Buying on the internet...

[will evans]

I want to add a recent Gunbroker experience so that perhaps a few others can learn from my mistake, or perhaps improve your process of dealing with online sellers and transactions.

I recently picked up a Manhattan Arms 16ga off Gunbroker. If you aren't familiar, Manhattan Arms was one of the trade branded guns that were actually The Fulton by Hunter Arms. None of the Hunter Arms trade branded guns turn up very often in 16ga, so I was excited to see one.

The gun looked good on the internet, with nice colors but the pictures were a bit blurry. Listing promised EXCELLENT. At $430 I purchased with assurance that the listed 26" barrels were uncut. So the EXCELLENT condition gun arrives with the minor handling marks promised in the wood and metal, but also with about a dozen Abe Lincoln sized areas of pitting up and down the exterior of the barrels. I don't know about you, but I don't consider rust to be a "minor handling mark". The pits had been covered over with cold blue so that they wouldn't show in the blurry pictures. Naturally, the seller claimed to have missed those imperfections. Uncut barrels show up with a small gap between the barrels and measuring 26-3/8" instead of the listed 26". Obviously shortened. The auction was AS-IS, which I hadn't worried about since the seller on Gunbroker: Freeman_Arms in Drexel, Mo., had promised the gun in excellent condition.

So we start going back and forth, politely even though this person starts saying they didn't see those items, isn't very knowledgeable on vintage guns, etc - basically claiming ignorance. We haggled back and forth about either returning or a significant refund but my fairness was always met with another attempt to nickle and dime. The gun was carefully packaged and upon receipt the seller says, "Well I got the gun back but you aren't going to be happy. The forearm got loose and chattered along the barrel, getting in to the blue. I see the package was insured. You should file a claim with insurance."

Surprised? Yes, I was, but I shouldn't have been surprised at all given the earlier misrepresentations.

I asked for pictures of the new "damage", which I was fortunately able to match up with my own pictures I had taken of the gun, and with the sellers own pictures. If I wouldn't have had the pictures then I am confident the dealer would have continued down the path of claiming the gun had been ruined by the forearm. I was incredulous that they would claim a tiny scratch to the blue had basically ruined the value of a gun that had rust pits and shortened barrels, but there you go. Fortunately, I had evidence that the damage was already present. DOCUMENT. DOCUMENT. DOCUMENT.

I was FINALLY able to get a refund, but this charade continued until I assured the seller that I intended file a fraud claim with Gunbroker and also to sing about their behavior on the internet. That is one seller whom I will never do business with again in the future.

Why am I telling this story? Naturally, this gun is now for sale again on Gunbroker, only now at a higher price after I convinced the seller these are really, really rare - but incredibly - still no mention of the rust pits, cold blue, and the barrels are still misrepresented as being 26" in length. Go figure.

[John Campbell]

So... All we really need to remember is NOT to trust these guys:

Freeman_Arms in Drexel, Mo.

From the "Show Me" state yet...

[Rick Losey]

I expect they are not alone

I have been watching GB for a certain something. I am amazed at the nuber of scant descriptions with fuzzy pictures and "as is". I leave those for someone else.

I looked at one item over the weekend where the seller had a lot of good feedbacks and only a few poor ones. Then I read them. __ the good ones were all as a buyer and the poor all as a seller.

Its a jungle out there

[Bill Murphy]

The "buyer-seller" feedback is something to be careful of. When I start selling on ebay, I will have 100% positive feedback on hundreds of transactions, but I have never sold an item.

[Richard Flanders]

I'm sitting here thinking about the few guns I've bought off the Net. I think only one of them, a Parker, was as described when I opened the box. The rest all had negatives that were conveniently not mentioned on the websites or even in phone conversations. From major dealers too, and major issues. One C Daly fwt wasn't out of the box long enough for my box cutter to cool off - it was a wreck. Top rib totally flapping loose for at least 8" and other issues related to the poor redo. I think if I had shot one shell in it the bbls would have separated and fallen onto the ground. Unbelievable - and not from a small dealer that one. And it seems that you always hear, "Gee, I didn't notice that here in the shop".... right.

[Brian Dudley]

I will add them to the short list of sellers to NEVER buy from.
Sometimes who is doing the selling is more important than what they are selling.

[Bill Zachow]

What amazes me is how the internet has brought out the worst sort crooks. I was lucky enough to have started my "non seen buying" back in the day of the Gun List. Never had a problem. Did not buy a lot but bought good. Some Parker lifters, Colt single actions and various Winchesters. Today, I have a simple rule. If I can't hold it in my hands, I am not going to buy. Life is too short to have to put up with idiots.

[Chris Travinski]

I once bought a DHE from a well known nation wide sporting goods retailer/gun dealer, no BSing you, when I opened the box my wife walked by and asked "why is the barrel fat like that?". There was a bulge 3-4" from the muzzle you could see from across the room. They took it back with no dispute, but I ate the shipping, the trip to the bank, the trip to the post office and a roll of packing tape etc. It's frustrating when you can't deal face to face, but I will say that any dealings I've had on the PGCA website have been excellent.

[Rich Anderson]

I don't use Gun Broker to amount to much and if it's listed as is that means no deal to me. With the cost of shipping back and forth,the time in transit and the potential of a problem it's a scary procedure. I'm considering the purchaseof an English hammergun (don't ask me why I couldn't explain it) from a reputable dealer whom I have heard nothing but good things. He will be at the Southern and I will examine it in person but to quote the dealer "I'll bring it if I still have it" pitch my reply was "If it's meant to be it will be there".

I must agree with Chris that any gun I have bought from our members has been exactly as described with no hidden issues.

[Steve McCarty]

I have never dealt with with Gunbroker, but I have with Guns International. I had a good experience. The gun was a Remington Model 11, 16 gauge. It was described as being nearly new with light rust spots and that is what it is. Just a light coating of very fine, hairlike rust. The gun is otherwise excellent. Price was $400. I had to pay my dealer an additional $45. The price was a bit high, but not too much, and the 16's don't come along every day. It is a 1937 gun. Where has it been all of these years?

I had a detailed telecon with the seller before i sent the cash. These guys do work on their reputation. The crook who is described above, should not be allowed to sell guns on the site. What a shame.

[Dennis V. Nix]

I agree with Steve about a dealer's reputation. When I was an FFL holder I sold some guns through Gunbroker. I was always as detailed in my descriptions as possible and listed as well as photographed every little nick or dent in the stock and scratch in the bluing. For me the name of the game isn't to send the merchandise on a vacation only to get it right back in a week or so. The goal is to sell and have it remain sold. I always felt my reputation was everything because I was raised that way. In years of selling I only had one gun returned. It was a 416 Rigby custom rifle and the buyer said it had too much recoil for him. I could have been a hardnose and refused to take it back but I okayed the return. When I got the gun back I noticed the fiberglass stock had a small scratch in the finish. I have since sold it and it was years ago. Even with things I sell today whether they be guns or cameras or whatever I value my reputation more than the sale. So far I have been lucky with a few items I have purchased as well.

Dennis

[Bruce Day]

Although I have not bought a gun off the internet, sometimes I have been asked by people I know to look at a gun for them, and I have provided I have the time then. I think quite a few members will do that for others.

Drexel, Missouri is about 25 miles from me and on my biking route.

[tom tutwiler]

I've been bit a few times. "As is" is a curse of gunbuyers. I've returned probably 4 guns over the years. Range from a Fox Pin gun that had the forearm put in place with I think Liquid Weld. The gun was fixed never to ever come apart again. Had a Fox Sterlingworth that the barrels were so bad I sold it for parts. Biggest problem was with Pawn Shops. Now, I've made a couple of good deals with bad pictures, but I have a rule of calling a seller and asking lots and lots of questions. If I hear one more time "its in good shape for an old gun" I'm going to lose my mind. The internet has opened a lot of doors for finding guns, but its opened a lot of scams as well.

[ed good]

I have been buying and selling on gunbroker and other internet web sites since 1997. here are my guidelines:

rule one: do not buy unless seller offers a clear return policy without you having to ask for it.

rule two: do not buy unless seller has substantial positive feedback or is willing to accept use of escrow service for payment.

rule three: do not buy if you do not know what you are buying.

rule four: if looking for something for nothing, shop elsewhere.

[tom coulter]

I guess I have been somewhat lucky. I have bought and sold on the internet, never having a major issue. I do like the rules above as I never thought of the escrow. I would much rather do face to face it was me, but that is not always an option

[Milton Starr]

Ive bought 2 doubles off Gb In the last 5 months .
One from hipless his names is Dale fisher , NY and one from waffen- something his name is Hans though he owns the dug up gun museum in Wyoming . Both of these guys are good to go in my book when it comes to buying old vintage doubles .:cheers: Mr.Dale wrapped my bonehill up extremely well infact I was going crazy because I was in such a hurry to open the box and I had to get through all the material keeping it safe :rotf:

[wayne goerres]

I am dealing with one right now who doesn't seem to do anything that he promises. havnt bought yet and I think I am going to tell him to take a flying leap. If he is this unreliable now I wonder what will happen after the sale.

[Mills Morrison]

There are all kinds on the internet. The other side of the coin are the ones who are actually honest and highlight the defects with the gun. Being the internet, you assume the gun is a little worse than described, so price in lesser condition in your bid. I have bought a few good Parkers this way

[Ralph nannola]

In my experience if you have any doubt a gun that you can have brought to a local gun store to have them inspect and ship out to you, it might cost a bit more and some sellers don't want to bother with this, but the ones that do you will know that what you are buying is probably what you are getting. I have had a few that I ask to have this done from a private seller and they were ok with this of course the guns we several thousand.
And if you explain why they are more likely to make the transaction. We all know the problems of getting a gun with problems and then the cost and time it takes to send back.

[John Mazza]

I just love it when these dealers get all p*ssed off at you when you ask a bunch of questions or ask to see more photos. They should KNOW what a collector wants to see (ie: photograph the areas that have serial numbers, or proof marks). Bottom line, they are my eyes & ears, since I can't see the gun myself ! I never want to give someone an "out" by not asking enough questions. If I don't, all they have to say is "Well, you didn't ASK me about that, so I didn't technically lie to you !" If you don't want someone to ask smart questions, go sell used cars !

[Bill Murphy]

I have had some very good experiences both on internet auctions like gunbroker and auctionarms and buying from individuals on trapshooters.com. I have also done well on the PGCA site. I don't want to get too specific or there will be jealousy among posters. Maybe I'm just lucky.

[Dean Romig]

I've been lucky too. At the least, I can say that I haven't lost any money buying or selling on the internet. I even sent an AHE 16 back to a very well-known southern gun seller.... no questions asked and no reason necessary. I think he just knew why I sent it back.

[will evans]

There are sellers who try to disclose all they can, sellers who try to show a little and force you to ask questions BUT who will answer truthfully, and then there are sellers who will just flat out lie. I was assured by freeman_arms that this was a really nice gun. The fact the barrels arrived a different length than advertised says it all regarding intent. I had also asked questions about the barrels because the only literature I could find said barrels should be 28". I probably could have asked more questions but in the end I still needed someone willing answer truthfully.

[ed good]

course there is another side to this...have noticed that more and more sellers on gunbroker do not have a stated return policy or do not accept returns, period...several sellers have indicated to me that they do not accept returns due to a bad experience with a crook buyer who swapped parts out of a gun and then returned it for refund...I have yet to have this experience. hope I never do.

[Mills Morrison]

Amazing, but goes to show you there are all types out there.