading about this SBT makes me proud to have done so. Brian has been a great resource for me already and I have sought the advise from other members through the years. The amount of $ they have saved me from not making bad buying decisions is enough to own one or two good Parkers. Parker fever is a serious illness and if members will continue to speak up and hold others accountable, it will save the rest of us a lot pain and suffering. Thank you, Al G.

[charlie cleveland]

let me wecome you back to this fine organization..charlie

[Alfred Greeson]

Thank you Charlie, good to be back. Not being able to see the pictures of that C grade from the chicken coup pushed me over the edge. What a find. I met some of you guys at the Dulles Expo shows while I was on active duty over the last few years. I'm now retired from the Army and am enjoying playing with Parkers and seeing the Smoky Mountains on a daily basis and selling real estate to support my gun habit and get ready to help my gran daughers get through college. I look forward to learning from you guys and seeing all the neat guns you find. Al.