Super Fox HE with 2.5" chambers?

[will evans]

Seems a little odd. How would that happen, and for what purpose?

[charlie cleveland]

some things is a miss here..i dont see nothing super about a 2 1/2 inch chambered gun... charlie

[Dave Noreen]

How are you measuring the chamber? Super-Fox chambers are notoriously tight to assure the shell is perfectly centered to the bore, and hence many chamber gauges don't go in all the way to the break from the chamber to forcing cone.

[Frank Srebro]

Deleted, sorry.

[Bill Murphy]

I assume that a nominal 2 3/4" chamber would actually measure 2 5/8" as was common at the time. A tight 2 5/8" chamber may measure less than that with some chamber gauges. The only way to tell when the chamber actually starts is by watching a bore micrometer as it enters the forcing cone. Unfortunately, most 12 gauge bore micrometers will not extend to the diameter of a 12 gauge chamber. The alternative is to view a machinist's scale as it enters the forcing cone, a difficult process, but possible. I would like to hear Frank Srebro's take on this, since he has measured a bunch of HE Fox chambers.

[Frank Srebro]

I wouldn't be surprised if the Super-Fox in question is one that's currently on one of the on line auction sites. Just looking at the pics there, I don't see the proprietary Fox 3 IN chamber stamp, and without doing a record card check a reasonable assumption is, that S-F was/is chambered for 2-3/4" shells. Super-Fox chambers were "cut tight" to center the shells and allow a repeatable transition of the shot and wads into the forcing cone and bore. Using a standard chamber gauge, these S-F 2-3/4" chambers often appear to measure about 2-1/2". Personally I've never had good luck using the machinist scale method on Supers. It's very hard for me to feel the transition from the front of the chamber into the forcing cone. Others have reported it's worked for them, so what can I say?

I'm particulary interested in Supers with 3-inch chambers and have done a bunch of cerrosafe casting of said chambers on original guns. That led me to getting a some special gauges made to match the Fox chamber diameters and taper - which were not industry standard at the time. I usually have these gauges with me at shoots and am more than happy to measure Supers with 3-inch chambers to confirm or deny they are factory. I've seen many factory 2-3/4 and even 3 IN Super-Foxes that were redone with modern type 3-inch chamber reamers and they will measure overdiameter as compared with the special Super-Fox factory 3 IN chamber. Why rechamber a Fox factory 3 IN chamber? To make it easier to load with some 3-inch paper shells back in the day. To complicate things, most but not all 3-inch Fox factory chambered Supers are stamped 3 IN. In fact I measured two last year at Hausmanns that were not stamped 3 IN but were absolutely original-chambered. But two months before I measured two other Supers at Chuck's shoot at Blue Ridge that had more-less modern "sloppy" 3-inch chambers. Sometimes it's better not to know. Sorry for the long diatribe.

PS: I don't charge a fee to measure 3 IN Supers with my gauges but you will owe me a cigar or soft drink, etc. :)

Frank

[will evans]

Frank,

Thanks for the "diatribe". That's very helpful. You are correct regarding the gun in question.

Will

[David Noble]

The proper way to use the machinists scale to measure the chamber is to hold the barrels up to light while sliding the scale into the chamber, keeping the scale flat against the chamber wall. When the end of the chamber is reached the scale will lift as it enters the forcing cone allowing light to be seen beneath its edge. With practice this method will allow extremely close measurement of the chamber length.

[Bill Murphy]

I just look at the scale as it approaches the shadow. When it touches the shadow, I attempt to take a measurement. Will, I hope you are the lucky buyer.

[Mike Shepherd]

I also measure chamber lengths with my wall thickness gauge. There is a sudden and noticeable change of wall thickness at the end of most chambers.

I have a tuning fork type wall thickness gauge.

[will evans]

Not the lucky buyer, but I would guess someone who read this thread picked it up.

Rule #1 - Never ask about a gun that is listed online if you don't want someone else to say the gun is listed online.

I don't think I would have picked it up anyway.

[Frank Srebro]

This was far from a secret find. Many Fox guys search the internet auction sites every day. I had emails and PM's from 4 friends asking for my take on this gun, and that was over several days before the question was posted here. And I was aware of it myself even before the first person contacted me. Then, hours before the auction closed 3 other Fox nuts were emailing about the gun. It's almost impossible to e-list a Super-Fox these days without multiple people finding it within a day or two of listing. IME most of the good Supers are sold behind the scenes and they rarely hit the internet auction sites.

[Bill Murphy]

This particular Super Fox is a long way from becoming anything but a shooter. However, a $2600 shooter is a great buy for someone. The floorplate screw is a good sign.

[Rich Anderson]

Was this gun in MI? I know of one that really needs some work but the seller is/was way off base in value.

[will evans]

Chromox,

Thank you for your input and multiple edits, but this has been gone over again and again. I was just saying there is no reason to advertise any gun to anyone else. There were a few other people who perhaps hadn't yet made up their mind about the gun(perhaps some of those who asked you about the item in a private message?), and who perhaps didn't finish their thought process before someone else saw the item and then jumped all over it. Do I know that is what happened? Heck no, I don't know that. Good find or not - let people find what they spend the time finding. If I were mad you would know it. I'm not. The simple fact is that I did have an opportunity to buy the gun, and didn't because I didn't like the condition or chamber length. I was pretty sure I wasn't going to buy the gun before I asked the question since it didn't have 3" chambers, but I still didn't directly reference the gun for one, and only one reason. There are people who spend a lot of time looking for guns. I do not feel it it right to negate the time and effort they might be putting in to their hobby on a daily basis - and it is a hobby. That is all.

[Frank Srebro]

Rich, the gun was in SC.

Jawjadawg, I was going to let this slide until I read your statement that "if I were mad you would know it". That's the kind of language people long ago used with kids, and frankly it's demeaning to an adult. It sounds like you have an unilateral expectation that people can read your mind, and then join in covering up the source of your question. The fact is that Fox guys are just as dedicated as Parker guys and I think it's probable that several dozen gents already knew about that Super and the pic of the chamber gauge reading 2-1/2" that was included in its advert. (Readers here should know this was an auction that didn't have a Buy It Now and therefore no one could have bought the gun without others being able to enter a bid.) Let me suggest that if in the future you have a question like the one you posted here, that you do it by PM or email to a resource who can answer it privately. Not post it on a public forum and then try to dress down someone like me because my crystal ball isn't tuned to your wavelength.

[will evans]

My mistake. I've found this point to be unworthy of discussion in the past. People either agree or they don't. Your suggestion to me is 100% correct, and also redundant to the point I previously made; RE: my Rule #1, which I broke. I misinterpreted your reasons for carrying on about how it was appropriate for you to mention it. I thought you were being defensive, which usually means someone thinks the other is mad. It was a poorly stated sentence on my part, but that will also happen when someone decides to extract one sentence to apply their own context. I hope you will accept my apology. I also sincerely thank you for your input. The information provided was very helpful.

[Frank Srebro]

Thank you Jawjadawg. I think we both made some good points and have learned from the postings on this thread. I look forward to meeting you some day at a shoot or event. :)

[Bill Murphy]

It couldn't have been attractive to many people. Apparently only attractive to one person of the dozens, maybe hundreds of Fox collectors who saw the ad. Only one person bid. I'm usually a sucker for a neglected orphan, and might have bid if the gun had any interesting provenance.