letters

[scott kittredge]

ok, people in the know might be able to answer this. I filled out my research letter form set it on my desk and said "don't forget to bring it to work to make out my check and than get stamp to mail it on way home". On the way to work it hit me ,forgot the form! Why can't this be done like we do our membership, on line, This might not work for everyone but for most I think it would. Start the page with enter S/N here. if there are records than hit next and continue on to finish the request. If no records ,than say, can go on no records available. Would anyone else want it set up this if its possible? what do the people in the know say? :corn: scott

[Rich Anderson]

Doing it online would preclude the $40 payment. There would have to be some way for the payment to be processed befor the letter was completed.

[scott kittredge]

Doing it online would preclude the $40 payment. There would have to be some way for the payment to be processed befor the letter was completed.

Just like your online membership. pay at the time you order the letter. with pay-pal, ect. might take the same time to receive your letter but would be a nice way to order them. I would have a few more by now, one thing or another stops me from putting my form in the mail( like todays problem). Than a few years go by.:crying:

[Angel Cruz]

I second that emotion....

[Stephen Hodges]

Scott, I am not "in the know" by any means, but I do think your idea has merit. Other than the PGCA loosing 2.9% + $.30 per transaction, or possibly as low a rate as 2.2% for non-profits based on transaction volume, I would think that the ease of the money transaction and record keeping system provided by paypal would be well worth the money spent. Like you said, we can do it now for membership fees. Just my $.02.

[Chuck Bishop]

I'm not against it and it has been discussed by the BOD. I can't do this on my own, the BOD has to take the steps to make it happen.

[Bill Murphy]

Yes, I would like to receive a message that tells me that there is no information available, by email, before the payment is processed through my Paypal account. The A.H. Fox Collectors Association does it that way and they are way below PGCA on the food chain. Of course, I am the first to admit that the PGCA system meets my needs very well since I don't have a Paypal account. Thank you for your job well done, Chuck.

[scott kittredge]

Set it up in a way ,If there were no records available you wouldn't be able to go beyond that part of the S/N search. You would be done at that point, scott

[Pete Lester]

Going to the Post Office to get a postage paid envelope or stamps sounds like a small thing but it's an extra trip and where I live it's close to going to the DMV, lines and waits can be long and thus discouraging. I have been meaning to get around to order a letter on a DHE I have had for a few years now but as Scott said lack of envelope and stamp, common in this day and age because I seldom need either, has kept me from getting around to it. I guess I am not alone. If I had the ability to sit at the computer, fill out the form, authorize payment via PayPal I would have gotten the letter a long time ago as silly as that sounds.

[Larry Frey]

Pete,
This had been discussed in the past but our previous Researcher was comfortable with the way he was doing things so that is how it stayed. Each of our Staff members has a pretty free hand in how they do things as long as it's in the best interest of the PGCA and our members. Chuck recently brought up allowing membership request electronically using pay pal as we do membership and I believe you will see that happen in the not to distant future.

[Chris_Caile]

PayPal does not charge anything for a refund. Also returning a check includes postage and envelope have to cost .53 plus man hours. That is ~1.5% of the $40.00.

[John Gardner]

Love the idea and happy to add enough to the letter cost to cover any loss of revenue to the association due to payPal fees. It's a particular pain for me as I have to stand in line to get a bank draft in US funds as well.

I needed a draft for my membership last year and this year used payPal which was great. I picked up a gift membership for a friend and may get a couple more because it is so darned easy. Like Scott I'd have two (3?) more letters by now.

Of course having a paypal account is also the reason my eBay purchases have gone up..... :whistle:

If it makes Chuck's life easier too than that is another excellent reason. Look forward to it.

[charlie cleveland]

sounds like a great idea but i ve been told pay pal supports the people who are against guns..there is proof of this...charlie

[greg conomos]

I find it hard to believe anyone has a hard time mailing a letter. I agree post offices are to be avoided like the plague, but nowadays stamps can be bought even in places like grocery stores. Plus, I assume you are buying stamps for other needs anyway so a stamp for a PGCA letter is just you steal from your wife's booklet.

Paypal? It's troublesome that so many people are falling back on Paypal to conduct business. Their fees? Well, I can't say I really care about 2% but what do I care about is Paypal's unethical policies and practices. I'm amazed that when people sign up for Paypal they think nothing of giving out their bank account information. That's a big deal. Why? You are giving a third party (probably one that is staffed by 20 year olds in India) the authority to unilaterally access and withdraw funds from your account. I don't even allow my wife to do that.

What's more, if you ever bother to read the fine print, once you give that agreement, you also give away the ability to end that agreement. Only Paypal can discontinue it.
What that means is if you get into a dispute with Paypal and decide to "show them a thing or two" by calling your bank and having them disallowed, your bank will take Paypal's side and tell you to get lost.

Not for me, brother.

[jeffkinser]

My 2 cents:

Disclaimer: My background is Computer Database Design and ecommerce Design so I am a little biased.

I would support this idea as it would be pretty easy to implement with fairly inexpensive software. Even using a traditional CC payment instead of Paypal is really pretty easy.

Too me, the first step would be to have a "letter lookup" routine. We would put in our serial number and the system would respond with "letter available" or "letter not available". Then we just mail in the check and letter like normal. This would eliminate questions on the board about if info is available as well as having to respond to "letter not available" situations by the committee.

The next progression would be adding the payment online.

Jeff Kinser

[Jean Swanson]

For those that think it is easy to establish a "GUN " organization account with Pay Pal----think again . When the account was established for the membership side of the PGCA , there was a tremendous amount of manipulation and time spent to get it approved and set up . Question----Who is going to take the time and effort to do this ??

Another question----Who is going to manage the account ??

Another question-----Who is going to write the programs that will be combatable with our web site ??

I am not saying it is a BAD idea , I am saying that the BOD/Staff of the PGCA are volunteers and to add additional responsibilities onto those that already give of their time , is something to consider !!!

Additionally----the PayPal fee is great than that mentioned and is ,if I recall ,an additional fee for those outside the United States .

I kind of like Bill Murphy's concept ---I like it the way it is !!!

Allan

[scott kittredge]

you can keep it the way it is for people who want to mail. but for others like me it can be set up like the membership sign up. I haven't seen a problem with that from our volunteer's. I was just thinking out loud, This does not have to be done just thought it would be a good idea, I do know people don't like change and yes this would be change. I just think it would sell more letters. scott

[Bill Murphy]

Maybe we could talk to Craig Larter at the Southern and let him tell us how the AHFCA does it. I get a card copy in ten minutes from AHFCA, and realize that there is more information that must be processed from PGCA than just the scanning of a card. However, I'm just letting our readers know how it is done over there.

[scott kittredge]

For those that think it is easy to establish a "GUN " organization account with Pay Pal----think again . When the account was established for the membership side of the PGCA , there was a tremendous amount of manipulation and time spent to get it approved and set up . Question----Who is going to take the time and effort to do this ??

Another question----Who is going to manage the account ??

Another question-----Who is going to write the programs that will be combatable with our web site ??

I am not saying it is a BAD idea , I am saying that the BOD/Staff of the PGCA are volunteers and to add additional responsibilities onto those that already give of their time , is something to consider !!!

Additionally----the PayPal fee is great than that mentioned and is ,if I recall ,an additional fee for those outside the United States .

I kind of like Bill Murphy's concept ---I like it the way it is !!!

Allan
Allan, It does not have to be pay-pal- could be CC. I did post "pay-pal, ect" ,And if some one want to do the work ?

[scott kittredge]

I find it hard to believe anyone has a hard time mailing a letter. I agree post offices are to be avoided like the plague, but nowadays stamps can be bought even in places like grocery stores. Plus, I assume you are buying stamps for other needs anyway so a stamp for a PGCA letter is just you steal from your wife's booklet.

Paypal? It's troublesome that so many people are falling back on Paypal to conduct business. Their fees? Well, I can't say I really care about 2% but what do I care about is Paypal's unethical policies and practices. I'm amazed that when people sign up for Paypal they think nothing of giving out their bank account information. That's a big deal. Why? You are giving a third party (probably one that is staffed by 20 year olds in India) the authority to unilaterally access and withdraw funds from your account. I don't even allow my wife to do that.

What's more, if you ever bother to read the fine print, once you give that agreement, you also give away the ability to end that agreement. Only Paypal can discontinue it.
What that means is if you get into a dispute with Paypal and decide to "show them a thing or two" by calling your bank and having them disallowed, your bank will take Paypal's side and tell you to get lost.

Not for me, brother.

I do have a hard time; that's why I posted this, It does not have to be pay-pal, and you don't have to do it, you could still mail your letters. How about the checks they have to send back because of no records or checks made out for 2 letters and only info on 1 gun, now they have to cut a refund check, now is that's ez ?, scott

[Rich Anderson]

If the PAY-Pal account is already set up for the PGCA membership how hard would be to use it for the letters also?

[Mark Conrad]

Here is my 2 cents, btw, I did the letters for 9 years. The volume per month varies, anywhere from 20 to 80. The average when I gave it up was about 32 a month. It takes an average of at least 1/2 hour for each letter. The researcher has to pick the mail up, open the requests, send back any that are improper or there are no records, check the data base, do the research, letter and mail. In addition, keep a log, account for the money and report to the BOD at the end of the month. He also has to keep his supplies current as well as postage. Then you may have questions on the content of the letter and deal with errors (yes I made plenty of them).

So, we want to make it easier for you guys to request a letter. Bottom line, it is going to add to Chuck's workload. The amount of time will not change for the research and the letter but the record keeping is going to increase. How about getting your money back on requests where a letter can not be completed. I tried to complete the letters based on the oldest date. What do you do with the on line requests?

I can go on and on but I think you guys get my take on this. Please consider that any additional tasks can add considerable time to the research project.

[todd allen]

There could even be a digital option, for those who would like their letters emailed.

[scott kittredge]

Mark, as far as return money for no records it wouldn't happen, The way it would be set up is- Enter S/N here -Click -next - no records available so you can not continue.-with Sorry no records - If available then continue with request, that would make it ez for Chuck on that point, Than it could be a e-mail letter that than can be printed at home. If there was a mistake with it could be fixed and that re sent via e-mail. I think this could be done with all the people we have on the PGCA helping to work out the bugs. Like I said ,I just put it out there to see the what others thought, scott

[jesse wall]

As a new member this question suprises me! First we a shooting guns that are sometimes more than one hundred years old . Some guns require special shells ie 2/1/2 inch or low pressure or black powder . We have to plan ahead for shells or reloading supplies. We like the old guns the old ammo and all of the old stories and paintings, I really love the memories of my youth and the writings of those before ,I remember so many good things about the post office when my dad worked there years ago . They still sell stamps by the book ,sheet or hundreds , they also have envelopes! If you study your surroundings you may find a mail box within a 40 yrd range of your daily path , many of us have rural boxes with a flag to tell our letter carrier to pick up . My #2 pencil or my bic rarely crash , fail to boot up or load. Maybe I am old fashioned but going to my mail box each day to see if the letter on my 16 has arrived is a little like christmas for a 68 yr old . Thanks for a great job no matter how you choose to do it . Jesse

[Mark Conrad]

Scott, there are plenty of false positives in the data base. The most common examples are when you have a repair only but the original order is in a missing book. Another example are the serial numbers in order book 101, they are mostly credits where guns were returned. I would give out the limited info but return the check. I have used Pay Pal (my wife's account) and I understand you can only get a credit for returns. The other issue is when the online request is worked. I use to get phone calls demanding a letter and the request had not even made it to the PGCA mailbox. IMO, the online requests should go to the back of the line which is not going to go over well.

I have given you guys my thoughts on this. If the BOD and Chuck decide to try it, that's fine. I just felt someone needed to point out that we are increasing the work load on the researcher.

[Mark Conrad]

BTW, I use to send out email copies all the time if it was requested and I was given an email address. I would still send a hard copy on the bond paper and the PGCA seal.

[will evans]

I agree with Scott. I don't write checks, so I have to go find my checkbook to even write one, PLUS hit the post office for stamps, etc. If I were retired it wouldn't be an issue. In addition to speaking with the Fox guys, you might also speak with Jim Stubbendieck about how he handles the LC Smith letters. He has a system that allows him a really quick turnaround. They also need an online payment system.

Also, in regards to work load for each letter - an online order would reduce the work per letter - no picking up the mail, opening envelopes, or sending a letter to say you can't produce a research letter. You'd just copy and paste a standard email saying the information isn't present. Click of a button and their money is returned. Less trips to the bank, too. The merchant fees would be worth the reduction in hassle and increased letters. Online orders should go to the FRONT of the line.

[Robin Lewis]

Given Mr. Conrad's years of experience doing Parker letters, I think we should listen closely to him and if he thinks the electronic changes being purposed will add to Chucks already heavy work load, then it probably will. He is the voice of experience.

Maybe you would have better luck selling this idea to Chuck and the BOD if someone who believes that this will improve the PGCA would volunteer to take on the upfront work of both letter and electronic processing of the requests, doing the accounting, handle returns .... whatever else is required; and then Chuck would be free to do the research and send the completed letters?

I don't know if any of this is even feasible but to volunteer more work to be done by the guys that are already so very underpaid for what they do somehow doesn't seem right to me. :duck:

[Todd Kaltenbach]

I get a letter for every Parker I buy, and while I bank online as well as buying a lot online, printing and mailing a letter request isn't so bad. You can buy stamps online or at lots of grocery stores etc and I have a mailbox at my house. If it would add to to the researchers workload I don't think it would be a good idea. If it was available online I would use the service though.

[George Lang]

Jesse I agree with you wholeheartedly. What has happened to us?

[scott kittredge]

Thanks to all who answered the post, I think Chuck IS on board with it, but like I said just put it out there and I still will get letters either way they are done, thanks again , scott

[will evans]

Just as another counter point, there is a valid and proven reason why many of the companies everyone does business with would prefer you move to electronic invoicing, and the reason far exceeds the cost of postage. Examples include cell phone companies, AT&T, Cable, utilities, and even credit card companies. It's cheaper, time saving,and results in less work on the part of the employees of the company.

Think about the difference in time spent between the time it takes to open/read an email vs time spent dealing with an article of paper. It all adds up. Then there is also the added benefit of having all of your records in one place right there on the computer, versus dealing with hundreds of pieces of paper. Implementing such an automated system would probably translate to a couple hours of saved time per month for the researcher, at a minimum. Paper is a hassle. Don't fear technology.

[George Lang]

No we shouldn't fear technology, its a great thing, we just shouldn't blindly trust it or depend upon it completely.

[jesse wall]

No fear , just like old stuff better I have a nice A 5 japan made browning 3 inch with screw in chokes that was a gift from my best friend . It was for me to use if all we could find was steel shot shells . I have never shot it! I was the first office of my type to go with computer years ago , but we will be very very sorry when no one can add anymore. The schools in our are are already not teaching kids how to write cursive . No penmenship. A gentleman was know by his hand and the fact that he wore a tie while bird hunting!

[greg conomos]

One thing I have noticed, without fail, about companies who introduce new ways for their customers to do more work so they can do less work: the savings always seem to go into their pockets while the prices they charge always seem to increase. It's funny how I am the only one who notices that.

The companiesI want to see introducing new measures to lower costs are the ones with CEO's that are eating leftover Chinese food and driving Mazda 210's. The CEO's who are getting $7M bonuses? I'm not so concerned about saving them money.

[Pete Lester]

This is interesting read. In a nutshell the argument for doing it is to make it easier on those requesting a research letter by eliminating the need for stamps, envelopes and a trip to the mailbox or PO. The argument against doing it is to not increase the workload on the person doing the work of researching each request, not by additional process but by way of more requests for letters.

Electronic request using PayPal reduces the cost to the requester by the cost of a stamp and envelope, about .59 savings.

Electronic request using PayPal increases the cost to the PGCA by 2.9% plus .030 on each request or $1.46.

In order to provide $40 to the PGCA with the PayPal fees the price of letter would need to be increased to $41.50.

The net result, for the additional cost of .91 cents ($1.50 - .059) PGCA members dont need to have stamps, envelopes or make a trip to the mailbox or PO.

Returning money is less work via PayPal than a return mailing of check, it's also free vs. the cost of stamp and letter, again about .059.

I think it remains to be seen if this option would actually increase the number of requests for letters. Whether it does or not what is the future of requests for letters, up down or the same? If we are a growing organization they might be going up BUT as each letter is done there is now one less Parker needing a letter, there are a finite number of guns.

If the volume of letters goes up it sounds as though the only way to cope would be to increase the turn around time for a letter to be produced and mailed.

I appreciate the efforts of the folks doing the letters now and in the past, it's a labor of love and I believe they are volunteers, however the PGCA is making money on research letters. So the organization would benefit from more letter requests.

So given all that can we make it easier on PGCA members to make their request with electronic payment, possibly increase the cash flow to the PGCA and not overwhelm the person doing the work for us? That is the question.

[Chris Travinski]

For what it's worth, I would definitely order more letters if it were done online. It sounds stupid to say I don't have time to go to the post office, but I work 7:00-5:00 and the post office is open 8:00-4:00. Do I drive by it during the day? Sometimes, but I don't carry the form around in my pocket on the off chance I'll get to go. I have several forms floating around that I've filled out and not sent in, ultimately forgot about. There is no question it would make Chuck's job easier, but it would take some work to get it going. I don't like computers any more than the next guy, but think about how you would have found your dream Parker 20 years ago.