Ammo question

[Virginia Hessler]

Hi
I just picked up an under lifter and want to shoot it.
It is 12 guage with poor bores, not disgusting but not pretty either. Barrels are Damascus and minimum wall thickness is right around .050 . A friend gave me a box of RST 2 1/2 shells they say --lite 2 3/4, load 1oz, shot 8.
According to RST web site these would have a 1175 fps velocity.

Can this load be shot through these barrels with a degree of safety ?

I am new to hammer guns and although I have read as much as I can find on them I have no practical experience with them.

Thank you for any advise, Tom

[Robin Lewis]

It is 12 guage with poor bores, not disgusting but not pretty either.

Good question! Given your description, I would have them inspected by a good barrel man. Measuring the min wall thickness isn't enough, the thickness at the pits in the barrels is important and a "normal" test of running the barrels up & down a gauge probably isn't going to tell that. Any sign that there may be rust under the ribs which could be a problem?

To many issues to say you can shoot them simply by asking here. If they were in great shape we could advise you that we shoot them with RST and you may be able to do the same. But, poor bores........ I think they should be given a close inspection by a knowledgeable gun smith that knows damascus barrels.

[Rick Losey]

minimum wall thickness would be in one of the pits

so how bad are they? not pretty as in middle of the day not pretty or closing time :rotf:

if you are not able to accurately evaluate the barrels - my advise is to take them to someone who can- to really give you an answer would require having the barrels in hand.

[Virginia Hessler]

I understand what your saying about the pits, I really doubt anyone can measure the bottom of a pit and I am not convinced we need that kind of accuracy.

I shoot a VH regularly with 1 1/8 loads and the bores look about the same as the Damascus . The rib area shows no rust and they ring nice.
I wouldn't ask anyone to evaluate my barrels over the internet, but what I am asking is if I felt the barrels were in reasonably good shape is this the type and load size shell that I would shoot in it?
Maybe this load would blow apart a brand new set of Damascus barrels ? I don't know and this is the info I seek.
Thanks for the replys, Tom

[Bruce Day]

Tom, the Parker standard 12 ga load for testing patterns was 1 1/8 oz at 3 drams, equivalent to about 1200fps. It didn't matter if it was fluid steel or Damascus, Parker treated them the same,.

TPS contains service and proof load pressures for Parkers, which were the SAAMI loads of the time.

Parkers were made to shoot stout loads. Shooting light chamber pressure or light recoil loads is a choice, not a necessity.

[Pete Lester]

Many people shoot pitted guns without functional issues. They are, harder to clean, not pretty to look at and their value is diminished. Not all guns are pitted from corrosive primers, black powder and lack of care, some left the factory with deep and extensive pitting in the area of the breech where pressures are the highest. Look at all the stress risers on this Fox. Stress risers on the outside weaken a barrel much more than stress risers on the inside, think about the strength of an arch in bridge construction. I think about everyone here would shoot the Fox gun below and not one individual would be concerned about the pits. Then again sometimes pitting is so severe you see right through the barrel, depending on where that happens people still shoot them. Not much pressure as you get towards the muzzle. Your gun is most likely fine to shoot if the barrel walls are sufficiently thick enough.

[Virginia Hessler]

Thanks guys
If it was proofed at 1 1/8 I feel very comfortable shooting the 1 oz. like was mentioned these barrels are pretty stout.

Thanks, Tom

[Bruce Day]

No Tom, it was not proofed with an 1 1/8 load. The standard service load, not proof, was 1 1/8 oz 3 dre, and the proof load was about 13,000 psi in that era, or another 4,000 to 5,000 psi greater. Service loads in any gun are generally calculated to be one third less than proof loads. The few rupture tests that have been done show these heavy Damascus barrels withstanding well over 20,000 psi.

The 1 1/8 oz 3 dre load was the standard Parker 12ga service load for almost all 12's, except very early guns. Following is the Parker load table for your gun as made, and as you can see, it is an even heavier load, up to 4 drams. I would not find that a comfortable load to shoot.

That was as designed and made. Some guns today have thin barrels or loose on face and need to shoot reduced loads. Some of these old guns have had a lifetime of heavy loads from people seeing how much they can blast out the end of the barrels. For target shooting today, light loads are more economical and easier on your shoulder.

[Virginia Hessler]

Thanks Bruce
Now I understand. And feel even better about it. I am always appreciative of the info so willingly shared by the experienced .

Tom

[Dean Romig]

We must also recognize that, over time and with the stresses put on these old barrels of a hundred or more years of shooting, the steel, be it Damascus, Twist, or fluid pressed, will suffer some degree of fatigue.

[Bruce Day]

I invite you to join the PGCA.

[Bruce Day]

We must also recognize that, over time and with the stresses put on these old barrels of a hundred or more years of shooting, the steel, be it Damascus, Twist, or fluid pressed, will suffer some degree of fatigue.

Some do , some don't. I ordered a new Parker hammer gun some years back , sent in the order form, and lately received word that the gun is about complete and will ship soon. So I have essentially a new hammer gun coming.

You see some of these guns and they have been rode pretty hard. Others , even well over 100 years old, are scarcely used. They are not correctly lumped all together. Even some that look worn are mostly carry wear with not all that many rounds through the barrels.

[Virginia Hessler]

Yes now is a good time to join.

As far as use mine would be in the well used category, when I got it the action was pretty loose and well off face. I spent the weekend re welding the hook and dressing it down to a pretty much perfect fit, also smoked the barrels and now it feels like a new action.

I just never shot one of these and wasn't sure what load to start with.
I'm pretty excited going to shoot it this afternoon .

Thanks, Tom

[Leighton Stallones]

Just shoot it ! All of these questions will never be answered

[Virginia Hessler]

Last question
I didn't shoot it today because I'm thinking this gun was made in the black powder days and maybe that is what you guys are referring to.
My intention is to shoot modern smokeless powder in it.
Are we on the same page with this ?? Just making sure.

Thanks, Tom

[Chuck Bishop]

Tom, your thinking too much:banghead:

Just shoot it with light modern shells!

[Bruce Day]

Yes yes yes. DRE means drams equivalent to black powder. You can use RST shells or just go to the hardware store and buy Winchester AA 1 oz 2 3/4 dre loads for easy shooting besides the AAs are about 2 1/2 inch shells By 1893 parker had changed over to smokeless powder. Black powder era guns are often thicker walled thAn smokeless powder guns because of the sharper pressure curve of black powder. That's why smokeless was often called progressive burning.