Custom Fluid Steel barreled 20g. Hammer gun project

[Brian Dudley]

I figured this long term project would be a great one to document here so that the progress of this little gun can be seen.

This project all started with a large Parker parts purchase I made maybe 6 months ago. When everything came in the mail I was going through it all figuring out what all I had gotten. I came across a complete hammer gun action with lock plates and hammers and just thought to myself, "lot of good parts there" and set it aside.
A few days later I picked it back up and got to looking at it closer and realized it was awfully small. I measured the firing pin spacing and sure enough, it was an 0 frame! I checked the serial number in the book and it was listed as originally being a 28" twist barreled 16g.
I couldnt part this action out. I decided it would be a good base for a custom build. If I was going to do this, I wanted it to be a 20g. since factory originals are rare to begin with and it would make a great little shooter.
I set out in search of a set of barrels and it didnt take long for me to find a set of NOS Remington made hammerless 20g. fluid steel barrels. They were fully finished with chambers cut to 2-3/4" and all solder joints dressed down. But the rib was not matted. Interestingly enough they were marked on the side of the lug as being for a D grade and there was a serial number even stamped on the barrel flat. 242396. Could be that these barrels were actually slated for installation onto a particular gun and that gun was never built.

First thing to do was fit the barrels to the frame. The barrels came about
1/4" from closing so some work was needed to get them to close up completely and tight. The rib extension sat a touch high and had to be worked down.
I could have taken the easy route and removed the check hook pin from the frame and made the hammerless barrels operate similar to that of lifter barrels with no positive stop point, but I wanted to do things as right as I could. The hammerless barrel lug was first altered in order to clean the check hook pin, and then a check hook removed from a junk set of barrels was attached to the hammerless lug to yield a fully functioning and finished check hook system on the new barrels. Old barrel markings were removed and the matching Serial number to the frame was stamped in.

30967

30968

Then the outside of the barrels at the breech end could be dressed down to meet the frames breech balls. New firing pin retaining screws were made and dressed down.

30969

This frame was an 0 grade with just plain line border engraving. The frame was annealed so that all of that border engraving can be polished out for a clean slate. This frame has many dents and marks in it to be worked out. Especially on the bottom side. The upper tang was dressed down and rear of the breech balls defined and a new upper tang screw fitted.

30970

The original top lever was straight. And I personally like the look and feel of fishtail top levers, so the original lever was bent into the proper fishtail shape.

30971

30972

30973

Below is a few photos of the upper area of the frame with the barrels fitted and altered top lever in place and rough polishing done.

30974

30975

My intentions for this project is to have all metal parts engraved in a grade 2 type motif so that it is dressed up enough, but not over the top. The top rib will be left un-matted, just like the early hammer guns were and the Parker Markers Mark will be hand engraved on the rib. Also just like the early hammer guns. No barrel steel will be listed in the makers mark.

I do plan on putting lightening cuts in the water table as well as milling out the underside of the forend iron as to build as light of a gun as possible.

I will update this thread with progress as things chug along.

[Mark Landskov]

Wow! That will turn into a wonderful little grouse gun, Brian. I am in awe! :bowdown:

[Rick Losey]

your talents continue to impress

[Dennis V. Nix]

Very good job, Brian. I am always impressed with the skill of accomplished gunmakers. You do very impressive work.

Dennis

[Rich Anderson]

Brian thats quite a project and a very worthwhile one as well. At the risk of being stupid (a risk I'm never afraid to take:) ) you make several references to NOS what does this mean?

[Rick Losey]

new old stock

[Rich Anderson]

Thanks Rick,its good to learn something new. If it's old stock how is it new???Makes me go Hummm:rotf::rotf:

[Brian Dudley]

The next thing I had to do was fitting of the barrels water table bead to the frame. Hammerless frames are wider and taper towards the front. Hammer guns do not taper.

30979

So this bead had to be significantly worked down to make evertyhing look right. A NOS factory oversized forend iron is being used for this project.

30980

NOS Being New Old Stock parts from the Parker Factory.
At the current time I do have a source for NOS forend irons. Trojan and Graded.
The graded irons are oversized all around so they can be fitted to 0, 1 or 2 frame guns.

Side Plate is also polished out along with the side of the frame.

30981

30982

[Rick Losey]

Thanks Rick,its good to learn something new. If it's old stock how is it new???Makes me go Hummm:rotf::rotf:

yeah talk to a car guy - that is their holy grail. show them a 50-60 year old part found in a dealers back room, still in the original packaging never used, and watch them go catatonic

[Brian Dudley]

The NOS term comes from my car background.
Unfourtunately a lot of NOS car parts are not as nice as one might hope. rusted chrome and such.

[greg conomos]

Really nice work, looking forward to seeing it done.

Yeah...at least by this day and age many NOS car parts are the defective items that were 'put back on the shelf' 50 years ago. Plus they have 50 years of shelf wear and mishandling. But....I'm still glad to get them!

[Erick Dorr]

Very impressive project. I'm looking forward to seeing photos at completion.
I wasn't aware that any early hammer guns didn't have the bbl steel marked on the top rib. Perhaps they exist but I didn't note the absence if I have looked at one. I have both a 600 and 1200 SN range lifter and they are both marked as to bbl material. I do have a black hole in that I own both lifters and hammerless PBs but haven't yet bought a TL gun.
Project is a very worthy custom endeavor.
Best Wishes,
Erick

[Brian Dudley]

Oh no. All barrels were marked with the steel type.
This one will
Not be only because I do not know what it is. I figure keep it clean with just putting the makers mark on it.

[wayne goerres]

That's going to make a really nice gun.

[John Truitt]

well done Brian.

That is very cool. Was the "check hook" modification difficult?

Please keep up posted to the guns status. Very well done sir.

PS: I like the fishtails also. Great choice.

[Brian Dudley]

Check hook modification/installation was not all that bad. The hook is welded on to the lug. Planning and making sure all was in its correct location was important. Other than that, careful file work for cleanup took care of it.

[charlie cleveland]

brian this sure is a interesting project you have going...i m watching with great interest will be waiting for up dates..charlie

[Brian Dudley]

The barrels are all worked down and fitted to the frame where they need to be. Both water table beads are shaped down and the rib extention worked down. The breech end of the barrels and back section of the rib are polished out and are being sent off to Gournet for engraving of the makers mark, breech border and dolls head.

31099

31100

[Brian Dudley]

Moving on to the bottom of the frame. It had several dents and areas that were distorted. Especially along the sides on the sculpted beads. The photos below show a pretty good before and after with one side being worked over and the other side not.

31229

[greg conomos]

High marks for making it a Grade 2 and not the usual over-the-top A-1/Invicible copy.

[Brian Dudley]

Well, as that I am currently also putting together a VH to CH upgrade, I had to look at how much money I had to go around for all the engraving work. Also, I was not quite wanting to do all the bolster sculpting required to make it a grade 3 and up style gun.

Since this gun is clearly a custom shooter and not intended to be a faithfull grade 2 replica. I do intend on giving the engraver a little free reign as to what to put down as long as it is similar in style to the a grade 2 gun. Which leaves things open a little for interpretation since grade 2 guns varied a bit in complexity over the years.

My first thought was to just do very simple border engraving and keep it VERY simple. But I know I would regret that later on.

[Bill Davis]

A very exciting project. Thank you for sharing the journey!

[Brian Dudley]

I then put the milled lightening cuts into the water table. I used a 3/8" ball end mill. The cuts are. .10" deep. Then the serial number was re stamped in the left rear cut. I did not stamp a grade number since I am not really "cloning" a particular grade.

31425

[wayne goerres]

Brian Why don't you make up your own grade for the gun. then in 100 or 150 years you will leave all the experts stumped.

[Brian Dudley]

I got my barrels back from Geoffroy Gournet today. He did a great job on putting down the engraving on the barrels. The intention was to emulate the look of the earlier hammer guns with un-matted ribs.

31499

31500

31501

31502

And below is a photo of the bottom of the frame all polished out with side sculpting fully cleaned up. The trigger plate and triggers are also polished out.

31503

[Rick Losey]

knew I should have stopped :corn:

drove right by this afternoon, I would like to see that one in progress.

it is looking really nice.

[Brian Dudley]

Sorry Rick, I was out getting in one last Grouse Hunt for the season with a friend this afternoon. So, I wasn't home.
But, you are welcome to stop in anytime.

[Daryl Corona]

Really nice Brian. Too bad you could'nt finish the barrels in a faux damascus pattern, but i'm sure it will be stunning after it is blued.

[Rich Anderson]

Will Parker Brothers be engraved anywhere on the side plates? I didn't see it in the photos.

[Brian Dudley]

Yeah. Parker Bros will be on the side plates. The remnant of the original name is still on the plates now. I still have a little more polishing to do.

[Mills Morrison]

Very cool project.

[Gary Carmichael Sr]

Brian, I must say a great project, your expertise with these old guns is unbelievable, are you a reincarnate of an old Parker employee? Gary

[Bruce Day]

xxxxx

[Brian Dudley]

There was a rather nasty chunk of metal missing from the lower left corner of the frame. This had to be built up with some weld and dressed back down.

31816

31817

And the "New Old Stock" forend is dressed down all around to fit the frame. Also, the forend iron clearance sculpting on the bottom of the frame was cleaned up. The first old photo shows the amount of metal that had to be removed from the iron.
These NOS irons are oversized enough to where they can be fitted to 0, 1 or 2 frames.

31818

31819

[Bill Zachow]

Brian, will you be at the Syracuse show in April? If so, I would like to meet you. Thanks, Bill

[Brian Dudley]

Bill,
Oh yeah, you are close. I absolutely will. I am usually in the back room. Straight in from the main entrance on the back wall. I have a table runner with my name and information printed on it.
Look forward to meeting you!
I will also be at Rochester the weekend before. There I will be up in the main hall by the entrance, by John and Alan Batzold.

[Bill Zachow]

Brian, I will see you in Syracuse. John and Alan Batzold are two of the finest old time gun dealers. Only quality guns on their tables and usually, only a few. I purchased my PH 36" 8 gauge from John at the Albany show 15 or 20 years ago. It was the only gun on his table.

[Brian Dudley]

Yes, John is a good friend and of mine. He has owned a lot of nice guns over the years.
Look forward to meeting you. I do plan on having this 20g hammer gun with me for show.

[Bill Murphy]

Brian, gun #242,396 was a 20 gauge DHE, in stock at Remington on December 9, 1942, to be reconditioned or parts added to make it sellable. I assume the work needed on the gun was to finish the barrels. Apparently, they decided to part it out rather than restoring it to new condition.

[Brian Dudley]

Thanks for the info Bill. I figured that was the situation.

[Brian Dudley]

Here are photos of the stock blank I picked out for this 20g. hammer gun. I have had this one kicking around for a while. I think it is not too much. Just nice enough.

32387

32388

[Mills Morrison]

Perfect if you ask me.

[David Dwyer]

Brian
If it was me I would step up a bit for a C grade. That looks more like a D grade. Most C's have a pretty nice piece of French. JMHO
David

[Brian Dudley]

David,
You must be a little confused with my other post maybe. This 20 g hammer gun will be built in a grade 2 style.

[David Dwyer]

Brian
Sorry, that is just perfect for a grade 2 gun.
David

[Brian Dudley]

Underside of forend milled out with lightening cuts.

32515

[Brian Dudley]

Forend wood blank mounted onto the duplicator along with a pattern forend.

32580

After running the duplication.

32581

32582

And the forend all fitted up to the metal parts and the gun.

32583

32584

32585

[Rick Losey]

I stopped by Brian's table at the local gun show this morning- as you would expect, the pictures do not do this project justice.

can't wait to see this when it is done

also- Brian showed me a set of barrels he finished, nice deep black, not a flaw in sight.

this guy has talent we haven't seen yet.

[Brian Dudley]

Thank you for the kind words Rick. It was good to see you this morning.

[Dean Freeman]

Waiting for the next installment. This is better than Game of Thrones :corn:

[Brian Dudley]

Don't go that far... Game of thrones is pretty damn good.

[Dean Freeman]

What can I say Brian... If you lived in Westeros, the Lanisters would be asking YOU to craft their valerian steel weaponry. Ok, this is getting a little nerdy:whistle: I'll quit before the others start throwing things!

[Brian Dudley]

This post is all about making up a working extractor for the 20g. hammer gun.

But first, a little background. The barrels I installed on the hammer gun frame were intended to be for a hammerless ejector gun. However, the kickers were not in the barrels.

The hole in Ejector barrels for the kicker shafts are a larger diameter than the hole in Extractor barrels for the extractor guide. Also, there is no set screw in the locking lug of ejector barrels since the rib extention is milled out for a stop plate in order to prevent the kickers from falling out. Given all those differences between ejector and extractor barrels, some modifications would be in order no matter what I did to get a working shell extractor.

I had been looking for a little while for a 20g. extractor that I could modify. However, I found that the shape of the extractor blade is different than that of a pair of ejector kickers. So that was not a viable option. The only other option I had using used parts would be to fuse together a pair of 20g. ejector kickers and use them as the extractor in my barrels. But... as we all know, finding an orphaned pair of ejector kickers for an 0 frame 20g. would be a little hard, so I didnt even try too hard.

I had an NOS unfitted extractor laying around that was oversized enough to be used for a 1 or 0 frame in 16 or 20g. So I did what it took to make this one work.

This is what I started with.

34374

First I had to remove the extractor shaft from the blade since it is too small in diameter to use in the ejector barrels.

34375

Then I could fit up just the blade to the barrels without having to worry about the shaft. I had to narrow the blade and work the top radius some to get it to fit in tightly.

34376

Then I could shape the radius in the bottom to match the barrel flats.

34377

After the blade was fitted, I thinned it down flush with the breech and I drilled a hole in it that corresponded with the shaft hole in the barrels and plug welded the shaft to the blade. Then dressed down the weld.

34378

34379

The extractor blade as new had a small hole drilled in it for the guide pin. But The barrels did not have a guide pin hole since ejector barrels do not use a guide pin. So I had to drill out the barrels for the guide pin with the extractor in place.

34380

I then turned down a piece of rod the same diameter of the drill bit for a guide pin. With the hole in the blade countersunk, I was able to insert the guide pin and plug weld it in place. Then dress down the weld.

34381

34382

34383

34384

Here is the fitted extractor with shaft and guide pin installed and in the barrels.

34385

34386

Then I had to remove the excess material in the chamber area.

34387

Finally, The extractor set screw hole could be drilled out and tapped. A new set screw was made and the extractor shaft notched for it.

34388

34389

I am going to end up sending the barrels out to have the chokes opened up and the bores/chambers checked and lapped. The shell rims will be cut in at that time.

[dwight pugh]

Mr. Dudley you are truly a craftsman !!!

[Bill Zachow]

Brian, what does the B on the barrel lug signify? Thanks again for your continued posting on this project. Your workmanship continues to be flawless and I am sure admired by all of the PGCA membership.

[Brian Dudley]

I am not sure. It was a mark that was on it when I got it. Likely from. Remington when the barrels were made.

[Kevin McCormack]

Brian, what does the B on the barrel lug signify? Thanks again for your continued posting on this project. Your workmanship continues to be flawless and I am sure admired by all of the PGCA membership.

The "B" represents the mark of Leon Bartholomew, a Parker Gun inspector. We had a chance to meet and talk with him at the PGCA "Meriden Homecoming" during the summer of 2003.

[Mike Franzen]

I think this is my all time favorite thread. Keep working, keep photographing, keep posting!

[Bill Murphy]

Brian, who is going to do the cutting of the rim recess? I was reading the post waiting for pictures of you doing it, but I guess you're not going to do it. Thanks for any information you can give me.

[Brian Dudley]

I took the barrels to Turnbull to have the rims cut and the bores/chambers polished. I have all the tools to do this for 12g, but not for 20g. Just haven't bought them yet.
I figure that since the barrels were new manufacture and never fitted, I would have them all gone over and make sure they are good to go.

The bores are a very tight 20g and the choke as they are is about. .007" in both bores. I wish they had been both full choked as I would have liked to have the left a little tighter. But I can live with the open chokes.

[Brian Dudley]

Time for an update on this one.

I got the barrels back from turnbull a while ago. I am currently working on a run of several barrel sets and mics. parts for bluing, so I figured I would get the barrels for this gun in final polishing and rust bluing.

Below are a series of photos of the bluing process.

The barrels are finish polished out and ready to start the bluing process.

37335

They are de-greased in a bath of denatured alcohol.

37336

For plugging the bores and handling I use a pair of 36" threaded rods with rubber stoppers (that I have drilled out), washers and nuts on each end. when the nuts are tightened down the rubber plugs are seated into the chamber and muzzle. The hole in the plugs allows air to vent out of the bores while minimizing the amount of water that gets into the bores. The length of rod that sticks out the ends work great for hanging the barrels in the tank and also for handling them.

37337

37338

The barrels are swabbed down with alchohol before each rusting and then warmed a little with a torch. A cotton swab is used to apply a solution to the barrels which causes the metal to oxidize. Here is a photo after the first rusting.

37339

Then the barrel is boiled in the water tank for a little bit. When the barrel comes out, the red oxide is converted to black oxide.

37340

37341

On the surface is a light coating of "Black Velvet" that needs to be carded off using a super fine stainless wire wheel.

37342

That is the end of one cycle in the bluing process. This is all repeated about 8 to 10 times to get the deep black color required. Every set is different and the environment effects it as well. After enough processes have been done, the barrels are neutralized with baking soda and water, dried and coated with oil to cure.

37343

37344

[wayne goerres]

The barrels look great Brian. Were did you get your plastic tank for your alcohol bath.

[Rick Losey]

looks like the wallpaper tray I use for browning

[Brian Dudley]

It is a wallpaper tray.

[wayne goerres]

Thanks Brian. I will see if I can find one.

[Dean Freeman]

Is the rolled engraving removed during polishing? How do you polish the top of the rib if not? Are there liquid "strippers" that will clean areas like the top of the rib?

[Brian Dudley]

Well this is a set of new barrels and all engraving is hand cut. And there was no rib matting.
I take it you mean barrel sets in general.
There are commercial bluing removers, but if they are used, polishing still needs to be done. As far as rib matting and roll stamp makers marks, I just polish off the surface and leave the old bluing in the matting and lettering. It is rust bluing anyway and that is the same process I am using, so it all just blends in fine when finished.

[Dean Freeman]

Thanks Brian,
Yes, I was referring to examples where one would re-brown/etch barrels. I Was curious as to how it's done.

[Terry McElrea]

Awesome thread! Thanks Brian, looking forward to the final product!

[Brian Dudley]

Finally got back to doing a little something on this 20g.

Buttstock duplication.

I originally planned on using a different blank for the project, but the figure was a little unbalanced from one side to the other.

Since that time, I had acquired a good deal of American walnut and in that bunch was a blank that was on the thin side, perfect for an 0 frame stock, and it had very nice even curl in the butt.

I opted for an uncapped pistol grip for the stock. Luckily I had an 0 frame top action stock around that was no where near perfect, but good enough to get a pattern out of. When duplicating, I left the top of the stock in block since I wanted higher dimensions than the pattern stock had.

41979

41980

41981

[keavin nelson]

Brian,
so you changed duplicating machines in the middle of this. What make is the blue one? And what happened to the remainder of this thread?

[Brian Dudley]

This project has fallen to the bottom of the priority list given it is personal.