VH 12 with Briley thin-walled tubes

[Grantham Forester]

Looking at a Meriden mfg. VH 12- 30" barrels uncut, DT, Ext- No 1& 1/2 frame. Shot it recently at a Tower shoot with the tighter choked tubes installed- good LOP, mechanics, stock dims-- BUT- as it has been "altered" is it worth less on the used Parker market of today, than had it been left with the original factory chokes?? Just wondering, before I consider making the owner an offer. Not refinished, about 70% barrel blue, 80% stock varnish- DHBP with top in-letted spur, all screws clocked and not marred, splinter FE- good checkering, about 25% case colors on receiver and top tang area. Thanks!! GF:)

[Brian Dudley]

Yes. The installation of the chokes severely effects collector value. It basically makes it a shooter.

[Bruce Day]

That is one person's opinion. The universe of Parker owners and buyers is much larger than the handful who post here regularly and still much larger than the number of PGCA members. Judging from the number of like questions we get here, there are a substantial number of people who are interested in multiple choke tubes for old Parkers.

Such a gun would not be attractive to me, but then I am kind of picky and I know there would be a lot of people away from here who are or would be interested.

[Bill Murphy]

Bruce is right. There is a seat for every butt. A Briley choked VH in average condition is worth about what an average original VH is worth. Go for it. It sounds like a great gun.

[Carvel Whaley]

I have a 20 ga Trojan that has had the barrels cut long before I got the gun, I assume to remove most of the choke. I use it to rabbit hunt and to shoot clays on occasion. Since the "damage" has already been done, what is you folks opinion on value, up or down, on having screw in chokes added at this point? Thanks. Carvel

[Bill Murphy]

Do it. It will probably increase the value of the gun as much as the cost of the chokes.

[John Dallas]

Given that it will cost +/- $500 for the chokes, even if the value of the gun isn't affected, you're upside down by $500. Better to buy a gun that has already been modified

[charlie cleveland]

i with bill on this one..for a shooter it seems like the chokes would be a plus to the gun..and i think if i were a buyer on this gun it would appeal to me more with the brileys.. if the price is right go for it..i think a gun in the shape you discribe would be in the 800 to 1000 price line...charlie

[todd allen]

I have a friend who wants a higher grade (maybe D grade) with choke tubes. We have debated this back and forth between an original vs. repro. I think the repro has chrome lined bbls, adding to the complication of installing choke tubes, so it will probably come down to modifying a Parker or Remington built gun.

[Jerry Harlow]

For the right price (value of an equivalent unaltered gun minus a little), I'd buy the gun in a minute. My favorite chokes are IC/Full. Seldom see a gun like that, but you have whatever combination you want right at your hands. And even thought it is $500 for Briley, add another $100 to get it there and back. So if you buy it for a fair price, that amount is his loss and your gain. At least the gun is uncut, which was the old method to open up and lighten a gun for close game.

[Grantham Forester]

I borrowed a friend's copy of the 2010 edition of this blue book by S.P. Fjestad- page 1381- shows the VH in 12 gauge in 80% condition as to finish at $4000.00 No deduction for after-market choke tubes, whether by Briley or other barrel experts. How accurate is this Blue Book for realistic market values for long out-of-production double shotguns, I wonder?

[Dave Suponski]

Grantham, I don't put much faith in the Blue Book. A Parker or any collectible gun is worth what the seller will take and the buyer will pay. A wise old collector told me years ago that"You can't pay too much for a high condition original gun you can only pay it too soon"

[Bruce Day]

I borrowed a friend's copy of the 2010 edition of this blue book by S.P. Fjestad- page 1381- shows the VH in 12 gauge in 80% condition as to finish at $4000.00 No deduction for after-market choke tubes, whether by Briley or other barrel experts. How accurate is this Blue Book for realistic market values for long out-of-production double shotguns, I wonder?

The Blue Book values are compiled by Bill Mullins, a PGCA director, coauthor of the Parker Story and long time Parker editor. They are reasonably accurate. The inaccuracy comes from over estimation of condition or not reading the preamble to the section which refers to Parkers in original condition. After market choke tubes are not original condition. Blue Book values are historical and people use historical sales data for all kinds of purposes, such as home sales, land sales and old gun sales, or a person can make up his own.

[Dave Suponski]

Exactly...And you can have two very knowledgable collectors looking at the same gun and be apart on condition. I hold to my original statement. And I am sure Bill knows I mean no disrespect.

[Grantham Forester]

So, as the book I have is 4 years ago, would that same VH 12 (given accurate condition today) be worth more than $4000 in today's market. The same person also has a AH Fox 12 Grade A- same specifications as the VH 12 (double triggers, standard extractors) but without the added Briley choke tubes, and more as 90% condition- not refinished. I realize this is a Parker based website, and not geared to the Fox guns per se, but the same 2010 Blue Book shows this Fox gun at about half the value of the VH-

I tend to agree that in spite of the expense the owner incurred for the Briley chokes- installed into uncut-down barrels, that might make the VH less "original" and worth a bit less that this Blue Book indicates??

Many thanks to all who have answered my posting, lot of good solid data and insight here, all for the asking!!:whistle:

[Mark Ouellette]

Altered barrels be they cut or have screw in chokes reduces the value of the gun by half. Use this as a guide and you will not pay too much.

An 80% gun would be a screamer! Please shoot some photos and share with us.

[Bill Murphy]

Grantham, please post the exact wording from the Blue Book that tells you that there is no value penalty for screw chokes in a $4000 VH.

[Brian Dudley]

When I mention that collector value is greatly diminished by the addition of screw in chokes. I mean exactly that. An original condition gun has been altered greatly from its original configuration and the value as an original collector is no more.
And as I mention, there is another side to this coin and that is the "shooter" aspect of it. A shooter is something that is in a condition that reduces collector value or had had alterations that make it a departure from original. Shooters have value in their own right because one can take it out and hunt/great clays with it to their hearts content and have no worries about effecting the value of the gun.
Sometimes, alterations such as the addition of chokes give the gun a versatility that is valuable to some shooters.
I myself was considering the purchase of a VH about a year back that had screw in chokes installed. The price was right and the gun was in decent shape. But I thought about it too long and it sold to another party.
I would have never considered putting screw in chokes into a 80% condition gun myself. But if someone else has already done the deed and the price is right, why no buy it?

[Bruce Day]

Yes well there are all sorts of collectors. Several years ago I was approached by a person who wanted " an original Parker 28ga with lots of gold" and what it cost was insignificant.

Then there was the person who called me from Phoenix and wanted me to find him another 20ga VHE because he had one before and he tried to have that made into an A-1S by a local guy who said he could engrave it. The guy did a terrible job and ruined the gun so now he was looking for another 20ga because he had another engraver down there who this time could make it into a perfect A-1S. He was willing to pay book price. I did not help him.

I don't know what collectors like. I do know what I like and what my friends who have nice guns like.

The more I learn, the less I know.

[Jerry Harlow]

I believe in the Blue Book when it says 80% it is referring to case colors and a gun in that condition should have 95% + blue and wood. There should be a footnote that explains that. An 80% case-colored gun is very rare. If it is all gone you are talking about a $1000 gun, +/- in my humble opinion. Photos and someone may p.m. you with a good opinion of value.

[Grantham Forester]

Grantham, please post the exact wording from the Blue Book that tells you that there is no value penalty for screw chokes in a $4000 VH.
I re-and re-read in the 2010 copy of Mr. Fjestad's Blue Book- from pages 1378 through 1383, even used a magnifier for the fine print, and could NOT find any reference to the value-added factor for the Briley installed tubes? Would this VH be worth more if the Briley tubes were installed by the Briley folks in TX, as opposed to one of their licensed installer/gunsmiths, perhaps? If so, should I ask the party that owns this "fine shooter" if he has a letterheaded bill from Briley, that references this VH Parker by exact serial number? Thanks

[Grantham Forester]

Altered barrels be they cut or have screw in chokes reduces the value of the gun by half. Use this as a guide and you will not pay too much.

An 80% gun would be a screamer! Please shoot some photos and share with us. My mistake-- the VH Parker is NOT the 80% condition gun- the AH Fox 12 A Grade is-had been in private safe storage from about WW11 outbreak in Poland until perhaps the last few years--As this is not a Fox forum, perhaps I should not have mentioned it here- my bad. I can't get someone to take good photos or provide the serial number data of either gun right now- if important, I can ask the owner of both these nice pre-WW11 double guns for the serial numbers and markings, possibly photos after that, but 100% do-able if I end up buying either, or both guns- then I will be glad to do so.

May I ask- of which Big Ten College football team are you friendly with? I am a Illini fan (my wife is an Alumnus) but trying to support them each Fall seems a bit futile- much like picking the Lions to win a SuperBowl, or the Twins to win a World Series--:whistle::whistle:

[Mark Ouellette]

What the heck is football? This is a gun collecting forum. :)

Big Friend Ten is my DH 10 in darn fine condition! That name is more polite than its actual name of my Big F---ing Ten!

As for a Big Ten College, ya you bet ya! Parris Island and a decade later The Basic School for Marine Officers at Quantico Virginia. Are those big enough? :rotf:

[Bill Murphy]

Grantham, go back and read your post referring to the Blue Book's failure to mention the "choke tube penalty" We answered your question, whether you realize it or not. Actually, an 80% VH 12 gauge is probably worth $5000 or more on today's market, unless it has choke tubes, in which case it would be worth about $1500. Your reference to "value added" was not part of the original question. The original question referred to "value decreased".

[Grantham Forester]

What the heck is football? This is a gun collecting forum. :)

Big Friend Ten is my DH 10 in darn fine condition! That name is more polite than its actual name of my Big F---ing Ten!

As for a Big Ten College, ya you bet ya! Parris Island and a decade later The Basic School for Marine Officers at Quantico Virginia. Are those big enough? :rotf: So, I just assumed when you mentioned the Big Ten- well- my bad I guess. I have never seen a Big Ten gauge double gun, from your photo, your gun is in fine condition. Why is the top opening lever have a slight bend in its shape?? A real piece of craftsmanship, all engraved and with the snake-like lines of a King Cobra!!

[Grantham Forester]

I am afraid I may have not completely understood your suggestion as to a re-reading of the Blue Book's details. If I understand you correctly, an 80$ conditioned 12 VH might be worth $5000 on today's market, and lose $3500 with the alteration of the Briley thin-walled tubes, is that the case. Wow- what a financial loss to the owner.

I just spoke with him, he bought this gun at a gun show about 5 years ago, sent it to Briley's for the tube(s) installation, and has the supporting documents-so if he wanted to sell it to any well versed Parker collector, he would take a "bath" akin to those late comers who invested with Bernie Madoff? Wow- and wow again.

He is going to give the serial number(s), frame size, and with the A grade Fox- the barrel weight stamping number- and also similar details on a 12 DHE 30" F&F choked Parker he may think about selling- I shall also try to get some good detailed photos soon of these guns. Thanks again for your expertise and detailed explanations of current Parker gun values in today's market.

[Michael Murphy]

My take might be a bit different than most, but if you find a gun that you like, in great shape for a reasonable price and most importantly, that you shoot well - YOU BUY IT! Investment value is a secondary consideration.

[charlie cleveland]

i kinda figure old parkers are like old ford cars a rusty old parker will bring good money for the rite rusty old gun just like a rusty beatup old 34 ford roadster will bring a lot of change...charlie

[Grantham Forester]

My take might be a bit different than most, but if you find a gun that you like, in great shape for a reasonable price and most importantly, that you shoot well - YOU BUY IT! Investment value is a secondary consideration. The main focus of my questions here- what is the fair market value for this VH with the added Briley tubes. From all the well-informed answers I have read, it sounds like the gun is worth somewhat less than if the alteration had not been done. At least the barrels were NOT shortened..

[Ben Rawls]

I don't buy pristine guns. I like to shoot lots of shotguns and buying sound shooters lets me do that. I like to play with them and fettle them up a bit. I sold a very nice VH 12ga a few years ago for $1500. I'd put chokes in a "shooter" if I wanted to but I have discovered that many old guns shoot just fine if you look around for a load that does what you want. No real need to change chokes these days IMHO. I have a VHE from 1903 that I had recheckered but left the metal original. It is an English stocked 20ga 30" F/IC. I was somewhat upset by the chokes unitl my gunsmith(Henry Cheatham if any of you remember him) advised me that was the ideal quail gun in his opinion. Gun shoots very well and I think of Henry every fall when I take it out. Nicest thing about shooting old guns is the feeling of continuity with previous owners. As I remember I got the Parker and 5 Fox sterlingworths for $2200 There were 2 Philadelphia Gun Co guns in that mix. I kept the 16ga . My $.02.

[will evans]

I haven't been in to Parkers more than a couple of years, but I've had an interest in vintage guns for a long time. I think I can honestly say I have never seen an 80 percent Parker on the open market outside of a Julia's auction. I'll even go so far to say you probably cannot find one for sale on the internet. There might be one or two that can be found at one of the more exclusive gun shops. What is even more rare than the gun is the person who is knowledgeable enough to accurately place condition at 80%, AND, pays the money to acquire that condition, but who would then be foolish enough to install choke tubes. That's the real head shaker to me. My guess would be the choke tubes were the second mistake.

On a side note, I've seen a lot of 80% refinished guns. Those are usually grossly overvalued.