Wells Fargo Parker

[edgarspencer]

I inspected what I am convinced is a genuine Wells Fargo owned guard's gun, last weekend at the Baltimore show. The documentation the owner had included information from the Wells Fargo Museum, including a photograph of a pocket watch, engraved precisely the same as the plate on the buttstock of the gun.
My photos off the gun are not so great,as they were taken with my phone, but the owner told me he would email me good copies.

[Bill Murphy]

Missed that one. So, Edgar, did you add it to your collection? Are there pictures of the gun, and a PGCA letter? Tell me you got the serial number so Chuck can look it up.

[will evans]

I didn't see the gun, so I'm not going to say it was or it wasn't. What I will say is that if someone happened to have a picture of the watch, they would then be able to recreate the engravings on another surface. Right?

Here is a link to the story on the Wells Fargo website, with the picture of the watch that would be available for anyone to use if they wanted to engrave something else the same way.

http://blogs.wellsfargo.com/guidedbyhistory/2008/01/presentation-watches-for-brave/

I would also think that any gun being transported on a regular basis on a stagecoach or a train would get bounced around a lot. I mean a LOT. The gun was just a tool of the trade. Back in 1883, a Parker Bros shotgun would not have carried the same esteem as today, so the thought of Wells Fargo also throwing in their used shotgun as a reward doesn't seem appropriate.

Wouldn't the gift of the gun also be in the real records of the Wells Fargo Co? Maybe some liberal gun grabber intentionally left that out of the story on the Wells Fargo site. Who knows? Be sure to scroll down to the comments section of the above story. Several people claim to be related to Mr. Ross, including one who even says he OWNS the watch and Mr. Aaron's Colt 45. I guess one of his cousins got the shotgun.

[JAMES HALL]

Ser. no. 12482

[edgarspencer]

I didn't see the gun, so I'm not going to say it was or it wasn't.
But I did, And I'll stake 50 plus years of gun collecting, that it is right as rain.

[Dean Romig]

Here's the story I found... with no mention of the shotgun in the awards presented to Ross.

http://www.gbcnv.edu/hickson/AaronRoss.html

[will evans]

But I did, And I'll stake 50 plus years of gun collecting, that it is right as rain.

It certainly sounds like an interesting gun, Edgar. Let me also say I'd certainly like to see a letter confirm the gun. With so many fakes floating around, it would be nice to see a legitimate example. A true piece of history used in a real train robbery, no less! Finding a real WF gun would be one thing. This is finding one that was actually used in a confirmed train robbery by a known and honored hero of the Wells Fargo Co? That sounds almost too good to be true. I even imagine Julia's would be interested in such a gun.

Please pardon the honest fun I'm having at your expense, but you have to admit that it would be somewhat amusing for Wells Fargo to give the guy a watch and chain valued at $650, $1000 cash, PLUS the most valuable item of all - a likely beat up, 5 year old shotgun worth maybe $7-10 at that time.

The assumption is the guy used the gun to take the life of another human being. Presenting the weapon to him as a trophy would be a bit macabre, even by banking standards.

[Bill Murphy]

Maybe Chuck would look up that serial number.

[Harryreed]

Hope Edgar will be successful on this one! Love to see pictures if he gets an opportunity.:corn:

[Phillip Carr]

I would agree with Edgar. There is a strong possibility the shotgun could have been presented to Ross. After all it was the tool of his trade as a Shotgun Messenger. Other Shotgun Messengers were presented with shotguns for their acts of bravery. It might not be the actual shotgun he used, but a new gun that was presented to him. Possibly at a later date by other officials at Wells Fargo.

[edgarspencer]

The table holder, presumably the owner, had an entire binder full of provenance supporting the authenticity of the gun. The Wells Fargo markings on the gun were not done much later than the Parker Bros. top rib markings, and they are the ones hardest to fake. If this is a fake, I'd have to say, it's a 100 year old fake. I have seen a few of the $100K fake Colts coming out of Mexico, and as good as they are, after enough time examining one, you can point to something that isn't right. On two visits back to the table, and a half hr of looking, I came up empty. The seller made the observation that the hand that engraved the watch was most certainly also the hand that engraved the silver crest on the buttstock of the Parker, and I had to agree. Every detail of the engraving indicated the same person.
There was another Wells Fargo gun at the show; a Hopkins & Allen. It, too, seemd to real not to be.
It's worth mentioning that the table holders at this show are not the average one or two show a year type. When you see a few 1851s in presentation boxes, along side a few high dollar SAAs (my other specialty) you get the sense the seller isn't going to dabble in fakes too.

[greg conomos]

My next door neighbor lady works at Wells Fargo. I see her sometimes when I go through the drive-thru window. I asked her about this gun and she told me she doesn't know anything about it. So there you have it.

[todd allen]

My first reaction when I hear "Wells Fargo gun" is to expect to see a made-up Belgium klunker.
Without provenance, it's probably just a shamelessly modified gun.

[todd allen]

The table holder, presumably the owner, had an entire binder full of provenance supporting the authenticity of the gun. The Wells Fargo markings on the gun were not done much later than the Parker Bros. top rib markings, and they are the ones hardest to fake. If this is a fake, I'd have to say, it's a 100 year old fake. I have seen a few of the $100K fake Colts coming out of Mexico, and as good as they are, after enough time examining one, you can point to something that isn't right. On two visits back to the table, and a half hr of looking, I came up empty. The seller made the observation that the hand that engraved the watch was most certainly also the hand that engraved the silver crest on the buttstock of the Parker, and I had to agree. Every detail of the engraving indicated the same person.
There was another Wells Fargo gun at the show; a Hopkins & Allen. It, too, seemd to real not to be.
It's worth mentioning that the table holders at this show are not the average one or two show a year type. When you see a few 1851s in presentation boxes, along side a few high dollar SAAs (my other specialty) you get the sense the seller isn't going to dabble in fakes too.

I posted before I read your post. Your description of the seller makes it sound possible. I would love to hear more about a find like this. (with lots of pictures, of course)

[Bill Murphy]

I have only one comment. "Chuck"

[will evans]

I would agree with Edgar. There is a strong possibility the shotgun could have been presented to Ross. After all it was the tool of his trade as a Shotgun Messenger. Other Shotgun Messengers were presented with shotguns for their acts of bravery. It might not be the actual shotgun he used, but a new gun that was presented to him. Possibly at a later date by other officials at Welsh Fargo.


First, let me say that I am just having fun with this, not trying to discredit anyone or assail anyone's character. I was not trying to be as blatantly disrespectful to Edgar as my post could be interpreted. Written words do not imply tone. My way of making a point can be a little abrasive because I enjoy sarcasm, which does not often play well. Sorry if I have offended, Edgar. Certainly never my intent. I think it would nothing short of fantastic to find a real Wells Fargo shotgun, made by Parker, which was used in an actual robbery. Some would even say the fact the gun was used in the killing of a known criminal would add to the value.

I could also see that Wells Fargo might present Mr. Ross with a new firearm in recognition of bravery on the job, but in this instance the plaque on the gun says that this was the gun used in the robbery. Date of manufacture was 1878. Date of robbery was 1883.

This Ross character, "Dad Ross", was well known across the West, even earning an obituary in the New York Times when he passed in 1922. There is quite a bit about his career and specifically the date of Jan 23, 1883 to be found on the internet. Take that for what it's worth in regards to building provenance. http://api.ning.com/files/LyyBJlCmj1*ydRlJ2R3ps*1TJJTylUFg1CABR2dHFu*-JRpVQfTBbk7nk4xW84owqHeP-CFMWZ715GPQGq3oj1aswpfxqiIG/AaronHoldTheFortRossdies.pdf If that is his gun then it bears incredible provenance to the Old West.

All of that said, I am obviously not an expert on anything. Here are the two images together. I can see several significant differences, but I'll leave those to others to point out if they are interested.

Would written engravings bear the same characteristics as handwriting, as that is essentially what it amounts to - handwriting?

http://blog.wellsfargo.com/GuidedByHistory/images/Watch_small.jpg http://parkerguns.org/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=32287&stc=1&thumb=1&d=1395524491

Here is an example of a story where Well Fargo did give a shotgun to a messenger, so it DID happen, ( http://www.historynet.com/wells-fargo-guard-eugene-blair-service-with-a-shotgun.htm ) although the story makes note that the gun presented was "very handsome". The story doesn't say as much, but I would expect that to have been a graded gun. Wells Fargo didn't mess around when giving out gifts for valor, as evidenced by the watches reportedly worth $650 back in the 1880's.

I'm with everyone else on this. If legitimate, this would be one incredible find. One thing seems for certain - this gun, along with the folder of materials, would almost certainly make the final cut on an episode of 'Pawn Stars'.

[edgarspencer]

These are the only photos I took of the gun, apart from the one first shown. As I run across conspiracy theorists all the time, it's of no concern to me who believes it's real. I simply trust my years of experience, knowledge, and the facts that I was presented with. While I hope the gentleman who owned the gun follows through with his offer to email me his file of photos, I'm not sure I could say they will dispell the doubts of those who are inclined to doubt.
It struck me as odd that the barrels weren't shorter; an impression I must have gotten by seeing so many fakes on Gunbroker and other sites. I'd guess they were between 20 and 22".

[will evans]

Well, here's an interesting blog from a Wells Fargo historian.

http://blogs.wellsfargo.com/guidedbyhistory/2009/04/fakes/#comment-28967

I have read in several different places that there are never any records of direct shipments to Wells Fargo because the local agents in each office went out and purchased the guns themselves. This has often been interpreted to mean that a local "branch manager" would go out and buy 10 shotguns for use in that particular branch, but if you talk to Wells Fargo they now give a better answer - the agents bought their own guns. This is supported by the above Wells Fargo historian, who says, "Armed personnel supplied their own equipment." There are exceptions, such as a few Colts and Ithacas, so I guess anything is possible.

There are no doubt guns in existence which were used by a Wells Fargo guard, but according to Wells Fargo those guns were USUALLY the property of the agents, and therefore would not have been "gifted" by Wells Fargo with a special commemorative plaque for valor.

That would make sense, because it was understood even in those days that a person needed to have a gun they could shoot well. Even today, most police forces don't just hand out guns to their officers, but instead allow the officer to select his own weapon from a list of approved firearms. In Atlanta, the APD can carry any number of guns, and what is popular on the force changes as new weapons emerge. Currently, I see more S&W M&P's on their sides than anything else. Before that it was a Glock, but I still see a few cops walking around with revolvers. I do a lot of trading locally, and recently sold a handgun to a local cop who wanted it as his backup piece to carry while on duty.

[edgarspencer]

Here is an album of photos, sent to me by the owners. Doubters will always doubt, but others may appreciate seeing these. Look carefully at the barrel inscription.

https://picasaweb.google.com/107262578945292738829/OnlineEdits?authkey=Gv1sRgCPfFiJ3lw-rWkwE&feat=email

[Bill Murphy]

PGCA letter?

[George Lander]

I can't speak for Wells Fargo marked Parkers. I do have a Wells Fargo marked Colt pistol. It is a .38 caliber DA New Army revolver SN 268554. That SN is mentioned in a magazine article entitled: "Wells Fargo & Co. Express and Colt Firearms. The Double Action .38 Army Revolver Model 1892-1903" by O.C. Young. Mr Young was kind enough to send me a copy of his article. "WF&Co." is roll stamped on the buttstrap.

In his article Mr. Young quotes from Wells Fargo issued guidelines: " Wells Fargo instructions to Agents July 1, 1914 Pg 16 219. FIREARMS FOR DEFENSIVE PURPOSES WILL BE FURNISHED EMPLOYEES having money or valuables in charge, where superintendent deems necessary. Employees with firearms must always have them where they can be reached immediately! 220 FIREARMS TO BE KEPT READY FOR USE, employees must carry revolvers loaded in the holsters, outside of all clothing, and ready for instant use."

He goes on to state: "During the approximate first 40 years in business Wells Fargo used a variety of firearms. Weapons of various manufactures were used, encompassing shotguns, revolvers and rifles finding them in various calibers and styles.These variations observed have been: Smith & wesson Schofields, percussion Colts, cartridge Colts, S&W Americans, New Model #3s, Star Arms, Sharps, Remington, Greener, Winchesters and many others. This was created by the fact that Wells Fargo did not have centralized purchasing, and individual branches were responsible for supplying arms for security & defense."

My Colt was shipped to Wells Fargo in Chicago, Illinois on March 12, 1904 one of a lot of five.

Best Regards, George