1909 Parker VH Info Needed (Tiger Striped Case)

[Christopher Barker]

I am trying to get as much info as possible on this SXS Parker. The case shows colors unlike anything I have seen before, but have been told by 1 gunsmith that it could be a factory finish. All the info is below. If anyone has any info, I would be greatly appreciative.

Serial # 150XXX (The full serial is visible on the watertable)
1909 manufacture date based on the serial #
Side by Side Double Barrel 12 Gauge
Rib says Vulcan Steel
Lines on the rib go all the way to the end of the 26" barrels
Blueing faded on the barrels
Barrels need to be tightened (have a little play in them)
Case has tiger striped symmetrical pattern
Frame size on barrel lug is faded

I am curious about the following info:
Did the shotgun actually came with the 26" from the factory?
Does the case appear to be factory finished?
Any idea of value?
Is there anything in the order books on the factory frame size?
Any other info on the gun from the experts here that I am not bright enough to ask about?

I have new, but from what I have seen on the forums, the Research Letter is important to have, but it doesn't answer some questions and even raises other questions. I plan on getting the Research Letter, but I was hoping to get some informatino beforehand.

[David Noble]

The barrel length checks out the correct length according to the serialization book. I suspect a refinish of the trigger guard and frame. You will want to address the looseness in the barrels. That can be as simple as a shim in the pivot.
It looks like a new front bead is in order. Otherwise, the gun should make a good shooter.

[Christopher Barker]

Thanks for verifying the barrel length. The finish on the top tang appears to be from a former refinishing job. Would a quality professional refinish affect the value positively if there has already been a former refinish job done on the stock? I know that the former refinish job is at least 60 years old.

[Brian Dudley]

Another example where the matting running off ended up not proving that the barrel length is altered. Book confirms 26" length. Providing it is accurate. Research letter would confirm.
Factory 26" barrels would add a little bit of a rarity factory to it. Just a little.

The colors on the frame are cyanide dip like the kind that DelGrego used to do. Cannot tell for sure if they would have been the shop to have done it or not. But it is NOT factory work. The top lever has been blued which is NOT correct. And it looks like based on your photos that maybe the forend latch was blued too??? but hard to tell with the lighting in the photo. And yes, the trigger guard blue is redone as well. There is some old oil or varnish on the gun's metal parts in areas that could stand to be cleaned off.

The gun is a 2 frame most likely based on the style of buttplate on it.

[Christopher Barker]

That's interesting. If DelGrego or another quality shop did the case refinishing, would there be any stamp on the case that could prove that? Or did DelGrego keep records that survived on work orders?

I checked out some of the tiger striping on DelGrego's work, but I can't find any examples that have the symmetry on the underside that this one has.

[Bruce Day]

Chris, since you have a statement from Larry or Lawrence Del Grego that original Parkers are tiger striped and use black and white color case colors, I have deleted my post about cyanide case color techniques.

Good luck with your investigation.

[Christopher Barker]

I called DelGrego in NY. He said that without having the gun in their hands, there is no way to tell if it came from their shop. He said that they have case hardened 90,000 Parker's over their existence. He did say that Parker did some tiger striping and the silver and black color are the colors that Parker and DelGrego used, as DelGrego used the same Parker tanks. I will have to ship it to DelGrego for them to confirm or deny that they did the work.

[Brian Dudley]

Why are you so concerned about who did them work? To the point of paying to ship the gun to DelGrego for confirmation.
Is it really that important to know who did the incorrect work on the gun?
Rest assured, it was not factory work.

90,000 guns have gone through DelGrego's shop for coloring? Wow... That is about a third of the Parkers made in total.:rotf:

[Christopher Barker]

Dudley, I must have hurt your feelings by trying to find out more information about a gun. To respond to your terse response, I would like to know everything available about the guns that I have some interest in. I came to this forum because I was hoping to find some experts on here who knew more than me about this subject. Don't waste your time questioning why I want more information.

Ignorance is Bliss, but Knowledge is Power.

If all you have left to offer is rhetorical sarcastic statements, your input is not needed, nor welcome. If, however, you have anything of substance to add, please post to your heart's content.

[Bruce Day]

It could be done.

90,000 Parkers recase colored. 60 years at 200 work days per year= 12,000 total work days. 90,000 Parkers divided by 12,000 work days = 7.5 Parkers per work day, disassembled, striped out, buffed, case colored, refitted, reassembled, and returned . That time would include driving back and forth to the industrial shop in Herkimer that did job work case hardening for Del Grego.

What this tells us is that Parker and Remington were very inefficient, because they did 240,000 over 70 years, but their workforce was about 6-7 men in the finishing and final fitting/ case color department, and they only produced 240,000 guns , or 17 per work day with many times the labor force of the single man Del Grego shop.

[Bill Murphy]

Save your shipping money, sir. This gun has never been to the Del Grego shop. There are no factory finished or Del Grego refinished Parkers that look like yours. If knowledge is power, I have shared my power with you, as well as financial advice. Not many #2 frame 26" V Grades out there. Is yours one of them? To answer another of your questions, the order book will not mention the frame size. It is marked on the gun and can be confirmed with a machinist's scale measuring the firing pin separation. By the way, Del Grego does not have any "Parker tanks". No one has ever done any cyanide case coloring in Del Grego's 400 square foot shop. Finally, your gun has never seen the inside of a "quality shop" as you describe it. You have a nice gun, but not because of the work of any gunsmith who has ever touched it.

[Brian Dudley]

Dudley, I must have hurt your feelings by trying to find out more information about a gun. To respond to your terse response, I would like to know everything available about the guns that I have some interest in. I came to this forum because I was hoping to find some experts on here who knew more than me about this subject. Don't waste your time questioning why I want more information.

Ignorance is Bliss, but Knowledge is Power.

If all you have left to offer is rhetorical sarcastic statements, your input is not needed, nor welcome. If, however, you have anything of substance to add, please post to your heart's content.

Anyone who knows me or has dealt with me knows that I am all about helping people. And I know as much as anyone else that one never stops learning new things.

And... I very rarely resort to any sort of sarcasm in my posts.
I just could not help myself in response to the fact that Lawrence Delgrego claims that their shop has case colored 90,000 Parkers.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with you wanting to find out as much information on your VH as possible, and I think thus far you have discovered quite a bit from the knowledgeable people on this forum. Your VH was factory fitted with 26" barrels, it is likely a 2 or maybe a 1-1/2 frame and the metal finishes on the gun are not factory original. All answers to the questions that you ask for answers to.

By the way, if the frame marking is illegible on the barrel lug, you can confirm frame size by measuring the spacing of the firing pin holes on centers, the height of the standing breech and also the width of the breech balls on the outside.

Firing Pin spacing:
2 frame:1-1/8"
1-1/2 frame: 1-1/8"
1 frame: 1-1/16"

Over Breech Balls
2 frame: 2-3/8"
1-1/2 frame: 2-1/4"
1 frame: 2-1/4"

Standing breech:
2 frame: 1-1/4"
1-1/2 frame 1-3/16"
1 frame: 1-3/16"

[Harryreed]

Brian, hats off to you for your helpful response to the questions asked by Mr Barker. I have been reading this forum for a while and I have never seen a hint of sarcasm in any of your posts!!! This thread included. You are a valuable resource for others reading this forum and are to be commended for taking the high road in the previous post.

Harry

[Christopher Barker]

Dudley, thank you for your response. I have learned a lot already from the replies by everyone. The only way I am going to learn anything further in this subject based on my limited resources is to ask questions. When someone questions why I am asking questions, it concerns me that I may be wasting my time in the wrong forum, as my intent is to learn as much as possible by asking those questions and investigating any lead I can. I appreciate the information you provided to help me answer some of those questions.

[Bruce Day]

The best way to learn about Parkers is to buy, study and know The Parker Story, join the PGCA, read the Parker Pages, follow the forum and go to the Southern and look at Parkers. And recognize BS when you hear it.

There are less costly guns to get into than Parkers.

[edgarspencer]

I might believe 9,000, but 90,000 is utterly ridiculous.
Parker, when located in Meriden, where you gun was made, case hardened their receivers by a bone/charcoal/organic method which used "boxes", not tanks. There may have been quench tanks into which the material was dumped, but that just a water tank. This not withstanding, I have never seen case colors like yours on a Delgrego refinished gun.
In the serial range of your gun, I find it difficult to accept that the original top rib was unterminated. A possible scenario may be that the original barrels were lost, and replacement ones cut and fitted. Matching serial numbers means nothing as we've all seen barrels marked correctly by others. A way to determine if they are original in length is to confirm the choke measurements with the order or stock book information. The photo of the muzzle looks like they're rather thick, though a 2 frame gun will have heavy barrels. What is the weight stamp on the barrel flats?

[John Dallas]

Christopher - It's Mr. Brian Dudley

[Christopher Barker]

The weight on the flats is 3^8.

[Christopher Barker]

OK, Brian. Most of my friends call each other by our last names. There was no disrespect implied.

[Brian Dudley]

3-8 seems a little on the light side for a normal (longer than 26") set of 2 frame barrels. So that supports that they are original 26", that may account for the light I struck weight.
My 1-1/2 frame DHE with 26" barrels has I struck weight of 3-7.
I has a 2 frame VH here with 30" barrels with weight is 4-2.

I am used to the last name only from my high school days. My 2 best friends were both also named Brian. Well, one Brian and the other Bryan. So we all got called by our last names by everyone.

[edgarspencer]

The gun is a 2 frame most likely based on the style of buttplate on it.

Brian, I have two 1 1/2 frame guns with that HRBP. It was also the style on the unfired VH shown here previously
3#8oz sounds pretty light for unstruck 2 frame bbls. Maybe Mr. Baker could get and accurate firing pin cl measurement.

[Brian Dudley]

Yeah, I got to thinking that the 1-1/2 frame also uses the same buttplate as a 2 frame.
That's why I added 1-1/2 frame the possibility. Firing pin spacing will not tell the whole story since 2 and 1-1/2 are the same. Will have to check out other dims such as breech ball width or height of standing breech.

I am surprised that the frame size marking is completely illegible. But, I have seen some stamped pretty light. Or maybe it was removed for some reason.

[Chris_Caile]

I have a VH #2 frame with 28" with weight of 3-15, & a PH 1 1/2 26" barrels with weight 3-4. Both have letters to confirm original barrels lengths and frames.

[Bill Murphy]

In this serial number range, there would be nothing unusual about either frame size being used, with the barrel weight of 3-8. The stock could be a #2 stock with the #2 style buttplate, and a #1 1/2 frame, nothing unusual about that. From Brian's posted frame dimensions, it will be easy for Chris to determine the actual frame size. Still a scarce gun and a great shooting gun.

[John Taddeo]

Dudley, thank you for your response. I have learned a lot already from the replies by everyone. The only way I am going to learn anything further in this subject based on my limited resources is to ask questions. When someone questions why I am asking questions, it concerns me that I may be wasting my time in the wrong forum, as my intent is to learn as much as possible by asking those questions and investigating any lead I can. I appreciate the information you provided to help me answer some of those questions.

Chris, you actually have an unlimited resource using this forum. The people answering your questions are doing so with respect for your gun and your concerns.. Use it wisely and all their knowledge will be reciprocated to you gladly...

[paul stafford jr]

the two old guns I had delgregos recolor were gone for over a year, seem like a problem with the math, two guns a year for sixty years comes to a 120 , but they sure look nice for old beaters . I was told they sub out the case color work or not?

[Christopher Barker]

I will get those measurements tomorrow. What are the open breech ball and the standing breech. I am guessing one of them is the breech face.

[Brian Dudley]

The easiest for you to check would be the width of the breech balls. Or in other words, the width of the breech end of the barrels. Will be 2-1/4" or 2-3/8". Check out that and the firing pin spacing on centers.

[wayne goerres]

got out my magnifying glass and it looks to me like the barrel weight is three pounds eleven oz. not three pounds eight oz. Did anybody notice the funny line running across the rib about two or three inches from the muzzle. I don't look at many V grades but I havn't seen that before. Maybe it is gust the camera.

[will evans]

Ever wonder how many Parkers with problems, such as old broken stocks, were turned in during the steel drives of WWII? How many rusted/busted Parkers left in barns, damp closets, garages, etc were simply thrown in the trash dumpster after grandma died 20 years after grandpa died, 40 years after being set down for the last time? If my mother had found a shotgun in her dad's house with about 3" of splintered wood remaining on the receiver, she would have instantly recognized the gun as useless to anyone. Garbage pile. Subtract out all of those, plus add up the unknown number of Parkers which are still 1st and 2nd generation, same family ownership - Del Greco would have potentially refinished close to half of the remaining Parkers in existence, and there would be hundreds available for purchase on Gunbroker. 90,000 is one of the most ridiculous claims since Wilt Chamberlain. I will assume there has been a misunderstanding.

[Christopher Barker]

Based on the measurements, it is a 1 1/2 frame.

[Bill Murphy]

Next step, the PGCA letter. Not likely to be that interesting, but it will add quite a bit to the value if you choose to sell the gun. Without the letter, the suspicion of a cut off barrel will detract seriously from value.

[Dean Romig]

Here is an old cobbled-together GH that I owned about a decade ago. Notice the cyanide color stripes... very uniform, similar to that of the subject VH of this thread. My old GH had never seen DelGrego's shop.



.

[Brian Dudley]

Based on the measurements, it is a 1 1/2 frame.

1-1/2 makes sense with the 26" barrels.

[Bill Murphy]

Once at OGCA, I bought a #2 frame VH with cut off 26" barrels for about $250. After enjoying it for a while, I put it on the rack at a gun store where I was working with an $800 tag on it. The tag explained the cut barrels. I told the boss that I would take $300 for it. One day, I came to work and the boss handed me an $800 check. He had sold the gun for full price.

[Christopher Barker]

Thanks for all of the great information guys. I apologize for misjudging the intentions of Brian Dudley. He has been most helpful, as you all have. I am planning on getting the letter next. Also, thanks for helping me save the shipping to DelGrego's to find out they didn't do the work.

Does anyone have any idea of the current value of the gun and how much, if any value could be added by a reputable company do the proper refinish on it?

[Bill Murphy]

This won't answer your questions, but a 26" barrel 12 gauge is at the very lowest level of popularity in Parker shotgun sales.

[Dean Romig]

But on a 1 1/2 frame it is probably about a 7 lb. gun and a pretty easy gun to carry.

[Brian Dudley]

Given that the gun is in its original configuration, that is a plus. In its current condition, with incorrect metal finishes, it is really considered a hunter/shooter and is worth what someone would pay for it. Not knowing what you have into the gun, it is hard to tell if it would be a good investment to correct the finish issues that the gun has. It is easier to justify such work in the senario where the gun does not owe you much of anything.

And also, restoration can be taken as far as your heart desires. Or just what is needed. In your case, correction of the metal finishes would address the "problem areas" but would you want to stop there? It may become a labor of love. But either way you want to own and shoot a gun that you are proud to have. Whatever that may be is up to you.

And 26" barrels do add a rarety factor from a production numbers standpoint. But most shooters today like longer barrels. But yes, your gun would make a nice carrying bird gun.