Stock Book Help

[Chuck Bishop]

While doing a research letter on a 1881 hammer gun, the stock book entry showed some extra information that is usually not seen due to the way the stock books were copied at Remington. I'm trying to figure out exactly what it is.

Usually the far right of the stock book copy ends with the weight of the gun. In some stock book copies, to the right of the weight column, you can sometimes make out the patterning information. From seeing an original stock book, I know there is more information to the right of the patterning information and as I remember, it contains the type of shell used for the patterning.

While reviewing stock book #6, I can see a column that I've never seen before on our copies. The gauges are all 10's and 12's and the column contains numbers and fractions. The only 3 I've seen are 2 1/4, 2 3/8, and 2 1/2. Are these chamber length's, drams, or something else. Usually if the chamber length is noted in the stock books, it's on the left side of the page.

Any ideas what those numbers represent? Perhaps some of the guys that did the copying know the answer.

[Dean Romig]

Chuck, are those recorded fractions against 12 ga guns or 10 ga guns?

[Bill Murphy]

Chuck, you would have to tell us what the columns were labeled before the figures you mentioned. I have very few stock book copies, since they were so hard to load on the copy machine.

[Dean Romig]

They could even be DAC measurements I suppose.

[Daryl Corona]

They look more like DAH measurements. Never heard of 2 1/4" chambers or DE.

[Mills Morrison]

I was thinking the same thing - DAH or DAC. But are those dimensions shown elsewhere in the entry?

[Chuck Bishop]

Nope, they aren't DAH measurements, DAH measurements are listed separately in a different column.

Murphy, there is no column header for that column. The column that lists the patterning info is labeled "Target".

I'll scan a page and post it tomorrow.

[Brian Dudley]

Could it have something to do with chokes maybe???

[Craig Larter]

How about pitch dimensions.

[Dean Romig]

I wouldn't think they would narrow pitch down to the 1/8"

[Bill Murphy]

I will look forward to seeing the scan. Thanks, Chuck.

[Chuck Bishop]

Here is a sample scan. Sorry for the poor quality but now you know what I'm faced with when doing a research letter.

It doesn't matter if it's a 10 or 12 gauge. Either gauge will have 2 1/2 - 2 3/8 - or 2 5/8 or 2 1/4. I did find a 16 gauge that said 2 1/4. I think it has something to do with the barrels, not drams.

[Dave Suponski]

Chuck, Could it be Dram Equiv.?

[John Gardner]

:eek:Ouch! You need to charge more for a research letter Chuck....at least enough to cover new glasses each year!
PS Please wait until I get two more through! :rotf:

[Chuck Bishop]

Dave, I thought that at first too but in Parker literature, they recommend 3 dr for 12ga and 3 1/4 for 10ga. I doubt they would use such a light load for their patterning.

John, you get used to it but sometimes it's quite a challenge.

[Mills Morrison]

Could it be department codes IE: which group of craftsmen made the gun?

[Craig Parker]

Trying to find pic I took that had a faction in pencil on stock when I removed butt plate.
Craig

[Matt Valinsky]

This might be one heck of a long shot, but, could it be trigger pull weight? 2-1/4 might be 2lbs 4oz, 2-5/8 = 2lbs 10oz. Sounds kinda light for a hunting gun I would think.

Like I said, a long shot.......

[Brian Dudley]

Trying to find pic I took that had a faction in pencil on stock when I removed butt plate.
Craig

What was under the buttplate should be the serial number or at least the last few numbers of it. That is common on guns with buttplates. The number would be hand written on both the wood and the plate.

[Craig Parker]

Brian, just found it, was thinking it showed something more than the faction.

Craig

[Brian Dudley]

Huh, that has a lot of things written on it.

[Dean Romig]

Look in your Parker Gun Identification & Serialization books on Page 45 in the chart under "WIDTH", guns with frame size 1 and greater see column F, "width across bolsters".

[Bill Murphy]

Dean has it. It is the frame size. Look at the weights of those guns. The 12 gauge guns are very heavy, indicating maybe a #3 frame, which is a 2 1/2 in Parker shop language. Chuck, what does Dean win? By the way, for those of you that don't own a Serialization Book, the same information is on page 527 of The Parker Story. Good work, Dean. I spent five days in those books and couldn't figure it out.

[wayne goerres]

wouldn't be a DAC amount

[Dean Romig]

That's what I thought until I found the chart in the ID & Ser book. Now I'm convinced it is the width of the bolsters according to the chart and the other specs on the guns.

[paul stafford jr]

it may be the length of choke

[paul stafford jr]

it may be why we see so many 30 in. barrels cut down to 28 in , if you cut off 2 in. you go from full to impv. cyl. ,just a guess.

[Brian Dudley]

Chuck,

There is info in the stock books about Drams of Shot unsed in patterning.
Please refer to page 866 of TPS. It shows a photo of a near full stock book page from 1928. unfourtunately the top neader columns are not in the photo, but it does go all the way to the side. It shows a column with a date in it even ferther than the one you mention. But, it shows the same fractional number after patterning info. In this case, mostly 2-1/2 and 3. But, on this page all of the letters do have "dr." or drs. written after it.

The couple other examples of stock book pages in TPS are photocopies, just like the ones you use, which cut off those last columns. Page 866 is the only actual Photo of a full page in TPS.

Also,

See this attached photo of a stock book from 1913. I took this photo while I was at Remington. It is the one stock book that is on display in their museum. This shows the column headers. The column that you are referring to is labeled "Remarks" in this book. And they same info we speal of is listed here as well. With "Drs" after it. And it looks like they note that 7/8 oz of shot was used in most cases (in a few going as high as 1-1/4 oz) right before the drams of powder.

30839

The 1928 example in TPS also shows the oz. of shot and drams. And also those dates. One above that info and then another date with a large "X". Looks like there was a variation in header titles from 1913 to 1928.

[Dean Romig]

xxx edited out

[Brian Dudley]

WAIT A MIN... !!!!

I noticed something else when looking at the photo I have of the 1913 stock book from Remington.

Later stock books used a column just after the grade to record frame size. The first ones were hand written and the even later ones used rubber stamps for the frame size. The 1913 example does not have a column next to grade for frame size. However... they list frame size in the final column under the "Remarks" column along with the shot size and drams of powder, but above that info in the row.

See in this cropped down photo of that page, that the top row actual says "Frame", and then the other rows following just list the number. In the first many examples they are 0 frame guns in 20g. as shown by the bore size a few columns before.
But... Look about 3/4 of the way down when it gets to three rows for 12 bore guns. It lists 2-3/8 as the frame size???

30841

What is up with that method of recording the frame size? In this 1913 example 2-3/8, no doubt means 2 frame. But why the 3/8?

[Dave Suponski]

Very interesting stuff here. So can someone define the frame sizes as they correlate to our commonly used 0,1,1 1/2,2 etc.?

[Brian Dudley]

Hard to tell from the example I showed since only 20 and only a few 12g guns are listed.

I just checked my photos of the other page from that same book and it is the same deal. All 20g guns with only two 12g labeled the same way. As 2-3/8 frame size.
They were making a lot of 0 frame 20s that week.

In the days of hand written frame sizes in actual frame size columns (around 1928), I was able to confirm in the research for my article on the Hayes Prototype Trojan that sizes written as 1/2 were actually 1-1/2. But this earlier frame size oddity does not make much sense at all.

Chuck,
Are you able to maybe take a tally of what you see by way of those fractional number markings and how they correlate to the bore size. However, we are talking about 1881 as compared to 1913. So no doubt there may have been some differences.

[Bill Murphy]

Dave, Dean and Bill clarified that in earlier posts. Charts on page 45 in the Serialization Book and page 527 in The Parker Story correlates the inches width of bolsters to frame size. The 2 1/2 at the factory was a #3 frame stamped on the gun, and so on. Brian, it makes sense if we realize that the later books use the sizes actually stamped on the gun and the earlier books identify frames in inches and fractions of inches.

[Dean Romig]

Once again..... look at the chart in the ID & Ser. book on page 45 re: Column F 'width across the bolsters' for frame size 2 is 2 3/" as I spoke of in my earlier post.

[Brian Dudley]

Ok. I see now. So now chuck can add frame size to letters.

[Dean Romig]

Its a curious thing that we generally measure the distance between firing pins centers in discovering the frame size but rarely, if ever, refer to other dimensions of the gun. Possibly there is a difference in this measurement between a 1-frame 16 and a 0-frame 16.... I sispect so without looking at the chart again.

[Brian Dudley]

Also, why would they mark an 0 frame as 0 but the others as the bolster measurements?
And... they were marking the locking lugs with the common 0, 1, 1-1/2, 2 etc... So why would they record them differently in the book?

[edgarspencer]

By process of elimination, I don't believe the numbers are DAH, as guns of that period were almost always close to 3" and more. I also don't think it's loads, because they were usually 2 3/4 Dram Equivalent or greater.
I have to believe Dean is correct. I only have one 12 bore hammer gun, and it is a 1 frame, measuring 2 1/4" across the breach face. The column which shows, what I assume are gun weights, matches guns one would assume were heavier, i.e. 12 30" 12, 32" 10, 30 ", 10, 32". It would make sense that a 10 bore with 32" barrels, would be heavier, and logic would suggest they were on larger framed receivers.

[Dave Suponski]

I think I will save this discussion to my files. Right now I'm going to warm up a 2 1/4"gun at the skeet field......:)

[wayne goerres]

I have an interesting thought. You could start a new thread.and have members measure across the balls and submit it along with the serial no and the frame size if so marked. Then someone with the serialization books could take the serial no match it to the ones in the book and see if that measurement corresponds to the no's in the book. Soon you would build a data base and confirm deans theory. Then you could possible use that information to determine frame size on guns that are not marked. Just a thought

[Chuck Bishop]

Right now, I'm leaning towards that number/fraction being the width across the breach. This should also be the width across the bolsters. Every so often there is extra info to the right of the number/fraction and I can make out the abbreviation for barrels (Bbl).

Brian, in the example of a stock book page in TPS, that's from 1923 and the page I scanned is from 1880 so they may have changed as to what was put in each column. I do agree that what you see is dram equivalent. But notice that 12ga's were at 3dr and 16ga's were 2 1/2. Parker recommended 3dr for 12ga's and 2 3/4 to 3 dr for 16ga's.

In looking at a lot of stock book pages, the most common number/fraction found is 2 3/8 which would be a 2 frame. 2 frames were the most common for 12ga back then and also used sometimes for the 10ga. 2 1/4 would be a 1 frame, 2 3/8 would be a 2 frame (most commonly found in my scan), 2 12 for a 3 frame, and 2 5/8 for a size 4 frame.

S/N's 16985 to 18282 in stock book #6 are the only examples found with these numbers/fractions. I'll have Larry Frey measure across the bolsters on his hammer gun and see if correlates to what is found in the stock book. If anyone has a hammer gun in those S/N ranges, measure the width across the bolsters and let me know.

One other thing, did they make shells back in those days that correlate to those numbers/fractions? Did they make 2 1/2, 2 3/4, 2 1/4 2 5/8 dram shells???

[Chuck Bishop]

Brian, here is the problem with adding that info in letters. They are only found in the S/N range of 16985 to 18282 in stock book #6. For some reason, whoever copied that book, starting at 16985 they loaded the stock book biased to the left which gave those numbers. Usually, the right end got chopped off after the total weight. By biasing the book to the left, they excluded the first column which gives the barrel steel and grade, example Dam3. Now if I am doing a research letter and only have the stock book in that S/N range, I can't tell what the grade or barrel steel that particular gun had. Therefore, I can't do a letter on that gun.

Hopefully some day, we'll get those stock books and try and recopy them.

[Larry Frey]

Below is a letter I recently received from Chuck with a note asking me to measure the chamber length to see if it matched the 2 3/8 he found while doing the letter. It did not, but after reading this thread and Dean's thoughts on frame size I checked the gun and sure enough the gun is a two frame with 1 1/8" between the firing pins and 2 3/8" across the breech face. If I was a betting man my bet is Dean got it right.:bowdown:

Hello Mr. Frey,

Parker shotgun, serial number 18127, was ordered by H.T. Hudson of Portland OR in December of 1881 and shipped on December 7, 1881. The order was placed by Dexter W. Parker. According to Parker Bros. Order Book No. 10, it was a Quality D, Lifter Action Hammer Gun, 12-gauge. It featured Damascus steel barrels with a length of 30 inches.

The price was $125.00.

According to Parker Bros. Stock Book No. 6, the stock configuration was a pistol grip and its specifications were: Length of Pull: 14 ¼”, Drop at Heel: 2 5/8”, Weight: 8 pounds. The chokes were patterned RH 140 and LH 140 pellets of size 8 shot in a 24” circle at 45 yards.

[Dave Suponski]

Don't know if this will help. But I just measured two of my hammerguns. Grade 2 16 gauge lifter serial 20121 0 frame is 2.060 across the breech and my 12 gauge top lever 1 frame serial number 26145 is 2.210 across the breech

[Robert Rambler]

Chuck, Parker hammer gun #15901, #2 frame 10ga, measures 2 3/8 across the bolsters.
#17895, #3 frame 10ga measures 2 1/2 across the bolsters.
# 9848 #2 frame 10ga measures 2 3/8 across the bolsters.
17895 might be in your book. I think your conclusion is correct, indicates frame size.

[Chuck Bishop]

Thanks for that information Robert. It pretty much answers the question of what those numbers/fractions represent.

I was hoping someone would post dimensions of a 10ga on a 3 frame. Your S/N 17985 shows in the stock book as 2 1/2 so it correlates. Your 10 ga S/N 9848 and 15901, although not in the S/N's that have that info, being 2 3/8 would make them a size 2 frame and we know Parker made many 10 gauges on the size 2 frame.

I'm pretty sure the mystery has been solved.

Thanks everyone!

[Wayne Owens]

Serial number 17150 is a 10 gauge 3 frame gun with a 2 1/2" dimension across the bolsters.

[Robert Rambler]

Chuck, You switched numbers. It's 17895, not 17985. It is a 3 frame 10ga and measures 2 1/2. I also have 51092, 3 frame 10ga, measures 2 1/2 as well.:) I agree mystery solved.

[Dave Suponski]

Chuck, What does the stock book say about o frame guns?

[Brian Dudley]

The 1913 example, at least, lists 0 frames simply as "0". That seems to be the oddity in all of this.

[Dean Romig]

I measure 2 1/16" on all of my 16 gauge 0-frame hammer guns.

[Bill Murphy]

There has been a lot of discussion trying to disprove Dean's conclusion. To answer Brian's question, the "inches" frame size disignation was used because factory workers were selecting frames to build individual guns. Frames were not marked as to frame size. The easiest way for workers to select the proper frame was with the "inches" reference. For those still in doubt, reference the discussions in prior threads where order book references to the "2 1/2 frame" were put together with actual #3 frame guns. I own one such gun and order book copy, and have seen the order book references for others. If Chuck would like to post a reference to such an order, check the order for gun #125,757, a 12 gauge #3 frame two barrel DH.

[Brian Dudley]

I don't doubt it at all. Especially since I provided a photo of a stock book page where that info is clearly labeled as Frame Size.

It is just interesting information. We are always learning thins as to how these guns were made.

[Bill Murphy]

According to recent posts, some are still not convinced. I hope Chuck provides the reference to #125,757 in the order book. I have already paid for a letter on this gun so Chuck should be free to share the information.

[Chuck Bishop]

Here is the information on Bill's gun.

Hello Mr. Murphy:

Parker shotgun, serial number 125757, was ordered by Charles L. Bush in Mount Clair, NJ on January 25, 1904, and shipped on April 14, 1904. According to Parker Bros. Order Book No. 62 it was a DH hammerless, 12-gauge on the “2 ½ frame”. It featured Damascus steel barrels with a length of 32 and 28 inches. Its stock configuration was a capped pistol grip and a dark stock was specified. According to Parker Bros. Stock Book No. 45, its specifications were: Length of Pull: 14”, Drop at Heel: 3 3/8”, and Weight: 8 pounds and 7 ounces 32 inch and 8 pounds 4 ounces for the 28 inch. The order specified the chokes in the 32 inch barrels at RH close and LH close and the 28 inch barrels at RH cyl and LH mod. The price was $100.00 plus $50.00 for the extra set of barrels.

According to Order Book No. 65, the gun was returned on November 15, 1904 by The Charles Parker Company in New York, NY to “put in new cocking hook”. There was no charge. According to Order Book No. 80, the gun was returned on March 11, 1910 by The Charles Parker Company to “replace top lever spring (.75) and clean and repair locks ($1.50)”.

[Bill Murphy]

Thanks, Chuck. This is a good example of the factory designation in inches (2 1/2) of a gun with a #3 frame. This is also an example of a guy who knew how to order a shotgun. I almost didn't buy this gun, traded a Smith and Wesson 38-44 for it.

[Chuck Bishop]

Bill, at first I wasn't sure what you were referring to as far as the 2 1/2 frame. It would have been clearer if Parker would have put the inches symbol in the order book (2 1/2") but they didn't. Frame sizes as stamped on the barrel lug were not in inches but could be converted to inches using the table found in the Serialization Book or the stock book. Parker used whole numbers for the frame size except in later years when the 1/2 frame was introduced.

Just one more piece of the Parker puzzle solved.

[Bill Murphy]

Chuck, like you, I have never seen the frame size referred to in inches in a Parker Brothers order or stock book. It is always referred to simply as a 2 1/2 frame with no mention of inches.

[Bill Murphy]

Chuck, like you, I have never seen the frame size referred to in inches in a Parker Brothers order or stock book. It is always referred to simply as a 2 1/2 frame with no mention of inches. I have never seen a reference to what we think of as a frame size in a Parker Brothers order, like a 1 or 1 1/2.