20 gauge CHE found in a garden shed

[Brian Hornacek]

This poor old girl spent a few years in a garden shed,. It has 30" barrels, an "O" frame and no safety from the factory. Butt stock is an absolute mess, . Any ideas on what to do with it? The top rib can be saved. I have all the internals.

[todd allen]

Would make a worthy restoration project.

[David Noble]

I agree, it would definitely be worth restoring. Titanic steel, that's interesting. I don't see a circle T on the barrel flats though.

[Fred Verry]

A 30" CHE 20 gauge straight stock gun would be a very desirable configuration when restored.

[Richard Flanders]

Gawd, who would do that to such a gun???????:crying:

[Brian Hornacek]

I agree with all of you but I don't think these barrels can be saved, the bores are clean and bright with exception of the last 1" of choke. The exterior of these are ROUGH with some pretty deep pits.

[George Lander]

[B][I]Brian: You need a REAL gunsmith / restoration expert for that job. My pick would be Jim Kelly of The Darlington Gun Works, Darlington, South Carolina. I'm sure that there are others equally qualified. That's a restoration project that's worth doing, IMHO.

Best of luck with it, George

[Patrick Butler]

We should all be so lucky to have garden sheds like that.

To my novice eye, 5-6K would be well spent on this project.

[Bruce Day]

Exterior pits can be filled and filed by a micro welding technique, the same way molds are repaired. Here is a B which had one of the bolsters badly corroded and which was weld filled , filed and re-engraved so that the repair is imperceptible.

Exterior pits in barrels , fluid or Damascus are easy in comparison and regularly corrected.

Reconstruction of this gun will be a costly and lengthy process requiring the owner's patience and pocketbook and a master gunsmith's expertise. There are also several stockmakers that could do the project. A nice stick of thinshell walnut will run $1000 to maybe $1500 that is appropriate for the grade then maybe a year or two for the woodwork.

Mr. Butler's estimate may be close on the low side. Done right, the finished gun should be worth in excess of $15,000. Done wrong, its a do over.

[Rich Anderson]

If it were mine I would have the work done. it's costly but the cost is going to be spread out over a year probably two maybe even a little longer.

I would send your pictures to Jim Kelley, Brad Batchelder, Brian Dudley and Doug Turnbull for an estimate on the cost and a time frame.

[John Campbell]

In my opinion, Brad Bachelder is the only choice for this one. No slight to the others.

[Bruce Day]

Brad is a master stock maker?

[Brian Hornacek]

The stock is not my concern. The forearm can be saved and I would assume the butt can be straightened around for about $2,500 give or take, The butt can be duplicated although it is not usable.. The receiver I know it can be saved at a cost.....welding and engraving. What I have no understanding of is the barrel restoration and the barrel welding you describe. Any thoughts of the value in its present condition??? This may be something I pass on to someone with more patience than me.

[Brian Dudley]

The wood is no issue with this gun. And the frame is a secondary concern as well. I agree with you that the barrels are your major concern on this gun. They should be deemed as safely restorable first. The bores being good are a big plus. You will have to check out wall thickness of the barrels first and have the barrels examined in person by who will be room the work to see how deep the exterior pitting is and how it can or cannot be fixed. Being an 0 frame, the barrels are light. But at least it is not a 16g. The 20g will give you some more wall thickness to work with.

This is quite the gun and should be properly restored if you have the time and resources.

Why don't I find guns like this? Is it because I don't have a garden shed?

[John Campbell]

The issue with this gun is not cost effectiveness. It is already beyond that. The key here is passion for a high grade Parker's survival and an honouring if its past. Pride of ownership will repay part of that.

Value as a distressed CH? What someone is willing to pay for the honour of putting it back right... and not fretting the cost. Perhaps $1000 to the right person?

And yes. Bachelder or his outworkers do very fine stock work!

[Bill Murphy]

The first thing I would do would be to order a PGCA letter and see who ordered such a gun with such rare features.

[Rich Anderson]

Bill am I missing something here? What rare features do you refer to, the straight grip and 30 inch bbls?

If the gun is to be redone I wouldn't try to save the butt stock if it's going to cost in excess of $2000, a new stock can be made for that not including the cost of wood.

Bruce who did the work on Charlies Chicken coop 20ga hammer gun?

[Brian Dudley]

By "saving the stock" I think he meant being able to use it as a good duplication pattern.

I would call a straight grip 20g with 30" barrels and no safety somewhat rare on a whole. But not super rare. Those would be relatively common features on a target gun. Which is likely what this gun was originally used for.

Yes, a research letter would be the very first place to start. I do not think that the butt treatment was mentioned on the stock. But I would suspect a factory ordered pad might be the likely.

[Rich Anderson]

The pictures show a skeleton butt. I missed the part of no safety. A worthy project none the less.

[Brian Dudley]

And I missed the SSBP.

[John Campbell]

Since all we have regarding the buttstock is "absolute mess" I don't see how anyone can say what might be done with it. I've seen some absolute messes come out quite nicely.

[Brian Hornacek]

When I get home tonight I will post stock pics and the rest of the parts. I will post pics of the barrels in better light........they are pretty rough

Thanks all that have responded

[Bill Murphy]

I'm sticking with my "rare features" comment. Even the "check writers" in our organization would have a hard time coming up with a CHE 30" 20 gauge with no safety and a letter indicating original ownership.

[Craig Larter]

To far gone to consider a restoration in my opinion, it would be a huge money pit. Sad to see such a rare example end up like that. Yuck!

[David Noble]

Brianedward, I'm just curious, was this a yard sale find?

[Bill Murphy]

When I move, I'm going to leave a Parker in the garden shed, stacked up with the snow shovels and see how long it takes to get mentioned on this forum.

[Dave Noreen]

The first D.M. Lefever I ever saw in person was covered in red rust as a regular fixture in the hen house at a college friend's Grandmother's place near Fischers Mill, Oregon. Could still be there for all I know. Seemed beyond hope then, 1968, froze solid, couldn't move the safety roller or the top-lever.

[Bill Murphy]

Kevin McCormack will remember the AHE 12 gauge bird gun that a local person of our long time acquaintance had in his possession. I had seen the gun in fully rusted shut, long left outdoors condition some years earlier, before our friend ended up with it. Believe me, if that AHE could be brought back, this 20 gauge can be restored.

[Dean Romig]

In my opinion the restoration of this once wonderful Parker is definitely a worthwhile project. If it were mine, I would certainly have it restored.

[Rich Anderson]

I wonder what some of our gunsmith compadres would venture to guess what a full restoration assuming the worst would cost. I have an idea but will hold that thought for now. Brian, Brad what do you guys think?

[Dean Romig]

Those are interesting barrels... Titanic Steel is stamped on the rib but where the steel type is generally stamped on the right barrel flat there is a K. I have never seen this stamp before and am curious as to its significance... any thoughts?

[Brian Hornacek]

Thank you for all the interest in this gun. I sent away for a letter today to see what that brings up. I have had 11 offers to purchase the gun and a few other folks give me some sound advice on proceeding. At this point I am not a seller to those that have offered, although it would be more helpful if you have interest to give an assessment of value as a few were willing to do. I am on the fence to proceed with any work myself although the $$ investment over the 2-3 years it will take is not that significant in my opinion. $7K-10K is not a bad way to get an amazing gun.....like 3 years same as cash on that new convertible! I will tell you this gun was not given to me, or found at a yard sale. I paid what I considered a value worth it to me in its current state and it was in excess of the $1k a few of you offered to me......but not too much more. Where are you going to find a 20 ga. CHE ejector gun? Barrels or not its like owning a LS6 454 with everything rusted out but the cowl and the ID tag attached to it....................you can build another car around that!

More of the important stuff such as gun info:
The butt stock was given to me in a box with the rest of the gun, it does not appear to be from this gun after close inspection, although it is a skeleton butt stock (SSPB) with a straight grip that could be modified as a pattern for duplication.
It is missing a few parts such as the trip, spring and pin.
Funny to see case color under the locking lever!
I have to believe the barrels can not be saved, but you never know....I used a green scotch bright on them after these pics and they actually look quite a bit better. The choke cleaned up very nice with now only about 1/4" inside the muzzle with rust the rest of the interior is clean and bright. I see 3-4 areas that appear to be a bit deep but small in size.
Besides the exterior rust, all the internals operate freely at they should.

Thanks again to all with constructive helpful comments.

[Dean Romig]

The barrel appear to be deeply pitted but can be saved by the right guy. Do NOT dismiss those barrels.

[greg conomos]

.....I think it's a great find, though sad.

That said............I don't see this gun after being fixed being worth nearly what people think (and shame on those who would offer $1K for it).

If I were buying a CHE 20 that had been heavily reworked, I would not go wild with the money. Let's assume an original CHE that had never seen that sort of misery were to bring $20K (and I am not sure it would). That means I'd be all done at $15K for this gun, and that's assuming the work had been done very well.

Like it or not, this gun will always be a 'George Washington's Axe' gun.

[tom tutwiler]

I believe the restock to include blank will run about 4K. Recutting the engraving another 4K. Can everything else be done for additional 3K? Course that assumes the barrels can be salvaged/sleeved. Is it worth 11K to put it back to where it was? Don't have the answer but I think 11K might be in the ballpark to get everything done correctly. Sure hope someone does it as I'd love to see the "after" because we've all seen the "before".

[George Lander]

I am of the humble opinion that NO gun is "too far gone" as not to be resurected by the right hand and I don't believe that it would cost anywhere near $10,000 to save this one.

Best Regards and Good Luck, George

[Greg Phillips]

In the right hands this gun should more than likely become a nice gun. If your desire is to keep and enjoy the gun, I say forge ahead with patience and investment.
Restoration for re sale will most likely be a marginal idea. Best wishes with your choice.

PS- Whoever left that gun in a garden shed should have been taken to the wood shed!

[tom tutwiler]

I am of the humble opinion that NO gun is "too far gone" as not to be resurected by the right hand and I don't believe that it would cost anywhere near $10,000 to save this one.

Best Regards and Good Luck, George

George I need to shop where you shop.

Agree if the barrels are salvageable you can do it for less then 11K. However Gournet (or someone of that ilk) is going to charge a good bit to rengrave and restocking with high grade Turkish will certainly cost 4K because the blank is going to cost probably a grand. Now if someone is capable of doing a lot of the work himself then that changes the dollar investment considerably. If one sent it to Turnbull I don't think my 11K figure is far off.

[Rich Anderson]

You asked for an assessment of it's value in it's current state and some here have offered a thousand dollars, that's the assessed value to them. you obviously thought it was worth slightly more because that's what you paid for it. In it's present state it's worth whatever it will bring.

I think full restoration is going to run close to $10K and if the barrels are to far gone then you can add another couple of thousand for a replacement set of barrels. At the end of the project you will have between $11-15K in it. Is it worth it? Only you can answer that. I would spend the money and have it done if it were mine.

An original CHE 20 can easily bring $20K in good condition.

[David Dwyer]

I have to agree with Greg. This would not be a financial rewarding project.
I had an initial interest in doing it, but believe I could purchase a nice all original
CHE 20ga 30" at pretty close to what this would cost to have a Bachelder or Turnbill restoration. In my experience a restored C grade Parker sells at a significant discount to a decent original. I have seen projects like this take 3-5 years. I did not make an offer for the parts , am no longer interested, but $1,000-$1,200 would not be a steal.JMHO
David

[Gary Carmichael Sr]

I will chime in here, I think all Parkers are candidates for restoration, but several things come into play, rarity, desire to keep the gun and shoot it, and if you are like me I do not like to see fairly high grade Parkers left in this condition, This gun is not rare only rarity here is its condition, I would restore the gun" and it can be done" Just look at Charlies "Chicken Coop Gun", a fine example whats possible when it comes to restoration. If you can afford to restore it do it! If not my suggestion would be sell it to someone and feel good in the fact that the old girl will be resurrected! Gary

[Gary Carmichael Sr]

Just have to say something else, I am presently working on a gun that most would have parted out, This will be ongoing for a while, I wish I would have taken photos of this gun, It is just an 0 grade lifter, but is consecutively numbered to another 0 grade I have so I am doing a restoration on it, I will show photos of the pair when this old girl is finished, they have a home a two gun oak and leather case I bought at a sale in London! Gary

[Rich Anderson]

With out a doubt to take on a project such as this one is a commitment to the preservation of this individual firearm. There is no real financial gain to be realized but the satisfaction of taking this out to the clays course or into the field is IMHO priceless. A great satisfaction in the preservation and the passing of the torch so to speak to future Parker enthusiasts isn't to be discounted either.

[Gerald McPherson]

I have always enjoyed a gun that needed 'cleaning up' more than one that needed nothing.

[Craig Larter]

As I stated I would not consider restoring such a gun but I have to tip my hat to all you dedicated Parker guys who would jump at the chance to save such a gun. WOW I am impressed.

[Dean Romig]

Craig, would you bring back a high grade Fox in this condition?

[Craig Larter]

Dean: No way would I consider restoring a high grade Fox in that condition but that is just me, and I have had the opportunity many times. I am just surprised how many Parker collectors said they would restore such a rough gun without hesitation-----I am very impressed.

[Chris Travinski]

Doug Turnbull had a O frame 16 ga. CHE with 30" tubes and safety delete that he had completely refinished. He had it on his site for $30k if I remember correctly, a while later I saw it on GI advertised for much less. Anyone know what it finally sold for, that would be a good indicator of this guns value.

[Mills Morrison]

First order of business now is to get some oil and fine steel wool and try to get some of the rust off the barrels or at least slow it.

[Rich Anderson]

I wouldn't hesitate for a second to have that gun restored. Craig I have a Fox project I'm bringing to Hausmans.

I have a GH 20 w/30 inch Damascus barrels that Turnbull completely redid. I have no idea what it looked like before the work was done but It's a very nice gun now.

[wayne goerres]

When you stop and consider the price of some of the newer high end shotguns it makes the cost of restoring a Parker look like a bargain.

[George Lander]

George I need to shop where you shop.

Agree if the barrels are salvageable you can do it for less then 11K. However Gournet (or someone of that ilk) is going to charge a good bit to rengrave and restocking with high grade Turkish will certainly cost 4K because the blank is going to cost probably a grand. Now if someone is capable of doing a lot of the work himself then that changes the dollar investment considerably. If one sent it to Turnbull I don't think my 11K figure is far off.

Tom: It's not a close comparison but the last restoration that I had Jim Kelly do for me was on a 4 bore E.M. Reilly doublegun that had rested in an attic with a leaking roof for quite a long time. The stock & action were "as new" but the barrels and forearm were rusted on both ends inside & out. Jim restored this gun for, I believe, @ $2,500 including honeing the bores, recutting the engraving and rebrowning the barrels.

Best Regards, George

[charlie cleveland]

i too think this lovely old 20 ga should be restored..if i had found the gun i would not have the money to start a full fledged restoration on this but you can have the gun fixed or worked on as money be comes available...i do not look at most guns as investments but this gun done right sure would make you more money than putting it in a bank..also you could think of selling the gun to someone on this a a fair price who has the money and passion to fix this little 20 parker..i think this 20 ga will bring more than a 1000 in its present state.. charlie

[George Lander]

George I need to shop where you shop.

Agree if the barrels are salvageable you can do it for less then 11K. However Gournet (or someone of that ilk) is going to charge a good bit to rengrave and restocking with high grade Turkish will certainly cost 4K because the blank is going to cost probably a grand. Now if someone is capable of doing a lot of the work himself then that changes the dollar investment considerably. If one sent it to Turnbull I don't think my 11K figure is far off.

For those familiar with the A.H. FOX Legend, Jim Kelly restored BO-WHOOP! 'nuf said?

Best Regards, George

[Mills Morrison]

Jim Kelly restored another CHE 20 gauge that has been on one of the gun websites for a few years, if you want to see what this one could look like. He did a great job on that one.

[Frank Srebro]

I've had laser welding done by a friend with a business in the aerospace industry. This laser work was on small, specific areas of steel barrels, pits were ground out with some kind of micro technique right down to bare metal, and the steel filler was ~ matched with the barrel steel so they didn't have different or mottled colors after rust bluing. I once sent pics of a barrel similar to this CHE to that friend - and then to one of his welding techs - just to get an opinion. Actually its rusting was somewhat less extensive. They both said my barrel could be done and finish up to look OK cosmetically - but because of the very large total surface area to be overwelded, pressure integrity would be an issue for them and thus they wouldn't consider doing mine. Period. I know this input is kind of apples and oranges, but I'm posting it here as food for thought.

PS When posting here about laser welding I usually get PM's from gents asking for my source. Sorry, friend does this work for me as a favor, he is not in the gunsmithing business, and is not soliciting similar laser weld work from anyone else.

[Bill Murphy]

My "Gold Hearts Parker" was a rusty mess when it came home to my house. The restoration was limited to the two sets of barrels and the skeleton buttplate. The receiver was cleaned with oil and fine steel wool and the wood was left in its original finish. You would be surprised how good a gun can look without trying to make the receiver look brand new, just addressing the worst of the other parts. Attempts to recolor and reengrave a high grade receiver sometimes results in a horrible looking final result. Some of the guns from the late Jim Parker's collection are good examples of guns that should have been left alone rather than fully restored.

[Mark Conrad]

IMO, the barrels are everything. If they can be saved with over .020 minimum barrel wall thickness the restoration is in order. If the barrels need to be sleeved or lined the value of the gun will probably never catch up to the restoration costs. Personally, I would send the barrels to Kirk Merrington for his opinion.

I have measured numerous small bores that were made in this time period and the barrels tend to be thiner than the barrels made in the 20's and 30's. The thin spot is right in front of the choke.

BTW, a CHE with 30 inch barrels is very rare. There was a gun at the Southern in the same configuration except for a ball grip that sold in the mid thirties. It was not perfect but very nice original condition.

[Bruce Day]

Echoing Mark's comments, TPS lists the C grade guns on p. 298.

The above 30" 20ga with Titanic barrels is the only one made. There were 21 made with 30" Acme barrels.

The barrels of the poster's C are in poor shape, maybe they can be saved, maybe not, and its not possible to tell with the photos provided. Some barrels with rust pits have been saved in the past. The chicken coop 20ga D hammer was covered with a fine bloom of orange rust which was quickly removed. The only part with deep corrosion was the skeleton butt plate, which had to be ground to be fairly thin, then re-engraved. The B hammer had the sculpting on one bolster deeply corroded, which had weld material added. That area was not subject to stress.

[Brian Hornacek]

Thanks again everyone who has offered advice and direction on this. I am inclined to head down the road of restoration if the barrel can be saved. I took some measurements of the barrels now that finally had some free time.
Chambers 2 15/16"
Left and right bore 0.620
Left and right choke 0.030 down to 0.590
Left and right OD from mid way to about 2" from muzzle 0.694 and the end .695.
Simple math wall thickness is ~0.375.

As stated the barrels are Titanic steel and the bores themselves are super clean. What would be a minimum wall thickness the barrels could be taken to?

[tom tutwiler]

Much smarter people then me will chime in here. That said the phrase "it depends" kicks in. If minimum barrel thickness of say .022 is located about 6-8" from the ends of the barrels that wouldn't both me much because the pressures have dropped way down by then anyway, and I'm assuming you would want to handload or shoot something like RST Lite loads where pressures are kept way down. That same .022 sure wouldn't work for me say 8" from the breech. I think halfway down the barrels you'd like to shoot for minimum of .032. Some factory small gauge Parkers were struck quite thin towards the ends of the barrel before the chokes started to kick in. PS. I had Fox early Pin Gun I purchased with some pretty significant outside pitting on the barrels. Had Dan Rossiter strike the barrels to remove the pitting and he had to take them down to .025 about 6" from the barrel ends before the rust blue. He recommended I only shoot RST ammo out of it but thought the barrels would be fine. When they get real thin they can be prone to dents from hitting just about anything (car doors, trees, etc. Ask me how I know :( )

[Mark Conrad]

It looks like this gun may have been ordered with 2 7/8 inch chambers. There were a few 20's made on the 0 frame with the long chambers. The ones I have seen went to the west coast. The barrel weigh is also on the heavy side. While your measurement of the OD diameter less the inside diameter is a good sign, the barrels still need to be measured with a barrel wall thickness gauge. IMO, the ribs need to be removed for this restoration to be done correctly. I would say the odds of saving these barrels has gone up.

[Brian Dudley]

Minimum wall thickness up in the front is one thing. And your pitting towards the front of the barrels looks workable. And if you are really running high 30s for thickness up there then that should not be a problem in having material to work with there. The more important thing is how much material there is back by the breech. And that is where the pitting looks worse. I like to measure thickness at the forend loop and also in front of the chambers. I like to see thickness of .050 plus at the loop and usually wall thickness will be .090" to .100" at the chamber front on most barrels.

At this point it is all speculation since only a hands on analysis of the thickness in the pitted areas as well as depth of pitting will need to be done on your barrels to know for sure.
By the looks of it, they likely can be saved. But it will be a lot of careful draw filing.

[Rich Anderson]

I would not try to turn down the outside of the barrels in an effort to reduce the pitting and rough spots. I would have the pits filled in by micro welding. Consult some of the craftsmen on this forum such as Brian Dudley, Brad Batchelder etc.

[John Campbell]

The verdict on these barrels cannot be rendered on this site. Although they seem savable, only a professional double gun barrel man can make that determination.

In my view, there are two good choices in that regard: Kirk Merrington or Brad Bachelder.

Since these tubes are fluid steel, some pits might be weldable. File work should be kept to an absolute minimum in any case.

Rather than elicit more speculation, I suggest you send the gun to a pro. Then heed his advice.

[Frank Cronin]

Not a Parker but this is my early LC Smith Syracuse extra heavy Quality 3 10 gauge with 32" barrels that had heavy pitting near the breach. The work was performed by Brad Balchelder who used laser to weld under magnification. Call him and I'm sure he will explain how he did it since I am not sure exactly how he did it. In any case, to do this on Damascus barrels is amazing. I'm sure he can help you with fluid steel barrels too.

http://i1210.photobucket.com/albums/cc420/StubTwist/LC%20Smith%20Syracuse%20Quality%203/20110804_11.jpg (http://s1210.photobucket.com/user/StubTwist/media/LC%20Smith%20Syracuse%20Quality%203/20110804_11.jpg.html)

http://i1210.photobucket.com/albums/cc420/StubTwist/LC%20Smith%20Syracuse%20Quality%203/20130119_71_zpsfa3b9ecf.jpg (http://s1210.photobucket.com/user/StubTwist/media/LC%20Smith%20Syracuse%20Quality%203/20130119_71_zpsfa3b9ecf.jpg.html)

http://i1210.photobucket.com/albums/cc420/StubTwist/LC%20Smith%20Syracuse%20Quality%203/20130119_44_zps7e7db17b.jpg (http://s1210.photobucket.com/user/StubTwist/media/LC%20Smith%20Syracuse%20Quality%203/20130119_44_zps7e7db17b.jpg.html)

[Bruce Day]

Yes, Brad does this work on Damascus guns, as does Dale Edmonds ( through another gunsmith). I have previously posted pictures of welded splits in Damascus and twist barrels and filled pits. Some of the welded seams were quite old, indicating this repair technique has been going on for a long time. and holding since then.

Some people believe that only fluid steel barrels can be repaired by welding pits and implying that if Damascus the pits or even splits could not be welded. That is not the case from what I have seen.

[John Campbell]

BD:
Mia culpa. Being a ferrous metal composite, of course Damascus can be welded. But with varying aesthetic success by amateurs. Bachelder does well. As do a few other specialists. And... if you were to read my previous post carefully, you will find that I did not say anything about Damascus barrels, nor the potential for their welding.

[Larry Huff]

Brian,
You could always just stabilize/remove the rust, get a stock on it that fits you, and have it cleaned/checked out for safety by one of the good Parker smiths here , and have the coolest shooter grade gun in the woods . It would always have the story to tell and be preserved for a full correct restoration in the future if you wanted to .
Awesome gun and horrible it ended up this way .
Great find !