Underlifter Parkers at SXS

[Richard B. Hoover]

I am writing an article for Parker Pages. I would like to get more data on the bore and chamber dimensions of early Parkers. I will bring my Browne and Sharpe micrometers to the SXS. I would greatly appreciate the help of any PGCA members who will let me measure their early Parkers of any gauge---but I am extremely interested in measuring the bores of 8-, 11-, and 14-ga guns.

Please let me know if you will be bringing something cool. Hope to see all my friends at the SXS. I look forward to doing some shooting at Deep River.:bigbye:

Richard

[Brian Dudley]

I will have a number of early guns at my table. I will have a T-Latch gun (no. 49), back action (no. 1500), a front action (no. 1219) and a 17,000 serial range lifter. All in 12g. You are more than welcome to take all the measurements you want.

[Gary Carmichael Sr]

RICHARD I ALSO WILL HAVE A NUMBER OF EARLY GUNS YOU CAN MEASURE, GARY

[Mills Morrison]

I will try to bring one or two of my early ones.

[Brian Dudley]

Are you sure your car will hand the weight of a few more guns in addition to that 8ga? :rotf:

[Mills Morrison]

:rotf:No kidding. I may have to bring my truck.

[William Davis]

Will have # 8326 12 G Hammer Lifter with me too.

Bill Davis

[Richard B. Hoover]

Fantastic, guys! I look forward to meeting you all next week.

[Harold Lee Pickens]

I have been trying to get my friend to sell me his underlever 10. He says he will never, ever shoot it--and it needs ALOT of work/restoration. I may bring it to the Southern just to get an idea from some of you knowledgable folks as to its value and what it would take to put it back into shape.
What the hell am I going to do with a 10 ga???

[Dean Romig]

Turkeys...

[Mills Morrison]

Also ducks

[Mike.Smith]

Richard, I don't have anything real unique, but I'll be shooting two 12ga Parker Hammer Guns this coming weekend, a Grade 0 and a Grade 1, both from 1888. You're welcome to measure them if you wish.

Mike

[Richard B. Hoover]

I have been trying to get my friend to sell me his underlever 10. He says he will never, ever shoot it--and it needs ALOT of work/restoration. I may bring it to the Southern just to get an idea from some of you knowledgable folks as to its value and what it would take to put it back into shape.
What the hell am I going to do with a 10 ga???

Harold,

If you bring your 10-ga to the SXS, you can shoot it if you wish. I have an 11-ga #2442 that was chambered for 10-ga shells. I bought a set of lil skeeters chamber inserts that convert the chambers from 10-ga shells to 12-ga shells. I have also found a great recipe giving low pressure.
AA Hull
1 1/8 oz #8 or 7 1/2 shot
18 gr. Green Dot powder
PC red wad
1090 ft/sec at only 7,300 psi

If you want to shoot your new 10-ga, I will be happy :p to let you borrow my chamber inserts. I also have a new 11-ga (4005) that is chambered for 12-ga shells that I plan to shoot.:rotf:

Richard

[Richard B. Hoover]

I have been trying to get my friend to sell me his underlever 10. He says he will never, ever shoot it--and it needs ALOT of work/restoration. I may bring it to the Southern just to get an idea from some of you knowledgable folks as to its value and what it would take to put it back into shape.
What the hell am I going to do with a 10 ga???

Harold,

One of my 11-ga Parkers is chambered for 10-ga shells. I bought a set of 10 to 12-ga Lil Skeeters chamber inserts and shoot it with 12-ga shells. If you want to shoot your 10-ga at the SXS, I will be happy to let you use my chamber inserts.

Richard

[Harold Lee Pickens]

Rich,
thanks for the offer and hope to meet you next week at the Southern. The 10 ga in question is not mine--he wont sell it--yet. I don't think it is in shootable condition currently, needs a firing pin on one side and some other work on the stock. When he pulled it out of the case, it had some rust developing which I took care of for him. Hopefully he will change his mind.

[Rich Anderson]

Alas I have but one lifter BUT it is a 16ga and I'll do my best to fit it in if you wish.

[Rick Losey]

Alas I have but one lifter BUT it is a 16ga

:violin:

[Richard B. Hoover]

Alas I have but one lifter BUT it is a 16ga and I'll do my best to fit it in if you wish.

Fabulous! What year was it made? Love to see it.

[Richard B. Hoover]

Alas I have but one lifter BUT it is a 16ga and I'll do my best to fit it in if you wish.

Fabulous! What year was it made? Love to see it.:envy::envy::envy:

[Rich Anderson]

The lifter is from 1878. I'll also have two other 16ga hammerguns with me.

[jack mccrocklin]

MR Hoover,
i am occasionally asked to view inherited gun "collections" and very recently found myself holding an 1870 era lifter.
The family had no idea whatsoever what they had, but we know its been in this family for several generations.
I went back into my collection of DOUBLE GUN JOURNALS and found your superb article on "The Poker Parker No 3561" from volume twenty, 2009.
I have arranged a follow-up visit to more thoroughly examine and record the markings, mic the bores, and get better photos etc., than the first, rather rushed meeting allowed.
I intend to follow the steps suggested from the PGCA and request a factory letter. Since this gun is in Louisiana, I am all the more fascinated by the Louisiana connection of the Poker Parker.
This new find is a lower dollar grade gun bearing more similarity to serial 24590 as shown in volume seventeen, Autumn 2006 (issue 3) of DGJ, (pg 121)... but does bear the gold shield on wrist.
Any specific suggestions you could offer as to what markings to look for other than those listed for more modern guns would be sincerely appreciated. I am aware that this may possibly be an 11 ga. I have noted the bore measurements of >740"-.763" from your article to further investigate this possibility.
Thanks,
JSM

[Robin Lewis]

I would suggest you go to the "Parker Grades" web page and look at the lifter information & pictures there to get familiar with lifters.

If the shield "is" gold the gun will be a high grade gun but more probable it is a silver shield used on lower grade Parker's that looks gold simply because the stock finish has aged to make it appear gold.

Look over the Parker Identification web page too. The markings on the water table and barrels will tell you what you are looking at even on lifters.

If you are new to Parker shotguns, the links off the main page have a lot of material that will help you learn about them.

[Rick Losey]

if you post the serial number there is some chance the gun is in the serialization book, and basic stats such as grade, gauge, barrel length, and stock configuration can be confirmed

the markings on the top barrel rib are helpful, as are any marking on the barrel flats, the watertable (flats on the action) and the sides of the lock's engraving if any.

if the number is not in the book - a good close up of the muzzle and the muzzle end of the top rib may help determine if the barrels are original length.

clear pictures of the whole gun and the wood help to determine condition

[Kevin McCormack]

Richard, what happened to you? I thought you were going to come see me about that LOOOOG trunk case I brought to the Southern to sell. Too late now; some old guy bought it, grumbling about the fact that the new handle I put on it wasn't "original" and that he was skeptical about it being able to fit and handle his 8 ga. underlifter hammer Grade 5 with 40 inch barrels...........

[Tom Carter]

Mr. Hoover, Could you please post the numbers for an 11 gauge chamber or possibly a reference where they can be found? Thank you, Tom

[Richard B. Hoover]

MR Hoover,
i am occasionally asked to view inherited gun "collections" and very recently found myself holding an 1870 era lifter.
The family had no idea whatsoever what they had, but we know its been in this family for several generations.
I went back into my collection of DOUBLE GUN JOURNALS and found your superb article on "The Poker Parker No 3561" from volume twenty, 2009.
I have arranged a follow-up visit to more thoroughly examine and record the markings, mic the bores, and get better photos etc., than the first, rather rushed meeting allowed.
I intend to follow the steps suggested from the PGCA and request a factory letter. Since this gun is in Louisiana, I am all the more fascinated by the Louisiana connection of the Poker Parker.
This new find is a lower dollar grade gun bearing more similarity to serial 24590 as shown in volume seventeen, Autumn 2006 (issue 3) of DGJ, (pg 121)... but does bear the gold shield on wrist.
Any specific suggestions you could offer as to what markings to look for other than those listed for more modern guns would be sincerely appreciated. I am aware that this may possibly be an 11 ga. I have noted the bore measurements of >740"-.763" from your article to further investigate this possibility.
Thanks,
JSM

I have been traveling home from the SXS and just now reading me messages. If the gun has a gold shield on the wrist it is one of the top two grades. This is most easily determined by examining the sculpting of the bolsters. If it contains a full teardrop (like 3561) it is the highest grade ($250 or Grade 6 equivalent) If the teardrop goes only 3/4 way to the standing breech it is the $200 (grade 5equivalent). Both are quite rare and very highly prized. If you can send the serial number and photos it will be possible to give more precise information.

Richard

[Richard B. Hoover]

Richard, what happened to you? I thought you were going to come see me about that LOOOOG trunk case I brought to the Southern to sell. Too late now; some old guy bought it, grumbling about the fact that the new handle I put on it wasn't "original" and that he was skeptical about it being able to fit and handle his 8 ga. underlifter hammer Grade 5 with 40 inch barrels...........

Sorry I missed out on the case. I spent most of my time in the Parker tent measuring gun barrels.

By the way, Why didn't you put an original handle on it for the nice gentleman? :crying: :o:knowbetter:He may also be unhappy if your non-original handle foes not hold up under the weight of those big barrels. When he brings it back, give me a call. I have nice light weight 11-bores.:bowdown:

[Richard B. Hoover]

Mr. Hoover, Could you please post the numbers for an 11 gauge chamber or possibly a reference where they can be found? Thank you, Tom

Tom,

From looking at the 1873 and 1874 order books it seems that by that late period the majority of the 11-ga Parkers were chambered for 12-A brass shotshells. these have essentially identical diameters to a modern 12-ga shell (0.810" head to 0.800" mouth). A modern 12-ga shell fits perfectly in these chambers. These chambers are in the Parker 11-ga #4005 that I shot in the hammer-gun event on Sunday morning.

Some 11-ga Parkers were chambered for the brass 10A shells--a modern 10-ga shell fits these chambers perfectly.

Several of the very early 11-bore Parkers (1866-1874) were chambered for the 11 paper or 11A brass shells (0.825" head to 0,810" mouth). My poker Parker has these chambers. If a 12-ga shell is loose and a 10-ga shell will not go in the chambers, the gun is chambered for the extremely rare (almost non-existent) 11-ga shells. In this case the chambers provide a solid test.

As a result of this fact, several of the early Parker 11-ga guns were chambered for 12A or 10 A shells based on what we have discovered by bore measurements, even though they are listed as 12-ga or 10-ga in the Parker Serialization due to the chambers and the way they were annotated in the stock and order books. These guns can only be recognized by careful study of the bores. Since most of the 11-ga guns pre-date the stock hooks and since many were erroneously entered as 10-ga or 12-ga, I think the number of 11-ga Parkers that were made could possibly be twice as many as are shown in the Serialization or as appear in the listing in the Parker Story.

[Mills Morrison]

Very interesting. I sure wish my supposed 11 gauge were not in the shop so you could check it out.

[Kevin McCormack]

Mr. McCrocklin, also see Double Gun Journal Volume 13, Issue 2 (Summer 2002), p. 43 for my article on a unique 10 ga. Grade 5 underlifter hammer gun, specifically the discussion on the vagaries of establishing grades before the numerical grading sequence was begun by Parker Bros., and some of the intracacies of determining grades after that, as in the case of extra embellishments, etc. The early ones will often surprise you!

[jack mccrocklin]

thanks to all for the tips re identifying the recently discovered lifter. I have the family bringing it to my shop tomorrow to begin the ID process.
this will be my first time to actually research the details of a Parker this old and I'm sure I'll need plenty of guidance.... but I know I'm in the right place.
I will post measurements, markings info, and pics asap.

[Richard B. Hoover]

I will have a number of early guns at my table. I will have a T-Latch gun (no. 49), back action (no. 1500), a front action (no. 1219) and a 17,000 serial range lifter. All in 12g. You are more than welcome to take all the measurements you want.

Brian,

We forgot to get the weight of your wonderful Back Action Parker 1500. Could you please let me know the weight of the whole gun? I very much enjoyed the time we spent together and thank you for replacing the firing pin of my 11-ga #4005.


Richard

[Brian Dudley]

The Weight of my back action gun No. 1500 is 9.5 lbs.

We ended up measuring it and found it was a 10g. chambered for 11g. brass shells.
When I had bought it, I thought it was a 12g. with oversized bores.

[Mills Morrison]

Very interesting, Brian

[kirbylawson]

What shells can/should I use for #4346 10-gauge?

[kirbylawson]

Recent purchase. I'm new to lifter and 10-ga Damascus and need info. on what shells are used today.
Chamber is 2.65" long, .848" at bottom and .860" at seat.
I plan to load plastic someday but can buy RST 2-7/8" or use
10-12 or 10-20 gauge little skeeters or chambermates and load 1100 FPS at a soft 7500 PSI also.
Barrels are sound with plenty of wall thickness at chamber and .776 dia. typical. choked .007" LEFT and .010" RIGHT.
Was this designed for brass cases?
Any suggestions or direction to a thread with chamber dimensions would be great.
Thanks a lot! This one should be lethal on squirrels and crows.
Cant wait to light up the old girl. Chamber mates and snap caps in the mail.
-Kirby Lawson

[kirbylawson]

Gun weighs 8# 8-1/2 oz
4# 6-oz unstruck barrel weight
#2 frame? 1.130" between firing pins.

[kirbylawson]

No mentors to assist a very excited Virgin Damascus lifter owner make a 140 year old 10 gauge hammer gun
Go boom?

[Dean Romig]

Yes, it was manufactured for use with brass cases.
A lot of us use RST shells and if, as you say they are, the barrels are safe, you can feel comfortable shooting RST ammo.






.

[Mills Morrison]

There are plenty of folks on here to help you. You should make sure your barrels are not too thin to shoot. If the gun is in good shape and does not have any mechanical problems, get some RST shells and have at it. That is how many of us started.

[kirbylawson]

Thanks gents.
Rst shells in transit. My concern is 2-5/8" chamber and 2-7/8" shells.
Also there is no forcing cones between end of chamber and barrel bores.
More like a step from .850 to .775 diameters. I have not personally seen
The absence of some taper (forcing cone) between the two.
K

[Dave Noreen]

From the sound of your description, your gun was made way back in the day for 2 5/8 inch brass shells. All the RST 10-gauge shells I see on their web page are 2 7/8 inch. If you like to tinker, you could cut down plastic Federal or Remington hulls to 2 5/8 inch and modify a loader to handle those short cases.

A far better solution, for lazy folks like myself, is to get a pair of 10- to 12-gauge Gauge Mates and shoot light 12-gauge reloads. My 12-gauge reloads in Remington STS hulls work great in the Gauge Mates.

[Brian Dudley]

It still has a forcing cone. It is just a lot shorter for use with brass shells.

[kirbylawson]

I agree 10-12 gauge chamber mates and light loads long term.
Does the 2-7/8 rst shell in the 2-5/8 chamber scare any knowledgeable
10 gauge folks? Chamber mates are on back order until Jan 1.
Rst shell will be here tomorrow. I also have 10-20 gauge chamber mates in transit. Just wanna shoot the old girl (safely) while it's nice outside. And before it gets shipped to Brad b. For stock repair and barrel browning. She'll likely be gone for awhile and we barely met.
K

[kirbylawson]

1875 gun.

[Mills Morrison]

Personally, I would shoot it, but that might be a bad idea

[Austin J Hawthorne Jr.]

Kirby,
I also have an 1875 10 ga. lifter with the abrupt shoulder at the forcing cone and a 2 5/8 inch chamber. When I first started shooting it I was a little concerned about a 2 7/8 in. case opening up into the barrel, but then I measured the bore and found that, like most Parker's of that vintage, the barrels were over bored to .805 inches. Unless you start reloading, which by the way is a lot of fun, I agree with our fellow members about using RST shells. Your gun, like mine, should have a 90 degree angle where the water table meets the standing breech instead of the radius like the later hammerguns. It is for that reason, and assuming your barrel walls are not to thin, that you might like to keep your loads on the light side if you do start reloading.
Have fun, shoot often, and you will learn to love the 10 gauge.

[kirbylawson]

Thanks Austin.
You are correct on chamber to bore geometry and sharp corner @ water table/standing breech. I'll double/triple check wall and chamber thickness but shes sound and plenty thick. I'm ready when shells or chamber mates arrive.
-K

[Jerry Harlow]

Kirby,
I also have an 1875 10 ga. lifter with the abrupt shoulder at the forcing cone and a 2 5/8 inch chamber. When I first started shooting it I was a little concerned about a 2 7/8 in. case opening up into the barrel, but then I measured the bore and found that, like most Parker's of that vintage, the barrels were over bored to .805 inches. Unless you start reloading, which by the way is a lot of fun, I agree with our fellow members about using RST shells. Your gun, like mine, should have a 90 degree angle where the water table meets the standing breech instead of the radius like the later hammerguns. It is for that reason, and assuming your barrel walls are not to thin, that you might like to keep your loads on the light side if you do start reloading.
Have fun, shoot often, and you will learn to love the 10 gauge.

Austin,

So you are shooting 2 7/8" shells in the 2 5/8" chambers? I asked the question before and no one would say to do it. Yet most everyone had no problem shooting 2 3/4" in 12 gauge with shorter chambers or even in 20 where pressures are even higher.

The 10, due to a larger surface area I would think would handle the low pressure loads with thin modern plastic even better than a 12 or 20. I just hate loading 2 5/8" for my 1878 lifter and then 2 7/8" for my top lever. Too much inventory.

[Mills Morrison]

I have a 10 gauge Parker in the 13,xxx range. Oops, looks like I shot the wrong kind of shells in it.

The wood is probably a greater concern than the barrels on those early Parkers

[Austin J Hawthorne Jr.]

Jerry,
I actually start out with 3 in. hulls in an Ithaca 10 gauge with 2 7/8 in chambers. The I reload them again for a second firing in the Ithaca. Since I roll crimp, after 2 firings the case mouth gets a little rough so I trim them to 2 7/8 inches and use them in the Parker. After two firings in the Parker, I trim them again to 2 3/4 inches. Once they have been fired six times I either discard them or trim them to 2 1/2 inches for an old english single barrel...load them with rocksalt....and shoot cave crickets in the basement with them.
Love those 10 gauges.

[Mike Franzen]

Kirby if you are shooting your gun at targets the chamber mates will be fine. If you are going to hunt with it I would suggest black powder loads in brass shells. IMHO nothing exemplifies the killing ability of the 10's like brass shell loads.

[kirbylawson]

Thank you for the input.
I fired her off tonight with RST light 1 -1/8 ounce loads.
What a hoot!
I need to document more detailed bore/choke dimensions as it throws a very tight pattern. I'm curious how my 7/8" soft 12-gauge reloads will react.
It will be Jan.1 before I get the Chamber-Mates. 10-20 ga set wiil be her soon to use up some 20-ga softly rolled stuff in the interim.
Great fun for Christmas. An added bonus is my letter arrived today and the old girl is still in factory attire. Thanks Mr. Bishop for the blazing fast research and processing of my request.
-Kirby