A Bit of a Poll

[Matt Valinsky]

To set the stage as it were. Your gun safes are full, you have every Parker you ever wanted and thought you might ever want. So, not wanting to give up the thrill of the chase, your considering which other gunmaker to hoard examples of their trade.

The field has been narrowed down to Fox, Lefever and L.C. Smith. Using all the ingredients that are important to you, the collector/hunter/shooter, how would you rate the three to make you choose one over the other?

Thought this would be interesting to see how other folks thougth about those gunmakers.

[Harold Lee Pickens]

Lefever, fox, Smith in that order. Dont really have a reason, although fewer Lefevers made. I have 6 Foxes and 2 Lefevers. Like Fox, Lefever went thru alot of hands, so one could really sub-specialize. Dont have any Smith's, although I did trade one on a GH 16 Parker.

[Mark Ouellette]

I have them all!

LC Smith made the most vintage guns although a high percentage of those were 0 Grade or after 1912 the Field Grade. Buy a Smith because you love it as I do a few of mine. They are a sidelock gun and while not exactly like their English cousins, many do handle well. Don't believe me, just ask any of our Parker Team shooters as they face off against the squad of LC Smith shooters!

Lefevers changed a lot during production. If you don't believe me ask Brad Bachelder of any competent doublegun smith. Different ejector systems, different top lever systems, and so on. What year was that Lefever made? Well then it should be either this or that... But hey, I love the half dozen Lefevers that I own because each is unique in its own way!

Then there are the AH Fox guns. Ansley Herman Fox was a famous pigeon and later trap shooter. He designed his guns as if he were to use each and every one in the pigeon ring! I love my Fox guns from the 20 gauge Sterlingworth to the big HE Super Foxes!

Then there are those fine English guns... Somebody please stop me!

Happiness is a fine dog at my side and a fine double in my hands!
Mark

[Harold Lee Pickens]

Yep, Mark said it better than me--and shoots alot better than me too!!

[Mark Ouellette]

Yep, Mark said it better than me--and shoots alot better than me too!!

Nope, I do not shoot better that you. I just shoot bigger guns... :rotf:

Mark

[CraigThompson]

I have some of each as well. Smith and Lefever would tie for first just because both can be had in the 10 gauge and dare I say it the 8 gauge . Now with that being said I have several nice old Fox guns that I like especially my 1930 A Grade 16 gauge .

[charlie cleveland]

it would be hard for me to choose between a lefever and a lc smith...i like and own both guns..would like to have a big fox or a little 20 but for some reason have never owned one...but i would probablt take a 8 ga lefever over a lc smith 8 and i do nt know why...charlie

[CraigThompson]

it would be hard for me to choose between a lefever and a lc smith...i like and own both guns..would like to have a big fox or a little 20 but for some reason have never owned one...but i would probablt take a 8 ga lefever over a lc smith 8 and i do nt know why...charlie

I'd take whichever was in better shape I think and hope I could steal the other later :rotf:

[Milton Starr]

Charlie id love to have a westley Richards droplock 8 ga, they still build them in fact they still build shotguns up to a sxs 4 ga ! over 100k us dollars of course . Imagine though the options if you had the money .
Ive always liked W.Richards anyhow

[Dave Suponski]

A lefever 7D or 8E boxlock in 16 gauge thank you very much.

[chris dawe]

One word ...Lefever.

Pick apart a Lefever and a Smith and tell me with all honesty ,do a Smith come even close :corn:

[Milton Starr]

Chris I never read up on lefever , are they highly thought of like the parkers and smiths ? im more familiar with brit guns

[chris dawe]

Chris I never read up on lefever , are they highly thought of like the parkers and smiths ? im more familiar with brit guns

In my opinion it's Lefevers from Syracuse era that really shine ,Dan's crossbolt gun that he made on his own last going off is nice as well.

Almost every wear point on a graded Lefever was owner adjustable ,granted some of it was probably not needed,but the first time I seen the the adjustable ball joint in the frame to compensate for looseness on face I was sold ...you only have to Tig a few hooks or turn some new pins and smoke in a few barrels to see the value in that design ,

Search the engraving styles on these guns ,very nice stuff there as well . The checkering is really well done on all grades

The one thing I don't like is restocking one ,on the first one years ago I ruined two blanks ,luckily the third was the charm ,I'm in no way ashamed to say it (although what in my mind was ruined was likely me being anal :banghead:)
that being said there's a great feeling of accomplishment when I finish one

I put them in the same league as Parker,a much different gun obviously but like Parker made in all sorts of dizzying array's ,and subtle nuances that keep collectors guessing.

[Mills Morrison]

My favorites are Parker, Smith and Fox, in that order. I don't own a Lefever (yet) so can't comment. I enjoy them all and sort of feel it unfair to compare them against each other. They are American classics

[Daryl Corona]

Fox. IMHO and in the opinion of a well known and highly respected gunsmith I trust, the Foxes are the most dependable mechanically even over the beloved Parker. To me a Fox handles as well as a Parker and that's why I like them.

[Harold Lee Pickens]

Daryl, I was always told that there are few people who know how to work on a Fox because they never break down or need repaired.

[Daryl Corona]

Bingo!

[Bill Murphy]

Milton, if you have "never read up on the Lefever shotgun", you are a bit late to the party. You can catch up by finding some low grade gems and writing some checks. Good luck. Buy Elliott's book to give yourself a bit of a leg up.

[Rich Anderson]

Graded guns, small bores Fox (I know where a nice CE 16 is) LeFever (I know where a nice F grade 20 is) LC Smith I don't know where any small bores are.

[Michael Murphy]

A high grade Lefever (Sure, in my dreams), Fox with L.C. Smith third. I have a couple of Foxes and like them very much. Dependable, well balanced and attractive, even in Sterlingworth guise.

[Bill Murphy]

Lefever, Lindner Daly, Fox, pre 1913 Smith, in that order.

[Mike Shepherd]

In descending order of preference - Parker, Fox, Ithaca, Syarcuse Lefevers, Iver Johnson Skeeters, Winchester 21s.

[Casey O'Connor]

I REALLY like the Fox guns.

[wayne goerres]

I disassembled my first AH Fox today and I was amazed with the complexity. Its a fantastic designe.

[Mills Morrison]

I want to get some more Foxes in my safe. They are great guns

[wayne goerres]

Mine will be on its way to Brian Monday for a wood refinish.

[Rich Anderson]

I think my next gun will be a graded Fox small bore, perhaps a nice 20 guage.

[Daryl Corona]

I think my next gun will be a graded Fox small bore, perhaps a nice 20 guage.


Now wait a minute, I'm confused. I thought we were'nt buying any more guns?:vconfused:

[Rich Anderson]

I never said when my next gun would be certainly not right now. I have a deal I'm working on work wise that if it goes through my funding goals will be set then I can start pondering another gun.

[Daryl Corona]

And ponder you will.:bowdown:

[Casey O'Connor]

Feed, feed, feed the addiction. Perhaps one of our musically inclined brethren could whip up a tune for us.

[Craig Larter]

Fox, Parker, LC Smith. In the Fox family, Super Foxes, XE's and early style C's. In the Parker family 12ga damascus pre-1906 ( before Fox) #2 or #3 frame 30" waterfowl type guns.
In the Elsie family 10 bore 30" guns.

[wayne goerres]

Even thow I like my parkers and foxes theres just something about those English doubles.

[Rich Anderson]

I must agree Wayne. Last year at Hausmanns I bought a lovely boxlock 20 ga Charles Boswell. It has 28 inch damascuss barrels, ejectors, straight grip and weigh just a tad over 5lbs. It's a little lighter than a H&H 20 w/26 inch bbls also purchased at Hausmanns the year befor.

[Dean Romig]

Parkers, preferably in the smaller gauges and straight grips with composite barrels. Small bore straight grip pre-war Francotte's ring my chimes too... as do straight grip Foxes, David Mckay Browns. Oh, and double triggers on all please.

[Milton Starr]

I never said when my next gun would be certainly not right now. I have a deal I'm working on work wise that if it goes through my funding goals will be set then I can start pondering another gun.

Sounds about like me .
I just finished looking at my tax returns so when that comes back i found a nice 10 ga remington i want to get my hands on :bowdown: hope to have a respectable collection in 2 year time

[wayne goerres]

English guns seem to way slightly less than their American counter parts when all things are equal such as barrel lenth, over all lenth and guage. at least all mine do.

[Milton Starr]

English guns seem to way slightly less than their American counter parts when all things are equal such as barrel lenth, over all lenth and guage. at least all mine do.

Wayne my C.G Bonehill weighs 10 lbs 2 oz its a 10 bore of course 32" Damascus . My next double will be either a rem 1894 or a Belgium guild gun .
Weight though hasn't never been a factor when I buy a gun then again im a young person :p .

[wayne goerres]

A little extra weight dosnt hurt when it comes to recoil. My scott barely tips the scale at 9 lbs and has extra full and extra full chokes. I shoot light loads (1oz) and you still have no problem telling that you pulled the triggers.

[Rick Losey]

English guns seem to way slightly less than their American counter parts when all things are equal such as barrel lenth, over all lenth and guage. at least all mine do.

with my three 10 bores

one English - an ounce or two over ten pounds - 32"

two Parkers (both #2 frames) nine and just shy of nine and a half - 30 and 32"


I expect it will vary a pound or two for any 10 bore guns on either side of the pond

this may be true for 12's - the British love light 12's

[CraigThompson]

Even thow I like my parkers and foxes theres just something about those English doubles.

I grew up shooting British and American doubles . And for years I held British stuff in higher esteem . I have since learned the error of my ways . Although I gotta say for sentimental reasons I still hold my 1881 W&C Scott hammerless 10 gauge in the highest regard of any of my shotguns .

That 10 gauge will most likely be buried with me as I have no related male heirs to leave it to .

[Milton Starr]

I grew up shooting British and American doubles . And for years I held British stuff in higher esteem . I have since learned the error of my ways . Although I gotta say for sentimental reasons I still hold my 1881 W&C Scott hammerless 10 gauge in the highest regard of any of my shotguns .

That 10 gauge will most likely be buried with me as I have no related male heirs to leave it to .

Ill call you my Pa if you leave it to me :rotf:

On the 10 bores it seams like you could get either regular barrels or heavy walled barrels . theres a "cheap" wc scott 8 bore shotgn on gun broker right now . think since it was blued it must have lost most of its value . I love my 10 bores regardless of make. This bonehill is my 4th 10 bore but first sxs .

[Rich Anderson]

My Charles Boswell 20 is fast becoming my favorite Grouse gun. I like it better than the H&H 20:shock: The wood on the H&H is much much nicer however:rotf:

[CraigThompson]

Ill call you my Pa if you leave it to me :rotf:

On the 10 bores it seams like you could get either regular barrels or heavy walled barrels . theres a "cheap" wc scott 8 bore shotgn on gun broker right now . think since it was blued it must have lost most of its value . I love my 10 bores regardless of make. This bonehill is my 4th 10 bore but first sxs .

Thanks for the offer . But ...... no thanks .

[Milton Starr]

My Charles Boswell 20 is fast becoming my favorite Grouse gun. I like it better than the H&H 20:shock: The wood on the H&H is much much nicer however:rotf:

I shot a purdey 20 ga sidelock that I didn't like . the triggers were angled to the right , and im left handed . The owner he loved it though 24k gold is too flashy for me :p.

Craig cant blame you I want to be buried with most of my guns I own at that time or at least my favorite .

[CraigThompson]

Craig cant blame you I want to be buried with most of my guns I own at that time or at least my favorite .


My maternal grandfather owned that Scott for 50-60 years before I got it after his death . So I don't want it to leave the family and if that means going in the ground with me then so be it .

[Steve McCarty]

I don't have as many guns as do some of you guys. But I have two nice Parkers, a GH and an SBT. I also have a very fine Lefever I grade gun made in 1901 when Old Dan was still in the business of making guns. She a faux sidelock is plain as mud. The "I" grade was the one you'd find in the local hardware store. She was refurbished by a pro, but not brought back to new. Here she is:http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa23/GermVMA211/Gun%20Stuff/Lefevershotgun006.jpg (http://s200.photobucket.com/user/GermVMA211/media/Gun%20Stuff/Lefevershotgun006.jpg.html)

http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa23/GermVMA211/Gun%20Stuff/Lefevershotgun002.jpg (http://s200.photobucket.com/user/GermVMA211/media/Gun%20Stuff/Lefevershotgun002.jpg.html)

This gun is a 12 with 30" barrels, F&M. Long and thin and quick to swing. These Lefevers are very nice shooting guns. Yes, they changed as time passed, but these early guns are my favorites. I'd like to have a G grade damascus gun.

When I consider buying a new Parker to shoot an I pick up this Lefever I figure that I already have a wonderful, fast, classic hunting gun.

[Steve McCarty]

For the past five or six years I have been drooling over Trojan Parkers. However about 15 years ago I stumbled across this Fox Sterlingworth in a local gun store. It came with its original Leg-0-mutton case. Fox guns are indeed fine guns and while a bit heavier than my Lefever it is a great gun. Also F&M with 30 inch tubes. http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa23/GermVMA211/Shotguns/Shotguns015.jpg (http://s200.photobucket.com/user/GermVMA211/media/Shotguns/Shotguns015.jpg.html)

I love Parker shotguns as we all do, but a good Lefever and/or Fox are also wonderful shotguns and of a similar era. I've got the letter on the Fox. She is a 1928 gun.

[Steve McCarty]

Question: Is the Parker a better gun than a Fox? Lots of differences of course. But that darn Fox is a wonderful gun.

[CraigThompson]

Question: Is the Parker a better gun than a Fox? Lots of differences of course. But that darn Fox is a wonderful gun.

That's like asking what's the better car Porsche BMW or a Benz . Or like asking what's the better female blonde ,redhead of brunette . Life's to short to debate such questions .:rotf:

[Grantham Forester]

My bird hunting pal has an Ithaca 12 ejector gun with one trigger that his uncle bought new in 1940--He shoots it far better on game birds than his Browning 20 Citori- and twice he let me shoot it for a day afield while he used the Citori- Isn't the Ithaca company history as far back into the 19th. century as the Smith, LeFever and the Parker??

[Steve McCarty]

My bird hunting pal has an Ithaca 12 ejector gun with one trigger that his uncle bought new in 1940--He shoots it far better on game birds than his Browning 20 Citori- and twice he let me shoot it for a day afield while he used the Citori- Isn't the Ithaca company history as far back into the 19th. century as the Smith, LeFever and the Parker??

I do not know when Ithaca started making guns, but they do go way back. I think the Flues gun was contemporary with the Trogan, which means it was with the Sterlingworth and some Lefevers too. I guess I could Google the company and find out.

I do know that Ithaca has been in and out of business several, I believe three, times and are today back in biz making exclusively the Model 37 and they are NOT cheap.

[wayne goerres]

They make more than the model 37. They also make an over and under and a 1911 45 acp. You are right about the prices. They are expensive.

[Bill Zachow]

Charlie, if you are looking for 8 gauge Lefevers or Smiths, you have a long look ahead. Both makes were manufactured in very small numbers when it came to 8 gauges. Smiths around 30 and Lefevers about the same. Much easier to find a Parker. I have never seen a Smith 8 for real, only pictures. I have handled a Lefever 8 that was for sale, but some idiot had removed about 6" of barrels. I live in Lefever country and at one time had 2 Lefever great grand children working in the company where I was employed. Both top notch machinists. Must run in the blood.

[Grantham Forester]

Thank you all, gentlemen, but as I noticed the Ithaca doubles did not show in any of the "wish lists" posted here, I am still wondering why so?

[Thomas Garver]

Gentlemen, please go to the L.C. Smith website and click on FAQs. Dr. Drew Hause gives a brief history on the beginnings of the W.H. Baker and L.C. Smith guns and the formation of the Ithaca Gun Co.
Regards, Tom