Original vs TLC

[Rich Anderson]

Mark Callanan's thread on value of original vs restored has brought up a lot of good points that I'd like to explore further so therefor a new thread so as not to hijack his any further.

The English have sent their guns back to the respective maker after the season for ever with no real determint to value to have them freshened up. This might mean the barrels get reblacked, the stock refinished, case color redone etc. This process has always had a negative effect on American guns be it a Parker or a Winchester M70 etc.

My question is what is the opinion here of haveing a little TLC done to a 100+ year old Parker going to do to its value?

My case in point is a CHE damascuss 20ga. IMHO the barrels could use the expertise of Dale Edmonds/Brad Batchelder and the Silvers pad is flat as a pancake. To replace the pad isn't a big concern as I would retain the original pad with the gun. Once the barrels are done the "originality" is lost forever. This is one of the more rare guns I have as according to TPS only 8 were made with 26 inch bbls and th gun is exactly as the PGCA letter depics.

I have been told not to touch this as "where are you going to find a 100% original gun like this one?"

Opinions please:)

[Jeff Davis]

i think the approach you take is what you intend to do with the gun. If your only concern is collector value and resale it seems obvious that refinishing seems to hurt the value. For me- every gun I own I will shoot, so buying a gun in need of refinishing, or refinishing a gun that has had several years of use and needs freshening up is no problem for me. If I spend more than the gun is worth I will. I spent a great deal of time in my life hunting with beater guns. I don't need to any more. I like the signature one of the members here has- something like don't hunt with a gun that will embarrass your dog.

If I was looking for a gun, and I was looking at a gun in original 70% condition, or a gun that had been restored "as new" and done well I pick the restored one every time. My heirs can worry about the resale value. So in your gun's case- if you were going to sell it to me a new pad and refinished barrels would increase my interest.

I guess that's pretty much the answer that's been given before- value is only dependent on the buyers and seller expectations, so restored or original you just need to find the buyer that wants what you've got.

A guy I used to know had a funny little saying when it came to selling stuff. He'd say that there an A$$ for every seat.

[Rich Anderson]

I hunt with it ( I haven't gotten anything with it yet and it's turning out to be an unlucky gun in the Grouse coverts:)) but someday I'll sell it and hopefully turn a profit. I don't have anything I don't use.

[David Dwyer]

Rich
If you do the barrels you will lose value but if you gain enough enjoyment from the "new" barrels it may be worth it. Recase coloring a gun is a major loss of value, barrels less so. That is a rare gun and if it was me, I would just enjoy it as is and not create one less special Parker. A girl is only a virgin once.
David

[Dean Romig]

A guy I used to know had a funny little saying when it came to selling stuff. He'd say that there an A$$ for every seat.

That's what we say in the automobile business and its truth rings as soundly as a bell.

[Jeff Davis]

I hunt with it ( I haven't gotten anything with it yet and it's turning out to be an unlucky gun in the Grouse coverts:)) but someday I'll sell it and hopefully turn a profit. I don't have anything I don't use.

Well then I guess that's part of the answer. If its a gun you're carrying in the grouse coverts, each year that goes by, you'll wear off a little more case color, a little more blue off the barrels, you'll get a few more dings and scratches on the stock. Let's face it- every time you bring it in the woods, particularly if the covers you hunt are like the ones I do, there is a relatively good chance some damage could happen to the gun. I fall at least once every season, and each time that I do my main concern is injury to myself or anyone around me. I'm not concerned about breaking the stock on the gun or denting the barrel. If something is going to get sacrificed it will be the gun. You seem to want to refinish it, otherwise you wouldn't be considering it. Resale obviously is not your only concern, otherwise you would put it in the safe and leave it there. You seem to want to enjoy the gun, so do what makes you enjoy it more.

[Dean Romig]

Each gun must be assessed on its own. A hard and fast rule can't be applied across the board to all Parkers. Common, low grade guns with no special features and no documented provenance to a shooter of note, that are in poor cosmetic condition, can only be improved by refinishing or a complete restoration. That is the owner's choice. But don't expect to recover your expenses at the time of sale - you'll break even at best.
On the other hand, a rare, scarce, specially optioned, or unique Parker requires a lot more consideration. What do you intend to accomplish by refinishing such a gun? Refinishing or a full restoration of such guns might just damage the intrinsic value of such a gun that has a patina that bespeaks the loving use and care of the gun by the original owner.... why would anyone want to eradicate that on such a gun?
Some such guns however, can benefit from the expert's hand in enhancing the appearance of a worn-out or abused (by subsequent owners) gun that otherwise, might be placed on the "project gun" pile. These "experts" are infinitely few (I'll keep my opinions to myself on who) and just who you send your gun to will require a great deal of homework and examination of their work with a very keen eye.

"To each his own." and I firmly believe in this but remember, original, unmessed-with Parkers are becoming fewer and fewer and many of them need to remain in original condition.

I had this one "freshened up" a bit by someone I and many others consider to be an expert. He refinished the wood and nicely recheckered it, and cleaned the rest of it but didn't refinish the barrels or the other metal parts. It doesn't look newly refinished and I didn't want it to. I wanted most of the original owner's evidence of use and care to still be evident.... to me it makes the gun still more "Admiral Thomas Perry's" than mine... I'm just the intermediary custodian of the gun for now.



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[Dean Romig]

Oh, by the way, I take it to the grouse coverts.


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[Bobby Cash]

It seems to me that the same contingent of "Collectors" who opine that it is sacrilege to refinish a rare or scarce gun might be the same group who would have no interest in buying that gun in its' original glory due to its' lack of condition.

How distressed is distressed enough to warrant a restoration?

[Angel Cruz]

Rich, you can't hit anything with it because you are probably not mounting it right due to not wanting to do any more damage to the pad. As to the bbls., once Dale get thru with them they will only increase the value of the gun once you are able to see the beauty of the bbls. Get her done, enjoy the heck out of her and damn the price down the road.
But then again, what the heck do I know...

[Dean Romig]

It seems to me that the same contingent of "Collectors" who opine that it is sacrilege to refinish a rare or scarce gun might be the same group who would have no interest in buying that gun in its' original glory due to its' lack of condition.

How distressed is distressed enough to warrant a restoration?

In answer to your question, again, "To each his own."

I bought Adm. Perry's gun, fully knowing its provenance, in rough condition, for quite a tidy sum :shock: with the full intention of someday making it nice again.

[Fred Verry]

Rich, the easy answer is to pick up another set of 20 guage damascus 0 frame barrels and have them pimped up and fitted. A rotted bore set would work since these would be just used for shooting, add sleeve and choke tubes. You already have the solution to the pad issue solved. Mount the new one, don't cut the wood and keep the old one for resale. Let me know if you run across a set of tired 16 gauge 0 frame Dam while looking for the 20s, I have a similar project ongoing....:cool:

[Bobby Cash]

...Get her done, enjoy the heck out of her and damn the price down the road.

+1

What if I borrow a tad of equity from some real investments to pay down any potential loss of value on a restoration.
The guns I own are emotional tangible assets. That being said, how do you put a price tag on their utilitarian and experiential value.
Life is short, you only live once.

[Craig Larter]

When I have found myself in the same situation as Rich Anderson---rare gun that has warts that bug me (the result of an emotional purchase)----I sell it and move on. It doesn't take long to forget about a cast off gun and set your sights on something more satisfying. In the long run you will be happier and better of financially. Craig

[Harold Lee Pickens]

Rich,
some pictures would be beneficial so that we could see the condition.

[Dean Freeman]

As to the question regarding which makes more sense; diligent maintenance of a gun up to and including regular restoration (ala the way the brits might approach the issue). Or never touching the gun except for regular maintenance in order to retain as much "original" character as possible (ala the current American collector ethos). I think the brits have it right. A gun is a gun in their eyes and therefore from their perspective, the guns they have are maintained to the highest standard. The value of the gun is maintained or perhaps increased because the gun is MAINTAINED in ORIGINAL condition, or so the prevailing opinions of the British gun culture might posit. In my humble opinion, it makes sense that a gun would be maintained to an original state. The addition and retaining of wear, use, or love marks can be considered by heirs or collectors depending on provenance, historical importance, or personal and emotional ties to the gun. Collectors and the market at large could determine value on a case to case basis. Coincidentally, this might attach a sense of importance to the maintaining of records for all gun owners (a trait I'll bet we all wish was common among the previous caretakers of our guns). Otherwise guns in the mainstream would be looked upon as items to be cared for to the fullest extent. A paradigm shift that might help current would-be heirlooms last for generations. If our gun culture looked at its guns in this manner, perhaps there wouldn't be so many misused, neglected guns out there. I for one would prefer that more parkers had made it to the present day, and would gladly sacrifice any current equity in my guns to make that wish come true.
I understand both sides of this argument, and agree with points from both camps. The point I make here reflects my wishes for what has happened and my hopes for what might happen. Obviously, however these are merely MY opinions and are certainly apt to be as flawed as I am at times.

[Dean Romig]

Unfortunately, for we Americans, we can't send our Parkers back to the maker every year or two for routine maintenance and freshening like the Brits do... So, if we want our Parkers refinished, restored, freshened and maintained we need to seek out an "expert" in this field. An awful lot of Parkers have been spoiled (and their $ value diminished) by trusting the wrong "expert" to perform the work.
As I stated before, the real experts are infinitely few but there are quite a few gunsmiths who think they are.

[Rich Anderson]

The pad is an easy decision, a new Silvers installed just as the original and the original retained with the gun. After getting two sets of barrels back from Dale recently I wondered about the potential in these.

It,s not that I can't hit anything with it I just never see anything to shoot at when I'm hunting with it:eek:

It took a year to get this I'm not going to part with it for quite a while.

[Dean Romig]

That's a dandy little CH Rich. Aside from the pad, I don't think I'd rush into anything else in the way of restoration or refinishing.

That's a close cousin to Bruce Day's but his has the roundelle engraving style.

[David Noble]

Rich, that is a wonderful and beautiful Parker.
I'm with you on swapping the pad. You don't want that original pad falling apart on you from continued use. Put it away and stick a nice new replacement on it. The new pad will be more pliable and thus easier on your stock and shoulder.
I don't know how the finish is on the rest of the barrel but the breech end looks very nice.
Unless they're freckled like a redheaded Dutch girl, I'd be hard pressed to redo them. (No offense to freckled redheaded Dutch girls, I think they are special and beautiful, I just don't like my barrels rusty and freckled.)

[Bill Murphy]

For true collectors, replacement of this pad would be an expensive mistake. I don't care if it does self destruct in the next seven or twenty seven years of use, it would be better than a fresh Silver. If the pad to be replaced is a Pachmayr, that would be different.

[John Truitt]

that is one dam fine looking gun.

make of her what you want her to be and enjoy her. you will do fine either way.

[Richard Flanders]

I'd replace the pad with one like Deans, which, unlike most every other useless recoil pad in existence, actually do reduce felt recoil, keep the original, and not touch the rest.... and be very kind to it in the coverts. What can that possibly hurt??

[bruce a lyons]

Anybody got a 32 Packard or 57 T-Bird thats all origional? Are the tires and brakes OE?

[Bobby Cash]

I've seen the faces of "true collectors" and there is a lot of white hair.
Might the next generation of "true collectors" feel differently about restoration?
I'm kind of wondering if there will be any interest at all in the relics we covet.

[Rich Anderson]

I'm kind of wondering if there will be any interest at all in the relics we covet.

Bobby I wonder the same thing and at times have contemplated the pluses and minuses of selling most everything while there is still a market for them. So far the minuses are winning:whistle:

[Jeff Davis]

One thing I think could really kill the market for these guns is a federal lead ban ala California. Hopefully if that did happen the alternatives would get cheaper. I'd still use these guns for hunting. But those who use them to do a lot of skeet/trap shooting- that would be an expensive proposition at current prices.

[Greg Phillips]

Rich,

keep this beauty as is, same pad, barrel finish, enjoy...nice gun

[will evans]

I also worry about a lead ban as being devastating to value and field use. I also wonder about collector interest from future generations. The bottom line is that guns have not generally proven to be strong long-term investments. I'm not sure how replacing the pad and retaining the old one is of any harm to the value of the gun, if the old pad is retained. The old pad would still be fit to the gun, right?

My wife is on a kick about tearing the roof off of our house for a $200K face lift. Her stated goal was to increase our resale value, but in the next breath said she has no plans for us to sell the house. Our neighbors have been taking on these same projects and then capturing a tidy profit in the current intown Atlanta real estate market. I feel my questions to her parallel this discussion:

1) Do we know what the market will bring for our face lift investment years from now when /if we decide to sell? Will the market be stronger than current, or might economic conditions take another nasty turn for some unforeseen reason?

2) How are we to know what layout (see condition) the next owner will prefer? Might we be better off standing pat until ready to sell, at which time we can let the then current market determine if we should sell as is, or renovate and then sell?

I suggested that we should proceed with the renovation if the goal is strictly for our own enjoyment, but that we shouldn't presume that any investment in our home will necessarily result in a profit at an unknown future point in time. My current regret is that I didn't have that conversation before she had already spent $5000 with an architect.

When I hunt with my old guns, I like to think about the who's and where's the old girls might have visited. That's why I LOVE a little carry wear. Pristine, unused condition is a pleasure to see, but those guns also have a little less nostalgia in my mind. When I see a "restored" shotgun, I can't help but feel like the person who did the work forever washed away the hand prints of the previous owner, effectively exorcising their ghosts from the gun. That's just me. Obviously others see it different, otherwise people like Turnbull wouldn't be in business.

[Dean Romig]

Will, your term "forever exorcising their ghosts from the gun." is the opinion I have always held but could never express it in the way you so eloquently did.
I can appreciate the work of Turnbull, Trevallion, and others because they keep as closely as possible to the original in their restorations but again, the fingerprints and the ghosts are gone.

[wayne goerres]

Unfortunatly sometimes you buy an old gun that may be somewhat rare and some idiot has blued a set of Damascus barrels. That's where the restorers like Turnbull come in. The damage has bin done so it has to be fixed by someone that knows what they are doing.