G 16/30

[Bruce Day]

For those interested:

Purchased new in 1885 by a pioneer Mormon family in Provo, Utah and taken north to a new settlement in southern British Columbia, where it remained in the family until recently.

[edgarspencer]

I wonder if the gun was ordered unchecked in keeping with the Mormon's simplistic life style, but that wouldn't explain why it was ordered as a grade 2 instead of a lesser grade. Then again, John Browning was a devout Mormon, and was known to have had high grade guns. Interesting, Thanks Bruce.

[Mills Morrison]

Very cool! Great condition for its age too.

[Eldon Goddard]

Mr. Day can you give the family name? I would find it very interesting to know. But I understand if you can not.

[Dean Romig]

Bruce, does it have the lightening cuts on the water tables?

[Bruce Day]

Eldon: www.jhhuscroft.com. I understand the family emigrated from Green River, Utah to Creston, BC. Having been in Green River, Utah, I have empathy. While Green River has its own desert beauty, Creston is more like Northern Europe and offers more opportunities for agriculture and forestry.

Dean: no. The gun weighs 6/14.

My intention is to have Dale Edmonds re-brown the barrels and Brian Board and I refinish the stock using Brian's Timberluxe finish, which he sells here. I'll show cleaning the locks. I'll provide photos step by step and add to this thread. Forum viewers may follow along if interested.

[Dean Romig]

From what I can see, I wouldn't touch those barrels..... just my HO.

[Rich Anderson]

Bruce i have the identical twin to your gun. I'll look at the serial number and see how close they are. My gun is an O frame without the lightening cuts also. Dale redid the barrels for me and they are spectacular. My gun came from the deep south from a gentalman who used it for Quail hunting and it shows the useage of time. The butt plate is very worn.

[Angel Cruz]

Nice one Bruce. I have 46048. Mine has a flying duck on the bottom.

[Rich Anderson]

My gun is 46095 very close to Angels and not to far from Bruce's. They were probably all made in the same year then disspersed around the country to customers. Now three guns produced in the same year so long ago belong to people who know each other by way of the PGCA.

[Dean Romig]

All three within a range of less than 200 serial no's.

[Mills Morrison]

Looking forward to following this project

[Bruce Day]

So here are some detailed photos.

Issues as I see them:

1. Locks need to be cleaned of dried gunk. Rust on hammer spring needs to be removed. No need to dissemble the locks. There are no mechanical problems.

2. Stock gouges on both sides need to be steamed and raised. Crack in wrist and tiny crack at rear of one lockplate need to be glued. Oil soaking at bottom corners of head need to be pulled out. Dried oil in lockplate recess needs to be sprayed out.

3. Topcoat of finish needs to be applied after cracks, oil soaking and gouges repaired. Scrub off any hand oil and dirt on the grip. The wood will not be sanded or otherwise taken to bare wood.

4. Barrels have been cleaned so many times, probably with metal polish, that the Damascus pattern is not as distinct as it could be and the rib inscription is almost polished out. An Iowa engraver will chase the lettering then Dale will re-brown the barrels. They have no dents, unusual for many old guns.

5. The barrels still lock tight against the standing breach, so no metal work on the hook will be needed.

All in all, an easy job without altering the gun, substantial repairs or costly re-work.

[Dean Romig]

Bruce, judging by how clean the barrels look in your new pictures, do you have an opinion as to whether the barrels may have been previously refinished?

[Bruce Day]

In my opinion, this gun has never been to a gunsmith, for better or for too many times, worse. The barrels just look like they have been hand cleaned and hand polished many times by an owner who used , not abused, his guns, and cleaned them. The bores are shiny, original diameter, with some frosting near the chokes and chambers as one would expect from a well used gun in the days before shot cups.

Bores are
Right: .665, constriction .022
Left: .668, constriction . 041, typical upland game chokes for the day.

Chambers are the old black powder brass shotshell chambers which I measure at 2 5/8" to the step.

I do not think a gunsmith ever tinkered with the bores nor are the chokes reamed out.

[Dean Romig]

Very nice! Lady Luck was smiling on you!

[edgarspencer]

Rich, the gun I bought from you is 48795, with lightening pockets.
Bruce, was the grade 2 gun referred to "G" prior to the introduction of the hammerless frame? TPS isn't clear, but I don't think so.

[Bruce Day]

Bruce, was the grade 2 gun referred to "G" prior to the introduction of the hammerless frame? TPS isn't clear, but I don't think so.

Parker Bros 1882 Catalog:

[Rich Anderson]

When did Parker start implementing the lightening cuts? I have a 16ga lifter that I'm sure has them but I'll need to check.

[Dean Romig]

I just disassembled a 20 ga. lifter with serial no. 10165.

And a 16 ga. lifter with serial no. 23243.

Both have lightening cuts.

[Bruce Day]

So we know this gun was special order only at an extra $15, plus $80 for the base gun, for a total of $95, a lot of money in 1885. Why it is uncheckered is unknown, and not in the gun's order records.

Following are photos of the appropriate level of disassembly .

Several matter are apparent, and I'll be over explanatory for Parker people so that novices might be helped.

Note the SN on most parts including the trigger guard bow and stock inletted channel. That is a factory mark and if not there, they are probably not factory.

External hammer Parkers are easier to disassemble than internal hammer Parkers.

I was able to pull out very little oil from the stock head using a hair dryer. Because of this I conclude there is little oil soaking and no need to immerse the head in a solvent. Nothing is soft, I cannot dig a fingernail into the wood, everything is solid. There is a tiny crack at the end of the right lock, turns out it is a surface crack only....I'll put glue on it and leave it alone. I was able to get out less oil than expected.

There are two cracks on the grip , one on each side emanating from the internal step in the frame tang inletted channel. I can't get these to spread open, they do not extend laterally across the channel, so I 'll simply glue these on each side without trying to dig out the crack line, and let it go at that.

Of some puzzlement are the locks. Look at the sear arms, the half round pegs that extend laterally and contact the top of each trigger block. The left sear arm is considerably worn. The trigger felt normal, the hammer locked fine, but the left sear arm is worn although normally the right gets more use. I think I'll just leave it alone but watch for inadvertent doubling.

The rest of the frame components are fine, photos are shown, I'm not going to completely disassemble them, and they are sufficiently cleaned and ready to be put back together.

[Mills Morrison]

Was it originally uncheckered or has the checkering worn off?

[edgarspencer]

Parker Bros 1882 Catalog:Thanks for that Bruce. I wonder how long the policy was held that 8, 16 & 20 guns were only special order.

I just disassembled a 20 ga. lifter with serial no. 10165.

And a 16 ga. lifter with serial no. 23243.

Both have lightening cuts.
Are you parting them out because you've run out of room for these. You really are a bum, ya know.

What is the highest known serial number of an 0 frame with cuts?
Also, it would be great to find two guns, close in SN, where one has them, and the other does NOT, and then see if the order book information suggests that the customer may have made the decision whether to have the gun built either way.

[Bruce Day]

Occasional examples of uncheckered Parkers can be found in both hammer and hammerless eras, although uncheckered Parkers are more common in lifter action guns.

Uncheckered Parkers are common in lifter actions, uncommon in top action hammer guns and rare in hammerless ones.

I have never seen an originally checkered Parker with severely worn checkering that did not have some remnant of checkering left . Sanding off checkering will also always leave a depressed surface that is particularly noticeable on the forend.

[Rich Anderson]

Angel our guns are very close together does yours have the lightening cuts? Does anyone know if it (the lightening cuts) was a special order. I believe my lifter is in the 13000 serial number range and has the cuts.

[Angel Cruz]

Rich, mine does not have the lightening cuts.

[Richard Dow]

Great find Bruce.

[Dean Romig]

Lightening cuts were not an option for special order, however, if a 16 or 20 gauge gun were ordered to be "light", or some other adjective with that meaning, Parker Bros. would most likely machine those cuts in the water table for the weight reduction specified. I believe 16 and 20 gauge guns of this description must have been relatively common and were probably kept in stock for this reason.... No, I have seen no evidence of this being done but I have letters on three of mine which were ordered and shipped within only a few weeks of the order date.

I have never seen lightening cuts on a 12 or 10 gauge Parker... has anybody seen an example of this?

[edgarspencer]

These guns are a pleasure to own and shoot, but there are so many variables, It's a little difficult for me to make any assumptions about Parker's thinking. We've been talking about 0 frame guns, but I assume there were also 1 frame 16ga. guns. Also, there were Grade 1 guns in 16ga, so were there the same lightened vs unlightened examples? I know there were grade 0 guns with lightened receivers, since I had one, now in Dean's care, but that one is a lifter.
I wish someone could determine why one gun may have been lightened and another not. Was it Parker's decision, or customer ordered. Are there sufficient records, either from the order book or stock books to give us a hint?
There are two guns out there that I may be able to buy (one or the other, but probably not both) One has 28" barrels, and the other has 30" barrels. Oddly, the 30" barrels have a lighter unstruck weight than my 26" gun, and, no, my 26" is not bobbed.
Questions, Questions.

[Dean Romig]

Edgar, I also have or have had three Lam-1 16 gauge T/A hammer guns on the 0-frame with the lightening cuts.

[Bruce Day]

Great find Bruce.

Thanks Dick, but it looks like I have been posting these pictures on the wrong thread so I'll just give up and maybe do a Parker Pages article and let it go at that.

[edgarspencer]

we must have been typing at the same time.

My 26" gun , from order book 22, was, according to our overworked PGCA letter writer, ordered on December 8th, 1887, and shipped on August 14th, 1887. Hmmm. Assuming it was the reverse, that's 4 months between order and shipment, but maybe it might have been December 1886, shipped August 1887. I'll have to raise this (delicately) with Mr CB.
Stock book says 6 pounds, 13 ounces, but no mention of 'light weight'.

[edgarspencer]

it looks like I have been posting these pictures on the wrong thread so I'll just give up and maybe do a Parker Pages article and let it go at that.
Not sure what you mean by that

[David Holes]

54790 is a 14 ga. TL and it has lighting cuts. It was built as a light weight for sure.

[edgarspencer]

54790 is a 14 ga. TL and it has lighting cuts. It was built as a light weight for sure.

Do you know what frame size it was built on David?

[David Holes]

Edgar, It is a 0 frame with a weight of 3/7

[edgarspencer]

Those barrels must have finished at a tad lighter than my 16ga barrels, though a 14 is only a tiny bit larger than a 16. Rare gun for sure. It's too bad it's so difficult to find ammo. I have some, but certainly not enough that I could get to use it as often as I use my 16. What is the total weight of the gun?

[Dean Romig]

Bruce, if you're still monitoring this thread, the pictures you posted of the internals certainly indicate a nicely cared for gun... it is exceptionally clean inside. Very nice indeed.

[Rich Anderson]

Edgar I have a top lever hammergun in 16ga on a #1 frame. If memory serves it's a grade 1 with 32 inch bbls, no lightening cuts.

[Rick Losey]

If memory serves it's a grade 1 with 32 inch bbls, no lightening cuts.


too far down in the pile to dig out and look?

:rotf: :rotf: :rotf: :corn:

[Chuck Bishop]

David, the order book for your 14ga only gives a total weight of between 6 1/2 to 6 3/4 pounds. I've never seen anything in the order books about lightening cuts however occasionally there is a "LT" which I take it means make the gun as light as possible for the gauge ordered.

[Rich Anderson]

Rick your close. It was at the gunsmith as I had 3/8th taken off the stock. It has been restocked with a straight grip which I love but it was a tad to high. I have the original PG stock & forarm. It's an 0 grade #1 frme no lightening cuts.

[David Holes]

I remembered the weight under 7 lbs, but the gun never had original wood on it since I have had it. It has been my most challenging project to get back together. Brian has the wood and I need to get barrels refinished yet. I am currently calling it the money pit. I sure hope the joy of finishing it will be worth all the effort.

[Rich Anderson]

currently calling it the money pit. I sure hope the joy of finishing it will be worth all the effort.

DAvid I'm sure you will find it worth the effort. i refurbished a GH 16 in fact I posted about it and called it The Money Pit. It was well worth the effort and expense to put this back in service, in fact I have added a set of 32 inch barrels to the gun.

[charlie cleveland]

i enjoy seeing old beat up guns restored to there former glory..i know that sometimes there past fixing and this saddens my heart so i give a big applause to all that try to save these old guns...charlie

[Mills Morrison]

Here here, Charlie.

[Mills Morrison]

I am a sucker for old beat up guns, although Bruce's is not really that beat up.

[Marc Retallack]

I share the same affliction Mills. Funny thing is, they always seem to be 10 gauges. Currently I have a 30" Quality 2 LC Smith 10ga and a Remington 1894 BE 10ga w/ 32" C grade Damascus barrels waiting for their turns to get back in action. I'm slowly digging out from under medical bills so it will be some time till they get their chance.

[Mills Morrison]

Hope you feel better Mark and the medical bills get behind you soon. I have 3 out for repair right now and two are ones most people would have parted out.

[Richard Dow]

Bull: Your on the perfect thread Bruce. Please go to it.

[Marc Retallack]

Thanks Mills. Best of luck with the three you're waiting on.

[Bruce Day]

Bull: Your on the perfect thread Bruce. Please go to it.

Dick, I didn't want to hijack this thread so I put the restoration of the G hammer 16 in the Restoration section for those interested.

[Eric Baker]

Nice gun Bruce, 16 gauges are my favorite. Regarding guns with close serial numbers and lightened vs. unlightened frames my post on 8/28/2012, page 7 of the hammer guns thread has photos of my two 16 ga toplever guns, Grade 2 sn 55427 and Grade 0 sn 55437. Both are built on 0 frames with 28" barrels. 55427 doesn't have the lightened receiver and the order book doesn't specify weight, it weighs 7lbs 4oz. 55437 has the lightened receiver and very light barrels, the order book specified a weight of 6 1/2 lbs. The stock book for this prouction run of 16ga guns is missing.