20 ga

[scott kittredge]

Ok, who won the 32 in VH 20 ga. on the "parker lettered" 2 frame on gunbroker last night?? :corn:

[Brian Dudley]

Tell me about it! What a rare one! I was out of it once it went over $3k.

I was surprised at the ending price.

It would have been great if the gun still had the 16g. barrels and forend too.

What gets me about the letter is that the order book state to "make as light as can" but they used a 2 frame for a 20/16g. set. I would figure they would use a 1 frame for light weight. Must have been a balance thing with the 32" barrels.

[Jay Gardner]

How much did it sell for?

[Bill Murphy]

Brian, in reading the PGCA letter, I take the comment about "light as can" to refer to the 16 gauge bird barrels. The unstruck weight of the barrels is 4-15. A swamped set of 28" 16 gauge barrels could be made well over a pound lighter than the 20 gauge barrels, making a seven pound or less gun. Jay, the gun sold for $4725 plus shipping.

[Bill Murphy]

I am surprised that no chamber length was requested. My old (long gone) #2 frame 32" 20, #153,333, also ordered in April 1910 by Orren R. Dickey, was ordered with 2 7/8" chambers for 3" shells. Another big 20 was ordered about the same time by Iver Johnson in the identical configuration, also with long chambers. Does anyone know where my old gun, #2 frame 20, 32" barrels, ball grip, original dogs head butt, #153,333, is? I would make a generous offer to get it back.

[tom tutwiler]

Was a fun auction to watch. Was watching it and the early C grade Fox at the same time. Some interesting guns are showing up on GB now.

[Chris Travinski]

Does anyone still have the link to the auction, I'd like to see it.

[Bill Murphy]

GB 414416371

[Brian Dudley]

I was speaking with someone this morning that said they saw the 16g barrels sell on auction about 8 months ago. So they are out there. Maybe the buyer of the gun also has the barrels. What luck if so.

[Chris Travinski]

Thanks Bill. There are a lot of long barreled guns in/around that group of serial numbers. Many 32-34" 12 ga. several of them are "pigeon guns".

[tom tutwiler]

Another easier way:

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=414416371

[Jay Gardner]

Wow those are some seriously thick breach walls. Makes my 20/32 look rather slender.

[Eldon Goddard]

I thought about bidding on this one, but I have a lot to learn about parker prices. I thought that being a heavy 20 it would go for less. Great gun.

[Jay Gardner]

I thought about bidding on this one, but I have a lot to learn about parker prices. I thought that being a heavy 20 it would go for less. Great gun.

Keep in mind Parker made only 221 20-ga V-grades with 32" barrels. That gun may be one of only a couple made in that specific configuration (#2 frame and a set of 16 ga barrels).

[Bill Zachow]

Even though it may be a rare configuration, is not the price excessive for a gun with little condition and a probably non original butt treatment?

[edgarspencer]

Ordering a 16/20 gun on a #2 frame, and then asking for it to be as light as possible makes me wonder why it wasn't ordered on a 1 or even 0 frame, if weight was the issue.

[Frank Srebro]

Gun looks honest to me. I would have been in the running if I knew it was up for sale. Just for comparison here's a pic of 12-ga and 20-ga/3 inch breeches on a 2-framed VH. Both 32 inchers. The 20-ga is stamped 4^11, a tad lighter than the one discussed here. Barrels actually weigh 4^4 and chambers measure a few thou under 3 inches long.

For those of you coming to the Northeast SxS two weeks hence, I'll probably have the Super 20 as I call her, out at the Bo-Whoop Long Range shooting butt. She does well at far off game and I want to try her on those targets. Stop by if you want to check her out.

PS I've taken a few turkeys using 20 gauge/3-inch Western Super-X papers, folded crimp with 1-1/4 oz of #4 shot. I'm now nursing an almost full box. Good to go for another 20 or so birds. :)

http://i1044.photobucket.com/albums/b450/silvers897/IMG-9999_zps2b532d2e.jpg (http://s1044.photobucket.com/user/silvers897/media/IMG-9999_zps2b532d2e.jpg.html)

[Jay Gardner]

Even though it may be a rare configuration, is not the price excessive for a gun with little condition and a probably non original butt treatment?

I wonder the same thing. Only the buyer knows what drove him/her to that price. Perhaps they have or know where the second set of barrels are. Or perhaps they just got caught up in the moment, which is why I avoid auctions.

[Bill Murphy]

The buyer wasn't the only one who found the price appealing. It takes at least two bidders to reach a selling price. As I suggested in an earlier post, the request for "light as can" refers to the 16 gauge barrels, not the 20s.

[Dean Romig]

Still leaving the question unanswered "Why build the gun on a 2-frame rather than a 1 or 1 1/2 ?"

[Russ Jackson]

And the other question ,Do WE know who the new owner is yet ? Is he a PGCA Member ?

[Patrick Lien]

I am certain the new owner knew exactly what he was buying. I suspect he gets up every day looking for these unique type of parkers.

[Craig Larter]

The only reason I can think of for building a long barreled 20ga on a #2 frame WITH a recoil pad was a very recoil sensitive duck hunter.

[tom tutwiler]

Parkers version of a SuperFox 20 Gauge??

[Craig Larter]

I am a fox guy but can't understand a 8lb 20ga duck gun---a super fox or super parker 20 why? A 12 or 10 can be made the same weight and are so much more effective on game. A 2 7/8" 10 is the best choice for ducks in my experience. The big 20 must have been a fad that attracted quite a few fans in the 20's. Just something different to chat about in the blind or while sipping a touch of brown with the boys in front of a fire after a good shoot

[William Davis]

It would be just the thing for the Sub Gauge event at the Southern.

Bill

[Bill Murphy]

Something even more useless, like a 32" GHE 28 gauge on a #2 frame would have sold for probably $35,000. The 20, in contrast, is a bit of a bargain. Utility seldom flames the fires of Parker collecting. Rarity does the job.

[Dave Noreen]

Parkers version of a SuperFox 20 Gauge??

That is how I consider my 32-inch, 2-frame, 20-gauge --

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v316/Ansleyone/Parker/Big2001.jpg

[Bill Murphy]

The big Orren R. Dickey 20, #153,467, arrived yesterday. The loss of blue near the breech is the worst part of the wonderful barrels. The screws, the stock finish, and the floorplate mortise are perfect and original. The original inletting for the dogs head buttplate is intact and the length of pull over the leather faced Silver pad is 14 1/2". This gun may have hunted ducks, but never from a boat. The bores are .615, chokes are a full .028 and .028 and the chambers seem to be near 3", although I haven't measured them carefully with a machinist's scale. I test fired the gun yesterday on a round of skeet and everything works as it should. Considering where the gun came from, it may have been one of Nash Buckingham's buddies who ordered such an oddball gun. As I stated before, my old #153,333, VH 20, 32", #2 frame, ordered by the same dealer the same month as my new gun, was chambered for 3" shells, for one ounce loads. I would like to locate this gun with the possibility of buying it back. I hope everyone enjoyed the thread.

[Steve Cambria]

Nice pick-up Bill. Perhaps a light workout at the Bo-Whoop station this weekend?? No doubt an associate of Nash. Just look at those alligator side-panels on that Silver!

[Bill Murphy]

Steve, the pad did draw a few comments at the skeet range from the K-Gun shooters. I guess they wanted one like it.

[Kenny Graft]

I bought a VH PG-DT-SF O frame 16 two barrel set few weeks back from G.I. 26" IC/M and 32" F/F, correctly marked 1 and 2, each set has its own for end...its has nice hi stock dimensions and DHBP 14-1/4, 1-3/8, 2-3/8 Bright bores, short chambers, has light outside freckling but is overall very nice shotgun. 6lbs 1oz 26" and 6lbs-10oz 32" S.N. 197902 I would like a nice maker case for it with Parker bro. label, anyone have one??? thanks all Kenny Graft SXS ohio

[Bill Murphy]

Kenny, I'll find a case for it if you'll sell it to me. It sounds like my kind of gun. By the way, the last 16 I bought from you is resting nicely in my safe. It is a wonderful gun.

[Russ Jackson]

Bill' Congrats on a Wonderful Gun :bowdown: ! I figured one of the PGCA Boys had to pick this one up ! Russ

[Russ Jackson]

Double Clicked !

[Alfred Greeson]

Could a VHE 20 ga. O frame with 3" chambers possibly be factory, vintage 1916?

[Brian Dudley]

I would think a gun like that to be special ordered. And a fsctory letter should reflect that if so.

I believe some of the duck club guns were 3" chambered 20g. But they were 1 frame guns???

[Alfred Greeson]

The O frame made me wonder but this gun is in great condition and does not appear to have ever had a screw turned on it. Most that I have read about that you would think were ordered for ducks were on heavier frames but I suppose you could order whatever you wanted. Interesting. Thanks for the info., it is one of those Parkers that just fits and really comes up nice and you can tell it is well built, checkered, etc.

[Patrick Lien]

Could a VHE 20 ga. O frame with 3" chambers possibly be factory, vintage 1916?

Alfred
Yes, Parker built 20ga O frame guns with 3" chambers in 1916. There are west coast duck guns in this configuration for sure. A letter on your gun may verify the long chambers if it was ordered this way.

Patrick

[Alfred Greeson]

Patrick,
Thanks for the info. I would have to think that would make this little 20 somewhat of a rare item. Is that correct? I honestly bought it sight unseen from a dealer who I knew dealt in high grade Parkers and he liked this one enough that he just took it home and put it in the safe and I was lucky enough to get him to price it. The 3" chamber was never mentioned.
Have a great weekend and let me say the first Happy Father's Day to everyone.
Al.

[Bill Murphy]

Alfred, I would recommend you order a PGCA letter to find out how your gun was ordered. 3" chambered 20s were built in 0, 1, and 2 frame size. Tell us more about your gun.

[Dave Noreen]

When thinking about these long barrel, long chambered 20-gauge guns, from the days before progressive burning smokeless powder, remember they didn't use a load any heavier than our 20-gauge Skeet loads of today, 2 1/2 drams equiv. pushing 7/8 ounce of shot. Back in the first 22 years of the 20th Century, our North American ammunition companies offered 20-gauge shells in 2 1/2, 2 3/4, 2 7/8 and 3-inch lengths. The maximum load offered in the 2 1/2 inch shell was 2 1/4 drams of bulk smokeless powder or 18 grains of dense smokeless powder such as Ballistite or Infallible pushing 7/8 ounce of shot. The maximum load offered in the 2 3/4, 2 7/8 and 3-inch shells was 2 1/2 drams of bulk smokeless powder or 20 grains of Ballistite or Infallible pushing that same 7/8 ounce of shot. Their main advantage was more/better wadding.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v316/Ansleyone/Rem-UMC/ARROW20-gauge_zpsccfc0ef9.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v316/Ansleyone/Rem-UMC/20gaArrow27801.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v316/Ansleyone/Rem-UMC/20-gauge3-inchRem-UMCArrow.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v316/Ansleyone/Peters%20Cartridge%20Co/PetersPremier3-inch20-gauge.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v316/Ansleyone/Rem-UMC/RemingtonArmsCoInc20-gaugeArrow3-inch_zpse9560aa7.jpg

In 1922, Western Cartridge Co. brought progressive burning smokeless powder to North American 20-gauge shotgunners with their Super-X 1 ounce load put up in their 2 3/4 inch FIELD shell. Other makers followed suit and put their 20-gauge, 1 ounce, progressive burning powder loads up in a 2 3/4 inch shell. Peters Cartridge Co. is the one company I've found that offered their 1 ounce High Velocity 20-gauge load in extra length cases --

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v316/Ansleyone/Peters%20Cartridge%20Co/20-gauge3-inch.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v316/Ansleyone/Peters%20Cartridge%20Co/PetersHigh-Velocityloads1927.jpg

[Bill Murphy]

My 3" #2 frame 20, which I no longer own, was ordered in 1910 to shoot 1 ounce loads with 3 drams of powder. I think I have an order copy for one other 3" 20 gauge ordered from PB to shoot this load. I have no idea about the availability of factory shells loaded with this specific loads.

[Alfred Greeson]

Thank you Bill,
My 20 ga. is an O frame and it has 26 inch barrels with a 14 3/8 " length of pull so it fits well but I just did not picture the O frame with 26 inch barrels being built for ducks but what else would explain the 3 " chambers. Seems that quite often the 20 ga's may have been built for a lady or youngster and usually had a much shorter length of pull. Of course you read of the salesman who shot a 410 on doves and ducks so who knows. this one seems to be something different. Thanks for all the input. As I mentioned earlier, I just renewed my membership but have followed the forum for some time and learned a lot about Parkers from you guys. Too much info. to not see the pictures and the chicken coup C grade put me over the edge. Since then I have found a VHE 12 Ga. that a friend called me about in a pawn shop. It was a great price but he failed to mention that the forend was missing but with the help of you guys again, I have found a forend.
Thanks for all the help, it keeps my poor man's Parker collection going. Al.

[Dave Noreen]

I went through the first 2000 Ansley H. Fox 20-gauge records looking for 20-gauges ordered for the 2 7/8 or 3-inch shells. Found 47. Two 26" barrels, 19 28" barrels, 19 30" barrels and seven 32" barrels. A few were ordered heavier weight, up to 7 pounds 1 ounce, but most were in the very normal 6 pounds to 6 pounds 6 ounce range. The lightest was a 28" CE-Grade at 5 pounds 11 ounces.

Of the 62 Super-Fox 20-gauges in the records only three were ordered chambered for 3-inch shells. It appears that by the time progressive burning powder came along, shooters were satisfied with what the manufacturers gave them in a 2 3/4 inch case.

[charlie cleveland]

those sure are some interesting lentghs of 20 ga shells i really enjoy seeing these posted... i also like to hear of these 3 inch chambered guns...charlie