Parker 13 gauge?

[Jack Hamner]

I was just wondering if anyone knows if all the 13 gauge Parker uplifter action shotguns have been accounted for. I don't have a bore gauge, nor can I locate one, but according to my most precise measurements, the bore on my gun appears to be just a shade over 18 mm. This is measured at the end of the barrel--should it be further up into the barrel? The gun has 30 1/4" barrels and the serial number is N 0968. It was patented in Nov. of 1866. Any possibility this could be a 13? Thanks!

[Jack Hamner]

I guess I must have asked a really dumb question based on the number (or lack of) replies. Please bear with me--I have been an avid sportsman all my life, but this is the first Parker of any kind I have ever run across. I'm just trying to gather as much information as possible. If I ask dumb or rhetorical questions, please let me know! I don't mind being set straight. Thanks! Jack.

[charlie cleveland]

jack i can t answer your question but there are some who can they will pitch in shortly.by the way congratulations on that parker what ever gauge it is...charlie

[Dean Romig]

I find no listing for a 13 gauge gun produced by Parker Bros.

14 gauge, yes, but no 13 gauge listed that I could find.

[Jack Hamner]

jack i can t answer your question but there are some who can they will pitch in shortly.by the way congratulations on that parker what ever gauge it is...charlie

Thanks so much, Charlie--I fell in love with it when I saw it, although I doubt I'll ever shoot it!

[Jack Hamner]

I find no listing for a 13 gauge gun produced by Parker Bros.

14 gauge, yes, but no 13 gauge listed that I could find.

Thank you Dean,
I was just going by a post about a possible 13 gauge on this forum posted on 2/19/13 (p.5) about this same gun. Apparently somebody else was looking at this gun before I bought it.


"The Parker Story on page 257 list the Grade 0 Lifter-Action Decarbonized Steel guns as being in 10, 11, 12, and 13 gauges. Only 4 13 gauges made, 3 of them were 30". No 14s. Just going by that." Quote by the author of this post.

This doesn't sound right, either, because I also read in my earlier post (2/25/13) that over 100 14 gauges were made, except with higher serial numbers. (At least, I think that's what I read......I'm sooooooooo confused!!!

[Mills Morrison]

I seem to remember that a few 13 gauges were made, but none have been found lately. If what you have is a 13 gauge, you really have a rare piece.

[Jack Hamner]

I seem to remember that a few 13 gauges were made, but none have been found lately. If what you have is a 13 gauge, you really have a rare piece.

I'm sure hoping so, but not getting too excited because of possible flaws in my measurements. As soon as some of this $%#& snow gets off the ground, I'm going to try (again) to find someone who can accurately determine the gauge.
Thanks so much for your input! Jack.

[Dave Suponski]

Jack, You will need to get good measurements of the chambers.

[Robin Lewis]

Here is a video in which Larry shows how to measure a 11 gauge chamber so he can make custom brass shells to shoot. It would be a good guide to find out what gauge you have. He measures the chamber at about 3:40 into the video. I hope this help.

-mC4KDZnpr8:corn:

[Jack Hamner]

Jack, You will need to get good measurements of the chambers.

I agree, Dave, and I don't have the instruments to do so. Hopefully, someone around here will, but I live in a rural area and bore gauges are few and far between! Thanks!

[Jack Hamner]

[QUOTE=Robin Lewis;132674]Here is a video in which Larry shows how to measure a 11 gauge chamber so he can make custom brass shells to shoot. It would be a good guide to find out what gauge you have. He measures the chamber at about 3:40 into the video. I hope this help.

Very interesting video, Robin. Yes, this helps tremendously! I'm just wondering if a cast of the chamber is necessary rather than a direct measurement, although I suppose that would be rather difficult and prone to error. With the cast, you can take a direct measurement and be assured your results are accurate and repeatable.

[Dave Purnell]

Jack, I think your first step would be to try to load a new unfired 12ga shell in the chamber. If it fits easily, then problem solved. If it's very tight, then further accurate measuring is required.

[Dean Romig]

By it's age, the gun was made for use with brass shells and if you intend to use a 12 ga. shell to determine if it is a 12 ga. gun you should try a 12 ga. brass shell.

[Robin Lewis]

I'm not a shell person but I seem to remember that there were two 12 gauge brass shells. I don't remember the designations used? Maybe someone could "remind" me and inform others?

[Jack Hamner]

Jack, I think your first step would be to try to load a new unfired 12ga shell in the chamber. If it fits easily, then problem solved. If it's very tight, then further accurate measuring is required.

Thanks, Dave. I have tried both a 12 and a 16 ga. shell in the gun. A 12 gauge will not fit into the chamber (shell is too large), and a 16 gauge (to the best of my recollection--it's been a while!) falls right through the barrel.
Do you think it would be possible to find a dowel or piece of plastic pipe that fit snugly into the chamber (without getting stuck!) and then measure that instead of making a casting---I'm a little nervous about attempting the casting process!

[Jack Hamner]

Jack, I think your first step would be to try to load a new unfired 12ga shell in the chamber. If it fits easily, then problem solved. If it's very tight, then further accurate measuring is required.

Thanks, Dave. I have tried both a 12 and a 16 ga. shell in the gun. A 12 gauge will not fit into the chamber (shell is too large), and a 16 gauge (to the best of my recollection--it's been a while!) falls right through the barrel.
Do you think it would be possible to find a dowel or piece of plastic pipe that fit snugly into the chamber (without getting stuck!) and then measure that instead of making a casting---I'm a little nervous about attempting the casting process!

P.S.By very tight, you mean that a 12 ga. will actually fit into the chamber, except very tightly? One will not even start into the chamber on this gun. Maybe it is a 14 ga. after all! BTW, a penny is almost the same size as the chamber at the end of the barrel..only the penny is a few hundredths too big. If placed in the chamber, about half of the penny will rest inside and the other half will protrude. The Redbook lists the diameter of a penny as 19 mm.

[Dean Romig]

A brand new 2013 penny measures exactly .751" in four different locations across its diameter.

[Robin Lewis]

Cast with candle wax. It will be soft so working with it may be difficult to get an accurate measurement?

[Jack Hamner]

By it's age, the gun was made for use with brass shells and if you intend to use a 12 ga. shell to determine if it is a 12 ga. gun you should try a 12 ga. brass shell.

Thanks Dean--excellent point! I just dug out an old Winchester brass 12 gauge and tried it. It's close, but it will NOT go into the chamber at all.

[Jack Hamner]

Cast with candle wax. It will be soft so working with it may be difficult to get an accurate measurement?

I thought of that too, Robin, but I was worried about chamber damage and the wax getting stuck. I don't think chamber damage would be an issue, though--I know of several people who "wax" the outside of their firearms rather than oil them.

[Jack Hamner]

A brand new 2013 penny measures exactly .751" in four different locations across its diameter.

Thank you (again!) Dean. If my figures are right, a 12 gauge measures .729", a 13 ga.--.700, and a 14 ga.--.693, so a few hundredths less than .751" could be a 13 OR 14 gauge, since the 12 ga. brass was too large (.729) What diameter is a 12b that I read about in one of the posts? Is this a possibility for this gun?

[Dean Romig]

Jack, you're confusing 'nominal bore diameters' with chamber diameters. The chamber diameter (slightly tapered) will (almost) always be larger than the bore diameter. The diameters you show are nominal bore diameters.

[Dave Purnell]

Ok, first, on the faceof it, I was wrong about trying a modern 12ga shell in an early Parker gun, Dean is correct, but also, so is Robin. At the time of this early gun there was brass shells marked A & B. According to The Parker Story, at about 1870 the A & B shells appeared on the market. The "A" shell was for use in chambers sized for paper shells of the time. Paper had thicker walls so also a larger outside diameter. Then, shells for earlier guns that were chambered originally for brass shells, were marked with a "B". TPS also states in an undated chart that 12ga had tapered chambers from .811 to .797. FWIW, I believe this size corresponds to size of modern 12ga shells. This size would also be the "B" size shell, as the "12A" was a larger diameter matching the overall paper shell of the time. Confused yet? So, I still think you can try a modern unfired 12ga shell to help make a determination of what you have. If the gun is a 13ga, then the chamber will be smaller, and the 12ga shell won't fit.

[Jack Hamner]

Jack, you're confusing 'nominal bore diameters' with chamber diameters. The chamber diameter (slightly tapered) will always be larger than the bore diameter. The diameters you show are nominal bore diameters.

Yeah...I'm so confused at this point I think I will just wait until I can get a reliable gunsmith to take measurements for me and come up with a definitive answer. I'm just such an impatient person that I think I can get answers to everything "right now". I guess I'm going to have to learn to be a little more patient!

[Dave Purnell]

You're doing good, Jack. Sorry I type so slow, a lot of posts while I was hunting and pecking. Dean is simply stating that the muzzle size has nothing to do with gauge. It's all in the chambered shell.

[Jack Hamner]

Ok, first, on the faceof it, I was wrong about trying a modern 12ga shell in an early Parker gun, Dean is correct, but also, so is Robin. At the time of this early gun there was brass shells marked A & B. According to The Parker Story, at about 1870 the A & B shells appeared on the market. The "A" shell was for use in chambers sized for paper shells of the time. Paper had thicker walls so also a larger outside diameter. Then, shells for earlier guns that were chambered originally for brass shells, were marked with a "B". TPS also states in an undated chart that 12ga had tapered chambers from .811 to .797. FWIW, I believe this size corresponds to size of modern 12ga shells. This size would also be the "B" size shell, as the "12A" was a larger diameter matching the overall paper shell of the time. Confused yet? So, I still think you can try a modern unfired 12ga shell to help make a determination of what you have. If the gun is a 13ga, then the chamber will be smaller, and the 12ga shell won't fit.


Thanks so much for sticking with me, Dave! As I was telling Dean, as impatient as I am, I think I'm just going to have to wait and find a gunsmith who can make a gauge determination for me, even if it means waiting a while!

[Jack Hamner]

One final try! I didn't make a mold, but I sanded down a plastic tube and then smoothed the surface. It now goes easily into the chamber where the shell fits and then slides very snugly through the entire length of the barrel. So snugly in fact, it takes a moderate amount of pressure on a dowel rod to push the tube through the barrel, although it loosens up at the very end (choke?). If I were to accurately measure the diameter of this snugly fitting tube,(I think the tube is pretty uniform in diameter) would this be pretty close to a true bore diameter? I don't have a caliper (that I can find!), but rough measurements with a ruler read +/- 18 cm. If anyone thinks this would be an accurate enough method, I will try and locate a good caliper and get a more accurate reading. Thanks for your patience and ALL your help!!!

[Dave Purnell]

First, bore is measured in inches. 18 millimeters is .709 inch. I don't know what that means, except it's probably smaller than a 12ga gun. Accurate bore and chamber dimensions will have to be taken with a gage that can measure in thousanths of an inch.

[edgarspencer]

According to Circle Fly, 13ga. is .710" Since I can't find any published dimensions for Chambers, I'd be more inclined to rely on the info that is published, i.e., Bore dimensions.
I applaud your enthusiasm, and know well what you mean by being impatient, but using dowels, sanded PVC pipes, etc, to attempt to find something that is measured in .001" is akin to using binoculars, when a microscope is called for.

Why don't you let us know where you live, and perhaps you might find a PGCA member close by who owns a Chubb, or similar bore gauge. I have one, and live in N.Central CT.

[Jack Hamner]

First, bore is measured in inches. 18 millimeters is .709 inch. I don't know what that means, except it's probably smaller than a 12ga gun. Accurate bore and chamber dimensions will have to be taken with a gage that can measure in thousanths of an inch.

Thanks again, Dave. I was just using centimeters because they're easier to read on a ruler than trying to figure out hundredths or thousandths of an inch on the ruler. Obviously, the ruler is not an accurate enough measurement. I was just using what I had for a rough guesstimate until I can find something else. Thanks for all your help! Jack.

[Gary Carmichael Sr]

Jack, Sounds like you have what is known as a 12b brass shell gun, a lot of early guns were chambered for them, and yes they made 13 gauge guns, 4 of them to be exact, as per the remaining records but several thousand numbers away from your gun, I have been looking for one for a loooong time, that will letter as such, I am a patient man, and eventually find one, Gary

[Jack Hamner]

First, bore is measured in inches. 18 millimeters is .709 inch. I don't know what that means, except it's probably smaller than a 12ga gun. Accurate bore and chamber dimensions will have to be taken with a gage that can measure in thousanths of an inch.

Thanks, Dave--that's what it's going to take!

[Jack Hamner]

Jack, Sounds like you have what is known as a 12b brass shell gun, a lot of early guns were chambered for them, and yes they made 13 gauge guns, 4 of them to be exact, as per the remaining records but several thousand numbers away from your gun, I have been looking for one for a loooong time, that will letter as such, I am a patient man, and eventually find one, Gary

Thanks, Gary. Does that mean that a regular 12 gauge Winchester brass shell, would not go into the gun, as I mentioned in an earlier post?
I know it sounds goofy, but I sanded down a plastic piece until it passed easily into the shell chamber, but fit very snugly beyond that point. I then carefully pushed it through the barrel and extracted it . I took it to the local gun shop, and he got a measurement of .724" on an electronic caliper. What that means, I don't know because of many possible mistakes on my end, but if the figure is anywhere near accurate, it sounds more like a 12b than a 13. I'm just going to have to find someone with a bore gauge if that's the proper term.
Thanks so much for your input! Jack.

[Jack Hamner]

According to Circle Fly, 13ga. is .710" Since I can't find any published dimensions for Chambers, I'd be more inclined to rely on the info that is published, i.e., Bore dimensions.
I applaud your enthusiasm, and know well what you mean by being impatient, but using dowels, sanded PVC pipes, etc, to attempt to find something that is measured in .001" is akin to using binoculars, when a microscope is called for.

Why don't you let us know where you live, and perhaps you might find a PGCA member close by who owns a Chubb, or similar bore gauge. I have one, and live in N.Central CT.

Thanks, Edgar. I know I'm beating a dead horse, but I'm cooped up here due to snow and cold and can't get out much. I guess the old cabin fever has struck
I live in Palmyra, Virginia, about 20 miles southeast of Charlottesville. There's a guy at Woodbrook Sports in Charlottesville who has a bore gauge, but everytime I stop by there, he's gone, and no one else knows where the gauge is!


P.S.--the pvc pipe test measured .724" on an electronic caliper, but probably not very accurate on my end of the measurement

[edgarspencer]

P.S.--the pvc pipe test measured .724" on an electronic caliper, but probably not very accurate on my end of the measurement
Accounting for friction, and that you were able to push it through, it's sounding more like a 12 than a 13.
There are a lot of PGCA members in your neck of the woods.

[Jack Hamner]

Accounting for friction, and that you were able to push it through, it's sounding more like a 12 than a 13.
There are a lot of PGCA members in your neck of the woods.

Right--I think a "regular" 12 measures .729" or so.

P.S. If there are any PGCA members near me with a bore gauge, I will be happy to come to you--just reply to this thread or send me a PM and THANKS!!!


PPS-- I'm so confident in my methodology and measuring ability that once a bore gauge is employed, I'm willing to bet that my calculations are no more than an inch off! Just kidding!!!

[Jack Hamner]

Wow--you guys are awesome!!! I just noticed that the total number of replies is up to 36 (just a few of them mine) replies in just about two days! I am amazed at how all of you have stepped up to the plate to help a novice who at times must sound like a lunatic! Anyway, a BIG thanks to each and every one of you, and if you think of something else, keep 'em coming! Jack.

[paul stafford jr]

brownells sells bore gauges, buying one would solve this problem and you will be able to check other guns before you buy them.

[Jack Hamner]

brownells sells bore gauges, buying one would solve this problem and you will be able to check other guns before you buy them.

Thanks, Paul. I definitely am considering that, but I don't normally buy antique guns. I just happened to see this one in a pawn shop and it appealed to me. I doubt I will ever be buying another unknown gauge, but then again, who knows!
I appreciate your help!

[Gary Carmichael Sr]

Jack, the 12-b brass shell is smaller than a 12-a brass shell, if I were at home I would send you one to try, 12-b shells are pretty hard to find, are you coming to the southern if so I will bring a 12-b shell for you to try, Gary

[Jack Hamner]

Jack, the 12-b brass shell is smaller than a 12-a brass shell, if I were at home I would send you one to try, 12-b shells are pretty hard to find, are you coming to the southern if so I will bring a 12-b shell for you to try, Gary

Hi Gary,
I'm assuming the Southern is some sort of gun show or similar event. I don't usually go to these, but could possibly make it if it isn't too far from me--I don't travel too well any more!
Where and when will this event be held?
Whether I'm able to come or not, I wanted to thank you SO MUCH for your gracious offer!

[Gary Carmichael Sr]

Jack, I live in Floyd V.A. The venue is in Sanford N.C. if you are in V.A. when I get back maybe we could get together and try the shell in your gun, Gary

[Jack Hamner]

[QUOTE=Gary Carmichael Sr;132874]Jack, I live in Floyd V.A. The venue is in Sanford N.C. if you are in V.A. when I get back maybe we could get together and try the shell in your gun, Gary[/QUOTE


That's an awful nice gesture, but a long trip even if we met halfway!

[Jack Hamner]

Thanks to a very gracious and savvy P.G.C.A member with the proper equipment, I now have some accurate figures which to work!
According to this fine gentleman, the chamber runs .770 out to .761. Then the barrels are as follows:
RIGHT--.730 to .731 at the end.
LEFT--.731 out to .732. at the end
Choke (?)- cyl & cyl
Chamber--2.425 (2.5)

So what does all this mean? Darned if I know. What I DO know is that it sounds too big to be 14 or 13 gauge--shucks!!! Sounds like many of you mentioned--some version of a 12 ga. --most likely a 12b???
Anyway , a BIG THANKS AGAIN TO ALL WHO HELPED ME!!!

P.S.--Even though it was probably luck, I'm pretty proud of my" homemade barrel measuring device" With it we came up with a figure of .724 compared to actual values of .730-.732 for a difference of only six to eight thousandths. Not too shabby for a magic marker tube, a little fine sandpaper, and a ramrod! (plus someone else's caliper)

[Jack Hamner]

[QUOTE=Gary Carmichael Sr;132874]Jack, I live in Floyd V.A. The venue is in Sanford N.C. if you are in V.A. when I get back maybe we could get together and try the shell in your gun, Gary[/QUOTE

Gary,
That's an awful nice gesture, but a long trip even if we met halfway!

Please see my last post--I think we've got it close to nailed down. It would be very helpful, however, if you could take measurements of your shell and send them to me. Thanks!

[Robin Lewis]

Could someone that owns both a brass 12 gauge "A" and a "B" shell measure them and post their respective sizes please? I'm interested in learning more about them!

[Gary Carmichael Sr]

Guys I could help you but am not at home for another month yet, Gary

[Jack Hamner]

Guys I could help you but am not at home for another month yet, Gary

Not a problem, Gary--Thanks! Jack.

[Dave Purnell]

Thanks to a very gracious and savvy P.G.C.A member with the proper equipment, I now have some accurate figures which to work!
According to this fine gentleman, the chamber runs .770 out to .761. Then the barrels are as follows:
RIGHT--.730 to .731 at the end.
LEFT--.731 out to .732. at the end
Choke (?)- cyl & cyl
Chamber--2.425 (2.5)

So what does all this mean? Darned if I know. What I DO know is that it sounds too big to be 14 or 13 gauge--shucks!!! Sounds like many of you mentioned--some version of a 12 ga. --most likely a 12b???
Anyway , a BIG THANKS AGAIN TO ALL WHO HELPED ME!!!

P.S.--Even though it was probably luck, I'm pretty proud of my" homemade barrel measuring device" With it we came up with a figure of .724 compared to actual values of .730-.732 for a difference of only six to eight thousandths. Not too shabby for a magic marker tube, a little fine sandpaper, and a ramrod! (plus someone else's caliper)

"The Parker Story" states in Vol II, page 524, first column, that a 12b brass shell measures 0.765" at it's base. This is exactly five thousanths less than the chamber opening of 0.770. The small difference is for fit, to insert and remove the shell. The bore sizes are 12ga.

[Jack Hamner]

"The Parker Story" states in Vol II, page 524, first column, that a 12b brass shell measures 0.765" at it's base. This is exactly five thousanths less than the chamber opening of 0.770. The small difference is for fit, to insert and remove the shell. The bore sizes are 12ga.

Thanks, Dave for this valuable information. So the figures Mr. J. arrived at are within the tolerances for a 12b identification on the gun?

(.765-.770 Parker Story)
(.770-.761 Measured readings)

And one final rookie question--Would the 30 1/4" barrels have been something pretty commonly found on the 12b gun?

[Dave Purnell]

Thanks, Dave for this valuable information. So the figures Mr. J. arrived at are within the tolerances for a 12b identification on the gun?

(.765-.770 Parker Story)
(.770-.761 Measured readings)

I would think 12b. There is no other chamber size close.

[Jack Hamner]

I would think 12b. There is no other chamber size close.

Thanks, Dave.......Case closed, thanks to you and many others. What a great bunch of people on this forum!

[Richard B. Hoover]

Jack,

You need to get measurements of the internal diameter of bores of the barrels away from the muzzle and the chambers. If the gun is a 13 gauge, then the bore diameter will be between 0.702" and 0.719". The muzzle diameter is not suitable because even very early Parker's had constricted choke bores. The chambers are not suitable because the gauge size of a shotgun is defined based on bore diameter. As T. D. S. and Capt. J. A. Purdey in their wonderful 1936 book "The Shotgun" explain on pg. 141---"The gauge division 12/1 includes any bore of diameter .730 to .740 inclusive; and the gauge division 12 any bore of diameter from .729 to .720. If the diameter is .740 the gun is not a 12-bore but it's gauge size is 11, and the gun is proved as an 11 bore."

They go on to say: ,"The gauge size of barrel is always taken at a point 9" from the breech end."

If I can be of any help, please let me know. If you have captured a 13 gauge, it would be a great find indeed.

Richard B. Hoover

[Richard B. Hoover]

Jack,

If you have not yet been able to measure the bores, give me a call at 256-337-4082 and I will try to help. I have all equipment to measure the bores and chambers of any Parker barrel to a precision of 0.0001".

Richard

[Jack Hamner]

Jack,

If you have not yet been able to measure the bores, give me a call at 256-337-4082 and I will try to help. I have all equipment to measure the bores and chambers of any Parker barrel to a precision of 0.0001".

Richard

Richard,
I just got around to looking at the forum again and saw your two posts. I would like to thank you so much for this information. I'm not quite sure what all this means in terms of my gun. My friend got bore measurements of .730/.731 in the right barrel and .731/.732 in the left. These were taken from the end of the chambers(.770-.761) to the end of the barrels. So would this indicate a gauge other than 12? I'm confused again! Sounds like it's within the range of some sort of 12 gauge, though, if I'm reading the figures correctly.

[Richard B. Hoover]

Jack,

Bore dimensions of 0.730" to 0.732" are nearly spot on for the precise bore size (0.729") of the "perfect" 12 gauge. This is because 12 lead balls of precisely 0.729" diameter weighs exactly 1 pound.

The chamber dimensions of your gun are correct for the Parker 12B brass shot shell (0.765-0.770") but too small for the Parker 11B brass shell (0.790"-0 .800") or the Parker paper 12 or the Parker or UMC 12A brass shell (0.805"-0.810") which is the same as a modern 12 gauge shell. (Modern 12 gauge shells are too big to fit in your chambers. If you want to shoot your gun you will need to get some Parker or UMC 12B shells and hand load them.)

Hence your gun is a (very slightly over bored or very lightly pitted) 12 gauge Parker that was chambered for Parker 12B brass shells.

I am very much interested in hearing more about it. Could you please let me know the serial number, grade, what it says on the barrel rib? If you send me your e-mail address I will be happy to send you a copy of my Double Gun Journal article from the Winter 2008 Volume that contains all of these dimensions for the Parker chambers, bores, and shot shells.

Yours,

Richard B. Hoover

[Jack Hamner]

Jack,

Bore dimensions of 0.730" to 0.732" are nearly spot on for the precise bore size (0.729") of the "perfect" 12 gauge. This is because 12 lead balls of precisely 0.729" diameter weighs exactly 1 pound.

The chamber dimensions of your gun are correct for the Parker 12B brass shot shell (0.765-0.770") but too small for the Parker 11B brass shell (0.790"-0 .800") or the Parker paper 12 or the Parker or UMC 12A brass shell (0.805"-0.810") which is the same as a modern 12 gauge shell. (Modern 12 gauge shells are too big to fit in your chambers. If you want to shoot your gun you will need to get some Parker or UMC 12B shells and hand load them.)

Hence your gun is a (very slightly over bored or very lightly pitted) 12 gauge Parker that was chambered for Parker 12B brass shells.

I am very much interested in hearing more about it. Could you please let me know the serial number, grade, what it says on the barrel rib? If you send me your e-mail address I will be happy to send you a copy of my Double Gun Journal article from the Winter 2008 Volume that contains all of these dimensions for the Parker chambers, bores, and shot shells.

Yours,

Richard B. Hoover

Thank you so much for this information, Richard! I can't figure out how to reload pictures from my album, but you can view them on my post of 2/22/13 under the title "14 gauge?". Thanks again very much! Jack.

[Bruce Day]

Parker chamber measurements are in TPS, p. 519, in the chapter " Barrels, Bores, Chambers and Frames". Answers to most Parker questions are found in TPS.

[Richard B. Hoover]

Bruce,

Thanks, those are good points. However, The chamber dimensions on page 519 of The Parker Story are good for later model Parkers in 8, 10, 12, etc. gauges only. This table does not cover all the chamber sizes found in the early under lifter guns. These were typically chambered for 10A or 10B, 11 paper or 11B brass, or 12 paper, 12A or 12B or extremely rarely for the 14A brass shells. Many of the early Parker 11-gauge guns were chambered for Parker or UMC brass 12A shells, which have the same dimensions as the modern 12 ga shell as shown on TPS pgs. 544-550. Some 11's were even chambered for 10A shells. Some of the underlifter 12-gauge guns were chambered for 12B brass shells, which can lead to confusion and the conclusion that these guns are 13 or 14 gauge (Just as was reported by Larry Baer for the Parker Prototype no. 06 in the Meriden Historical Society,which has perfect 12-bore barrels and was chambered for 2"long brass shells of diameter that can accept a modern 14 gauge shell.

Richard

[Richard B. Hoover]

Jack,

Did you get measurements at several points along each barrel of your gun? If so could you please post these values? I am very much interested in these results as I am trying to get better understanding of the bores and chambers of the very early (pre-1975) under lifter hammer guns.

Thanks,

Richard

[Jack Hamner]

Bruce,

Thanks, those are good points. However, The chamber dimensions on page 519 of The Parker Story are good for later model Parkers in 8, 10, 12, etc. gauges only. This table does not cover all the chamber sizes found in the early under lifter guns. These were typically chambered for 10A or 10B, 11 paper or 11B brass, or 12 paper, 12A or 12B or extremely rarely for the 14A brass shells. Many of the early Parker 11-gauge guns were chambered for Parker or UMC brass 12A shells, which have the same dimensions as the modern 12 ga shell as shown on TPS pgs. 544-550. Some 11's were even chambered for 10A shells. Some of the underlifter 12-gauge guns were chambered for 12B brass shells, which can lead to confusion and the conclusion that these guns are 13 or 14 gauge (Just as was reported by Larry Baer for the Parker Prototype no. 06 in the Meriden Historical Society,which has perfect 12-bore barrels and was chambered for 2"long brass shells of diameter that can accept a modern 14 gauge shell.

Richard

So am I right in thinking that what you're saying is mine is still probably a 12b?

[Jack Hamner]

Bruce,

Thanks, those are good points. However, The chamber dimensions on page 519 of The Parker Story are good for later model Parkers in 8, 10, 12, etc. gauges only. This table does not cover all the chamber sizes found in the early under lifter guns. These were typically chambered for 10A or 10B, 11 paper or 11B brass, or 12 paper, 12A or 12B or extremely rarely for the 14A brass shells. Many of the early Parker 11-gauge guns were chambered for Parker or UMC brass 12A shells, which have the same dimensions as the modern 12 ga shell as shown on TPS pgs. 544-550. Some 11's were even chambered for 10A shells. Some of the underlifter 12-gauge guns were chambered for 12B brass shells, which can lead to confusion and the conclusion that these guns are 13 or 14 gauge (Just as was reported by Larry Baer for the Parker Prototype no. 06 in the Meriden Historical Society,which has perfect 12-bore barrels and was chambered for 2"long brass shells of diameter that can accept a modern 14 gauge shell.

Richard

So am I right in thinking that what you're saying is mine is still probably a 12b? Thanks, Jack.

[Richard B. Hoover]

So am I right in thinking that what you're saying is mine is still probably a 12b? Thanks, Jack.

Jack,

Your gun is a cylinder bore (no choke) 12-gauge.

If you want to shoot it you need to get some 12B brass shells and hand load them. The reason it is particularly interesting is that it is widely believed that the early 12 gauge Parker shotguns were significantly over bored. However the Parker order books show that almost all of the 11-gauge Parker's were chambered for the 12A brass shells. Bill Furnish and I measured a number of early under lifter Parker 12-gauge guns that were chambered for the smaller 12B (like your gun) or 11B (like John Hanson' no. 2505 Parker) brass shells.

These mysteries are finally beginning to make a lot of sense.

Thanks for your help.

Richard

[Dean Romig]

Here's John Hansen's Parker No. 2505 with Parker Bros 12B shells in the original case.



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[Richard B. Hoover]

Here's John Hansen's Parker No. 2505 with Parker Bros 12B shells in the original case.



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Dean,

Thanks for posting the images of John Hansen's Parker b2505. I measured the bores of that gun and they are perfect 0.729" 12-gauge size bores. In the images you posted you can not read the Parker Headstamp, but if you have higher resolution photos you will see that these shells are all bearing the extremely rare Parker 11B head stamp and the chambers are of 11B dimension. This is another early example that proves that Parker made early under lifter guns that we're not over bored, but conformed precisely to the well established definitions of perfect bore sizes for 8-ga; 10-ga; 11-ga and 12--ga guns. Furthermore, the powder and shot charge loads they used for proof testing were consistent with the Birmingham Proof House requirements as set forth in the British proof act.

If you have higher resolution images of the 11B shells perhaps you could also post them.

Dean, Thanks for those great images of a truly magnificent Early Parker Underlifter.

Yours,

Richard B. Hoover

[Dean Romig]

Richard, I checked my photo file on this gun and I don't have any images that clearly show the headstamps. I presumed they were 12B shells because all I could make out was the Parker Bros., the West Meriden, Ct., and the B but the gauge stamp is not legible at all in any of my photos. I photographed the gun in 2009 and I should have made sure the pictures I took were sharp. If I ever get to see the gun again I'll do a better job of it.

It's really good to have you back here on the forum after your absence of a few years. Your expertise and knowledge of these old Parkers is a tremendous resource for the entire "Parker community". Thank you!

Best, Dean

[Dean Romig]

Frank Cronin has the twin to John Hansen's in terms of grade, condition and features, but I don't recall the gauge of Frank's wonderful gun... perhaps Frank will come on and tell us about his gun.

[Richard B. Hoover]

Dean,

Thanks for the kind words. We visited with John during the trip to Ilion and Meriden that Charlie, Ron, Sam! Ed and I took in 1996. I am pretty sure I included details about B2505 in an article I wrote for Parker Pages in 1996 or 1997, but I can't find my copies of those old issues. I think Ron Kirby wrote an article about the trip as well. Do you still have a complete set of the Parker Pages from this period? Is there a Table of Contents listing of the articles and are copies still available?

Richard

[Richard B. Hoover]

Dean,

I found the Parker Pages index and see that Charlie Herzog also wrote an article about our ilion and Meriden trip and that Ron Kirby May have solved the F.9.R. Mystery. Are these old issues available in hard copy or .pdf form?

Richard

[Dean Romig]

Dean,

Thanks for the kind words. We visited with John during the trip to Ilion and Meriden that Charlie, Ron, Sam! Ed and I took in 1996. I am pretty sure I included details about B2505 in an article I wrote for Parker Pages in 1996 or 1997, but I can't find my copies of those old issues. I think Ron Kirby wrote an article about the trip as well. Do you still have a complete set of the Parker Pages from this period? Is there a Table of Contents listing of the articles and are copies still available?

Richard


I have all of the original copies of Parker Pages and I'll look for your article. When I find it I can scan it and send it to you or you can contact Jim Hall and have him send you the issue.

There is a complete updated index of all issues of Parker Pages and will be made available as soon as Robin Lewis and I are done editing the file. I'm the 'foot dragger' on this project but I'll get my edits to Robin soon.

[Richard B. Hoover]

Dean,

That would be great. I have some of the issues but can't find others. I think my articles about the Meriden trip and the T-latch Parkers were published in late 1996 or early 1997

[Robin Lewis]

It is in issue 3 in 1996. "A Quest for the elusive 11 gauge Parker"

[Jack Hamner]

Jack,

Your gun is a cylinder bore (no choke) 12-gauge.

If you want to shoot it you need to get some 12B brass shells and hand load them. The reason it is particularly interesting is that it is widely believed that the early 12 gauge Parker shotguns were significantly over bored. However the Parker order books show that almost all of the 11-gauge Parker's were chambered for the 12A brass shells. Bill Furnish and I measured a number of early under lifter Parker 12-gauge guns that were chambered for the smaller 12B (like your gun) or 11B (like John Hanson' no. 2505 Parker) brass shells.

These mysteries are finally beginning to make a lot of sense.

Thanks for your help.

Richard

NO!---Thanks for YOUR help!!! If it weren't for you and so many other dedicated authorities on these Parkers, I would never have gotten to the bottom of this story! When I bought the gun, it was advertised as a 14 gauge, and had it not been for you and the many, many others who helped me, I would have just assumed I had a 14 gauge! Thanks again! Jack.

[Richard B. Hoover]

Jack,

I am sorry that your gun was not a 14-gauge as advertised. The seller may have honestly thought it was a 14 as well. In that case he may be willing to make an adjustment for you. I do not know where the misconception about Parker gauges came from. Many measurements on early Parkers clearly have shown that from the very beginning the bores and chambers of the Parker shotguns were finished with extreme precision. Your gun provides another important data point, showing that Parker was not over boring the early barrels out of the gauge size range as was suggested in early writings.

They did recommend using larger size wads, to achieve a better seal in order to produce the hardest shooting gun they could, but that did not alter the relationship between bore diameter, Gauge number and the proof loads they used to test the barrels before the gun was finished.

Thanks for your information about this early Parker.

Yours,


Richard B. Hoover

[Jack Hamner]

Jack,

I am sorry that your gun was not a 14-gauge as advertised. The seller may have honestly thought it was a 14 as well. In that case he may be willing to make an adjustment for you. I do not know where the misconception about Parker gauges came from. Many measurements on early Parkers clearly have shown that from the very beginning the bores and chambers of the Parker shotguns were finished with extreme precision. Your gun provides another important data point, showing that Parker was not over boring the early barrels out of the gauge size range as was suggested in early writings.

They did recommend using larger size wads, to achieve a better seal in order to produce the hardest shooting gun they could, but that did not alter the relationship between bore diameter, Gauge number and the proof loads they used to test the barrels before the gun was finishe
Thanks for your information about this early Parker.

Yours,


Richard B. Hoover




Thanks, Richard, but an adjustment is not necessary. I do believe the seller thought it was a 14 gauge, too. In fact, this very same gun was sold on a firearms website several years ago, and it was advertised as a 14 gauge at that time. Regardless of the gauge, I'm happy with the gun.

[Jack Hamner]

Jack,

Did you get measurements at several points along each barrel of your gun? If so could you please post these values? I am very much interested in these results as I am trying to get better understanding of the bores and chambers of the very early (pre-1975) under lifter hammer guns.

Thanks,

Richard

Richard, the only values we got are as follows:
Chamber .770 to .761

Bores
R .730/.731
L. .731/.732

Sorry for the delay--din't see this one until now!

[Richard B. Hoover]

Dean,

I am missing my articles on 11-Gauge Parkers; History of Shotgun Chokes; Meriden Parker #90 & Prototype Parker that were on published in Parker Pages Issues.

Vol. 2/No. 4 July/Aug/ 1995
Vol. 3/No. 4 May/June 1996
Vol. 3/No. 6 Nov/Dec. 1996

If you could send me Digital Copies of my articles it would be very helpful and greatly appreciated. I plan to attend the SXS, and I will bring my Bore and Chamber Gauges with hopes that I will be able to measure some Early Parkers.

Thanks,


Richard B. Hoover

[Dean Romig]

Richard, I was saving my 10,000th post on this forum for something worthwhile and where I could help someone in this great fraternity... Thank you for giving me that opportunity. I will be more than happy to send those electronic files this evening.

Again, Thank You!

Dean

[Richard B. Hoover]

Richard, I was saving my 10,000th post on this forum for something worthwhile and where I could help someone in this great fraternity... Thank you for giving me that opportunity. I will be more than happy to send those electronic files this evening.

Again, Thank You!

Dean

Dean,

Thanks. That is wonderful. I had all of those issues of Parker Pages but took the out of my binder and have no idea where they are now. In the past 18 years, since those articles were written, the mysteries of the Parker 11 gauge gun are slowing becoming more clear.

I have just made my reservations at the Baymont Inn for the SXS. I could not book a room at the Hampton but apparently the Baymont is just across the street. I now have to reserve my seat for the Banquet, so I need to find the info about sending in my check. Larry Potterfield may also come and bring his interesting Parkers. I hope so, as I am looking forward to meeting him and seeing his guns.

Thanks for all your help.


Richard:rotf:

[Dean Romig]

As far as the Parker Gun Foundation Banquet and the First Parker Gun Hall of Fame Induction event is concerned, there is very little time left to get your check to Allan Swanson in the amount of $125 per person.... after March 20th it goes to $150 per person.

Give him a call first at 802-885-1152 or email him at ahs482@sover.net
Mail your check made to the Parker Gun Foundation and send it to Allan at 482 Skyline Drive, Weathersfield, VT 05156.

I emailed the first article to you about twenty minutes ago.

Best, Dean

[Richard B. Hoover]

Thanks, Dean. I got my check mailed in right away. Glad you mentioned the deadline.

[Arthur Shaffer]

I had never read through this thread before and a lot of posting has occurred on related subjects in the last 11 years, but I though I would add a quick note.

I own a steel barreled back action gun from around 1869. It has a 12 gauge barrel and chambers but the only info available for the research letter was that it was sent back to the factory in around 1901 to be rechambered for "modern" paper shells. It had originally chambered for the 12B cartridge. The bore diameter of those guns was nearly the same as the shell case diameter. This presented a essentially straight bore with no forcing cone.

I suspect a lot of the first model guns were for the brass 12 gauge shell. A lot of these could be mistaken for 13 gauge.

I will also note that of all the 12 and 10 lifters I own, this is the only one with a true bore dimension. All the other 12's and 10's are either 11 or 9 gauge. These are up through the early 80's guns when, according to TPS, the switch was made to true bore gauge barrels unless ordered otherwise.

[Dean Romig]

Art, I wish Richard Hoover could have measured your chambers and bores.





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[Mills Morrison]

Art, I wish Richard Hoover could have measured your chambers and bores.





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Sure miss him. His PP articles are among my favorites

[Gary Carmichael Sr]

Dean, did Richard Hoover pass? Gary

[Dean Romig]

I don’t know Gary but he had offered several times to measure peoples’ Parkers in the Parker/Smith tent at Southern events.





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