Opinions, please.

[John Truitt]

What is everyones feelings/ thoughts concerning the use of subgauge tube inserts for side by side competitions? I mean like briley tube sets, gauge mates, etc.

Is it an unfair advantage?, a none issue, should be allowed or not?

for example they are not allowed for competition use at the Vintagers or Southern events.

[Jeff Christie]

What is the rationale behind not allowing tube sets?

[John Truitt]

I believe it is a gentlemanly type thing. Meaning shoot the gun as it was manufactured.

Also I can understand guys who have spent several thousands of dollars to obtain an original configured gun not wanting so one to be able to step in with a gun that is not true to the gauge of the event being shoot.

I would really like to hear from as many of us as possible.

[FRANK HALSEY]

I think that we need to use only the gauge the gun was made for. It makes the shoot more real. Anyone can get sub tubes for any gun but the shoot is for the gauge the gun was made for. People have spent thousands of dollars to buy the proper gauges to shoot in these events and I think tubes should not be allowed. I bring down over 10 different guns for the S x S shoot because of different gauges and chokes, (all my guns are hard choked), so it does not seem fair to let someone to shoot everything with just one gun. Just my thoughts, Frank

[David Dwyer]

Frank
I agree with you 100%,. I have spent many years and a considerable amount of money to collect an "original" group of Parkers to shoot in 28ga to 10 ga hammer and hammerless events. I enjoy shooting a gage specific event with a gun in that gage. I understand the desire to have one gun that you really enjoy, shoot well, and want to use gage mates to shoot all the events. That is not how the game has been played . Sorry John:bowdown:
David

[Mike.Smith]

I'm on the fence with this one. I purchased a set of gauge mates at the Parker Silent Auction two years ago, but have yet to use them to this day. The only time I thought about using them was at Backwoods during the Fall Southern. I wanted to shoot the small bore course because the folks I was shooting with were going out to do so. I had 20ga inserts for my 16ga gun, but was told that I couldn't compete with the gun in this configuration. For me, it was about shooting with my friends that afternoon, not about trying to win the 20ga event. I can understand arguments from both sides. As you said John, there are people who have spent a lifetime collecting guns and spending the money to acquire a diverse collection. Not all of us will be able to compete in the .410 Hammer Gun competition, because we just don't have that gun in our collection. The purist in me agrees that competitions should be shot with guns in the original configuration. On the other hand, as someone who is relatively new to collecting vintage doubles, and someone who hasn't had the opportunity (or the funds :) ) to acquire guns of every caliber (yet), it keeps someone like me from competing in more events, which means less competition and less revenue for the event sponsors. There are not may people our age who are interested in keeping up this tradition of shooting vintage doubles, and I'd hate to see any limitations on competitions for this reason. If there is an unfair advantage to shooting a gun with gauge mates versus the original configuration, then that is another story.

Mike

[Mark Ouellette]

Let's keep everything even in competition. Use the same gauge shells as the gun is chambered.

[Larry Frey]

I agree with Frank and Dave as well but not because of the amount of money spent on a group of guns. It's more the fact that someone who shoots one gun all the time will more than likely have an advantage and shoot better than the guy that is switching from an 8# 12 gage with 32" barrels one minute to a 5.5# 410 with 26" tubes the next. I see no reason to change an established rule for vintage SxS shoots and make them more like an NSCA shoot.

[Ed Blake]

Allowing tube sets would enable more shooters to become involved with sub gauge shooting. A Parker 28 or .410 is beyond the budget of many folks.

[John Truitt]

Keep em coming guys. This is the kind of talk I was hoping for.

NO reason to apologize Mr Dwyer. I have yet to establish an opinion.

[Bill Murphy]

Keeping things the way they are promotes interest in guns, gun collecting, and gun trading. Allowing tubes in vintage gun competition will run the present competitors out of the game. Tubed competition style guns are an unfair advantage.

[John Truitt]

how about a gun that has been permanently rechambered down one gauge.
(IE: 10 bore rechambered permanently to a 12)

[Ed Blake]

Or a 16 to a 20?

[Chris_Caile]

Tube if the gun was originally 16g or smaller. No everyone can afford the smaller gauge Parkers...

[Mark Ouellette]

how about a gun that has been permanently rechambered down one gauge.
(IE: 10 bore rechambered permanently to a 12)

I say NO. We collect, shoot, compete, and hunt with vintage guns. A rechambered gun is not acceptable in a gauge specific competition. Hey, is it a 10 gauge because if left the factory as that or a 12 gauge because someone butchered a fine 10 gauge?

Why not allow any gauge so long as the shot payload is the same?

[John Truitt]

Mark,

As a way of resurrecting a gun that otherwise would not be usable.

I personally understand the concerns with tube sets but I don't see why rechambering a gun, to resurrect it, should be an issue. That should be no unfair advantage to any shooter.
IMO by doing so you have just reintroduced a gun to the world, stimulated the economy by paying for the work ( I think I am saying this correctly)

[John Truitt]

Why not allow any gauge so long as the shot payload is the same?[/QUOTE]

I don't understand this comment Mark?

[Mills Morrison]

I prefer keeping it original with no tubes, but am not offended if others feel differently.

I may bring my DH 10 with its orphan 12 gauge barrels and hope that is ok. The barrels are as they left the factory, just with a different receiver.

[Mark Ouellette]

Why not allow any gauge so long as the shot payload is the same?

I don't understand this comment Mark?[/QUOTE]

The comment was sarcastic.

An ounce and an eighth of shot is the same no matter the bore size. Isn't that correct? Not always.

I shoot a lot of 10 gauges at the SxS events. If one can move a big gun the larger bore can be very forgiving. To prepare for those shoots I spend much time handloading those big shells one at a time. I take pride in my work. Oh, the WalMart special promotional 12 gauge shells shoot better in my 10 (with Gauge Mate adapters) than they do in a 12 but I reframe from that in vintage shoots.

If the rules for a 10 gauge shoot allowed any Tom, Dick, or Harry to compete using a borrowed gun and 12 gauge AA's they bough at WalMart then why would I bother to enter? Something about the "vintage" of the shoot would be lost.

But then why are Parker Reproduction guns not allowed in competition? Would allowing those take something from the collectors who mortgaged the farm to buy a vintage 28 gauge Parker. Yup, probably so.

I could go on with why not old pumps and pre-war Auto 5's? I like them all but...

Vintage is vintage. Let's keep it that way.

Mark

[John Truitt]

How about our controversial 10/12 being shot in the 12 ga event.

Is that an issue?

There is a some interesting info about this conversion written by Cyril Adams from Texas.
He is one very involved with "Vintage Guns".

I am in no way offended by any ones comments and in no way am trying to offend any one else.

I am just trying to get a feel for what is out there.

[Mark Ouellette]

How about our controversial 10/12 being shot in the 12 ga event.

Is that an issue?

Gee, I guess not as long as I may use a 10 gauge with 12 gauge adapters in the same shoot. Heck I'll even use a little gum to stick the adapters in the chambers. :rotf:

Rules get confusing if they are not clear to the most casual of observers.

[Chris Travinski]

A guy shooting with a set of tubes doesn't bother me any. At the vintage events I have attended the demeanor of the typical shoot has been geared more toward hanging out and having fun than keeping score. I have always had the thought in the back of my mind that a 100 year old Parker is going to pattern way better than any set of tubes a guy could throw into his gun anyway!
I respect values and opinions of the experienced collectors who have spent a lifetime searching for the perfect array of guns, but it's also important to appeal to the new collector as well. Where do I fit? Novice collector maybe, my favorite guns are all Full X Full and I make due with what I have.
A final note, I would rather see a guy with a set of tubes in gun than see him have the chokes hogged out. When that gun comes back to the market, you may wish it still had the full choke!! I'm OK with the rules, but certainly wouldn't mind if they changed.

[William Davis]

I say keep it like it is. Its true sub gauge Parker's are expensive however lesser makers are available at prices near tube set cost. I have a very shoot able 28 inch Hunter arms Hunter Special 20 bought just for the sub gauge event for about what a Briley set sells for

May move up to a Parker if I see the right gun but the original rule is not a barrier to entry.

Bill

[Mark Ouellette]

That's the spirit Bill! There are plenty of sub-gauge vintage guns that need a good caretaker. I confess that my safe holds no small bore Parkers. There are however some small Foxes and Lefevers, each in 16 and 20!

[John Truitt]

Thanks for the comments guys.

Keep em coming.

[Dean Romig]

I'm on the fence with this one. I purchased a set of gauge mates at the Parker Silent Auction two years ago, but have yet to use them to this day. The only time I thought about using them was at Backwoods during the Fall Southern. I wanted to shoot the small bore course because the folks I was shooting with were going out to do so. I had 20ga inserts for my 16ga gun, but was told that I couldn't compete with the gun in this configuration. For me, it was about shooting with my friends that afternoon, not about trying to win the 20ga event.

I shoot a lot of events just as a social shooting event - not for score necessarily, as I don't generally shoot better than 60%, so I just toss my scorecard in the trash when I'm done. I'm certain they will let you shoot subgauge tubes or inserts if your card is boldly marker NOT FOR SCORE.

I can understand arguments from both sides. As you said John, there are people who have spent a lifetime collecting guns and spending the money to acquire a diverse collection. Not all of us will be able to compete in the .410 Hammer Gun competition, because we just don't have that gun in our collection. The purist in me agrees that competitions should be shot with guns in the original configuration. On the other hand, as someone who is relatively new to collecting vintage doubles, and someone who hasn't had the opportunity (or the funds :) ) to acquire guns of every caliber (yet), it keeps someone like me from competing in more events, which means less competition and less revenue for the event sponsors. There are not may people our age who are interested in keeping up this tradition of shooting vintage doubles, and I'd hate to see any limitations on competitions for this reason. If there is an unfair advantage to shooting a gun with gauge mates versus the original configuration, then that is another story.

I too, believe it is simply a matter of "Shoot the classic gun - in competition - in the configuration it left the factory in." I certainly wouldn't consider sub-gauging the gun to be cheating or anything of the sort but just not "good form".

Mike, I didn't single out your post for any other reason than it was the first one that contained some real thought-provoking topics. I'll keep reading the thread for more. - Dean

Mike


.....

[Dean Romig]

how about a gun that has been permanently rechambered down one gauge.
(IE: 10 bore rechambered permanently to a 12)


I wonder how complicated that might become.... An inspector with a set of inspection tools and charts much like is done at car racing events to be sure everyone is sticking to the rules. How would an inspector determine if a gun were "permanently" rechambered?

[Dean Romig]

I prefer keeping it original with no tubes, but am not offended if others feel differently.

I may bring my DH 10 with its orphan 12 gauge barrels and hope that is ok. The barrels are as they left the factory, just with a different receiver.


In my opinion, that would be perfectly okay.

[Ed Blake]

I have a 0-grade 16 hammer gun on a O-frame I had sleeved to a 32" 20 gauge. When I bought the gun from a member here the barrels were heavily pitted and unsafe to use. Now it has a new lease on life and is a great dove/clays gun. Brad Batchelder did the work. I'm not trying to fool anyone with it but it is the most fun gun I own and I shoot it in every sub-gauge match I can.

[Mills Morrison]

I have seen Ed's gun and it is quite nice. I think any ban should stop at Briley tubes and gauge mates

[Dean Romig]

I think any ban should stop at Briley tubes and gauge mates


Bore or chamber inserts?? I agree completely.


Oh, and screw-in chokes too!

[Mills Morrison]

Screw in chokes ruin a perfectly good excuse to get another gun to change chokes

[John Truitt]

Dean,

I don't know how you regulate/ enforce the rules. But those guns are out there and being used. Ask Pete Lester. He had to compete against a very good shooter using a British 10 ga rechambered to 12 ga.( I am sorry I cannot find his thread. He mentions the gun and shooter with respect and no complaints. I am using this as a reference that the guns are out there in vintage shoots)

there are several shooters who are in favor of this type of "modification". Look up Cyril Adams. Many trap shooters are having custom 12 ga guns made with 775 bores.

I am curious to see the opinions out there on this. I have considered a project for myself involving a 20 ga hammer gun. But before spending big bucks want to see how it would be perceived, as you say, be in good form or not. (I like the way you stated that BTW :))

[Mills Morrison]

If the project is well done like Ed's, I would see no problem with it.

The original Parker barrel makers were pretty skilled at working with bores and chokes to maximize performance. Note the recent article in DGJ about some 12 gauges with 11 gauge bores. Finding someone today who is also skilled with barrels seems to me to be no problem and probably what the old gun deserves

[charlie cleveland]

interesting discusion you boys got here...charlie

[Chris Travinski]

It becomes a slippery slope when you start changing the rules to allow certain modifications and not others, unfortunately the choices are probably going to come down to all or nothing. If we start picking apart our friends and competitors guns to see if they are sleeved, re-chambered, over bored etc., there will be more grumpy faces and less happy ones.

[John Truitt]

Chris,

I agree.

There is some discussion of some new shoots that will be coming up in later 2014 that would allow tube sets/ etc.

I see the plus and minuses of each. IMO we have to obey the rule listed for each shoot and respect those rules. However no one has addressed in those rules a gun that is permanently rechambered. All other rules have been directed towards removable devices.

I think we all stand in agreement regarding tube sets/ gauge mates/ etc.

[Dave Suponski]

Just my two cents worth here....I feel shooters should be required to use a gun as it was originally configured for each gauge event. If I wanted to be using race guns I would hang around with the over/under crowd.

But I do think that Parker Reproductions should be allowed in vintage events. After all they are configured the same as originals. But....fixed choke guns only.

I think an original Parker might have a slight advantage here over the Repro's because of original Parker chokes.

[Jeff Christie]

What about a vintage gun with extra barrel(s)?

[Dean Romig]

I think extra barrels of a different gauge or a gun that has been rebarreled would be perfectly acceptable.

[Gary Carmichael Sr]

Interesting discusion fellows, I am not a shooter but a collector, but will give my opinion on the subject, The gun used in competition should be as originally configured at Parker, Gary

[David Dwyer]

There are some excellent competitive shooters in our vintage SXS world. It seems most of them shoot heavy, long barreled 12 ga guns . I greatly respect and admire these shooters and enjoy watching them break targets. I do not necessarily want to shoot against them in sub gage events by allowing them to temporarily insert a "gage mate" in their 12 gage and have an unfair advantage . This is an amateur sport and I do not want to see it dominated by the pros. I have a good friend that is deadly with his long barreled 12, but I can kick his ass in 20ga and 28ga and greatly enjoy doing so! The light small gage guns are a different game and I want to keep it that way. JMHO
David

[Mike.Smith]

Lots of great comments here, but after reading David's last post, it highlights the unfair advantage I was looking for. I too travel to these events with sometimes 9 or 10 guns in tow, and switching between them does often affect my shooting. Going from a heavy long barreled 12 to a light and whippy 20ga is much different than shooting the same heavy gun with gauge mates. I can see where this would give the competitive shooter who practices repetition with the same gun an unfair advantage in one of these events.

I do agree though that two barrel sets, or guns that have been re-barreld or permanently re-chambered to a different guage should also be allowed to compete.

Mike

[Dean Romig]

Ditto Mike's comments.

[John Truitt]

Thanks Mike,

That's what I was looking for.

I totally agree about tube sets and the like.

I like to restore/ resurrect guns that otherwise were deemed junkers.

This usually involved monblocking a gun. I have enough 12 gauges so I have moved on to subgauges.

My current thought for a project will be a set of 34" 20 gauges barrels for my C grade hammer gun.

The 34" 28 ga and 410 are already in the works.

[Pete Lester]

Dean,

I don't know how you regulate/ enforce the rules. But those guns are out there and being used. Ask Pete Lester. He had to compete against a very good shooter using a British 10 ga rechambered to 12 ga.( I am sorry I cannot find his thread. He mentions the gun and shooter with respect and no complaints. I am using this as a reference that the guns are out there in vintage shoots)


You have a good memory John. That was a couple of years ago. It was a british double gun with 10ga bores and 12ga chambers. I think was I using my GHE Skeet that day or possibly a favored VH, both 12's, either way I was not out gunned that day I was just plain out shot. The winning shooter was Mal MacGregor and when he is on his game it doesn't matter what he is shooting.

[John Truitt]

I would like to hear from Pete Lester if he would be willing to respond.

He made reference to a competition up north where a shooter was using a british 10 bore that was rechambered to a 12 ga. I think he even included some pictures at the time.

I would greatly appreciate his opinion and inputs on this topic.


Again thanks for all the opinions and thoughts guys.

Thanks Pete I wasn't fast enough on the key board.

[Pete Lester]

John, Mal often shoots a Purdey hammer pigeon gun with very tight chokes. On the skeet field he consistently breaks 24 and 25's. He prefers full choke for both skeet and sporting clays. That day was the first time he used that gun and he broke a 95x100 if I remember correctly. I was runner up with an 83 I think. All targets were within the range of a skeet choke, if anyone had a handicap it was Mal. He is a gifted shooter and nice guy to share a beer and pizza with after the shoot.

I am a firm believer it is hard to handicap a good shooter. Back in the 90's when hand fed traps were still prevalent in ATA trap shooting, the old Winchester traps were set in the 2 hole for soft angles. The ATA made a rule one year for 3 hole targets with the idea it would help even the competition. Singles and Handicap, nothing changed, the leader board was still filled with same usual names with the same great scores.

To digress a bit. Back in the 70's there was a Can-Am sponsored moto cross racer named Jimmy Ellis. I was at a motocross track in Maine and he was there. They put Jimmy 100 yards behind the starting line of the 250cc Pro class, facing backwards with a dead engine. He still managed to catch the field and win the race.

It's hard to beat God given talent whether it's in shotgun sports or racing.

[David Dwyer]

I agree that a gun that has been re-barreled, sleeved, or a new barrel fitted to the gun is fine as long as that barrel is true to the gage event. I do not think gluing new chambers to reduce the gage is "cricket". This is a fun game and no one wants "gage police ,just honor among shooters. I know it is being done but not so it is currently a problem. We all know the rule is out there and if we chose to skirt it that is an individual choice. If I see someone with gage mates etc I will just not shoot with them. If a new event comes up in 2014 that allows that I would have to decide to participate or not-probably not
David

[Dean Romig]

The winning shooter was Mal MacGregor and when he is on his game it doesn't matter what he is shooting.



.....or who he is shooting against!

[Rich Anderson]

John are you referring to the rule in the challenge that dissalowes sub guage tubes?

I'm not in favor of allowing tube sets to reduce guage for the reasons mentiond previously. A 5.5 lb 28 handels differently than a 8lb 12 and so it should.

I believe the guns should be original as they left the factory. NO modifications. I see guns at the challenge that are Parker or Smith in frame only. The barrels are new, forcing cones lengthened to reduce recoil, ported barrels etc. These are supposed to be vintage shoots with vintage guns not vintage frames with modern upgrades.

I think the PGCA/LCS challenge has some other challenges as well but thats a different topic.

[Bill Murphy]

Rich, tubes are allowed at the Challenge, for composite barrelled guns only. It's not much of an advantage in that event, since it's a "heads up" competition. Small gauge competitions are a different situation altogether. I won the .410 event at the first Southern Side by Side with a tubed 20 gauge Damascus Parker when it was legal. The rules were wisely changed and it kept me from doing it again. I agree that tubed guns in small gauge events are an unfair advantage and violate the spirit of the event. So far, "Truit Specials" are legal, but probably still violate the spirit of the event.

[John Truitt]

Murphy,

What does "Truitt Specials" mean.

I think you are way out of line.

check your PMs we should talk!!!!

[John Truitt]

COB,

I was not thinking of the Challenge Event.

I was thinking of the subgauge events on the sporting courses at these events.

My original post/ question was brought up after multiple conversations with some folks who want to start up/ grow a shoot. They were interested in allowing tube sets so to include more shooters. I raised the question to get a feeling on how our group felt about this.

[Dean Romig]

In my opinion, if you want to start up a new event you can run it by any set of rules you choose to use or devise. "The more the merrier" is a worthy base for starting a new shoot.

[Daryl Corona]

John, great thread. I started shooting these vintage events because I was bored with the registered target events where everyone shot the same guns, be they K-80's, Beretta's or whatever. The guns meant nothing, only the final scores. To me the gun is everything and the vintage events brought out some killer SxS's that one might never see or get a chance to shoot. I now shoot for fun, with all originally configured guns. My opinion is shoot what you want, tubes sets, choke tubes but if we are to stay true to the vintage tradition, then only original guns, NO modifications. If anyone wants to experience the true vintage tradition, then please join us at Drake's. We shoot for fun, no scorecards, lots of harassment, some pretty nice guns and we come away totally relaxed. It's always fun watching Mark O. blow confetti out of those 10's and crush targets.

[FRANK HALSEY]

So, the truth is out on how Dr. John shots soooo well. It is his " Truitt Special". I knew he was beating me by "cheating". JUST KIDDING. John is a very good shooter and does not need to "cheat" but I will use that as an excuse. Frank

[Mills Morrison]

I think a Truitt special is any gun in John's hands, be it a Red Ryder or his Parker hammer gun with the 34" barrels. What I have seen and heard of the hammer gun is all above board.

From what I have seen and heard, the 34" hammer gun has new barrels that are like a set of barrels could have been made "back in the day". Nothing wrong with that from where I stand.

[Dean Romig]

A true "Straight-up Guy"



.

[David Dwyer]

Its that guy on his right, Dave "The Champ" Fjelline you have to watch out for!!! They do not come better than "Humble John" Truitt, as a person, gentleman, a friend or shooter.
David

[Bill Murphy]

I corresponded with Dr. Truitt by PM indicating that the term "Truitt Special" is a compliment and refers to a big long heavy gun that shoots shells legal in the small gauge classes but without insert tubes. I will stand by my statement that these attempts at the win do violate the spirit of the game. It will cause those who compete with "little" original guns to vacate the competition. I think Daryl and I are on the fence about when the big guns should be allowed. Obviously, the Vintager sanctioned shoots should be a place where they should be discouraged, since the vintage original guns are what they want to see. The Southern Side by Side is another type of shoot altogether. No one much dresses up Vintager style and no one much pays dues to Ray Poudret. Maybe at shoots such as this, the rules should allow rebarrelled big guns in the small gauge events, which they do, and maybe they should go back to allowing tubed guns, which they once did but no longer do. The Northeast Shoot is in the hands of Ernie Hauseman and could go either way. I applaud Dr. Truitt for taking it upon himself to build such great guns and every time I see him, I ask to inspect his work. I am no newcomer to NSCA competition, have a very low membership card number and competed for several years from the beginning. There are small gauge events at almost every shoot and a side by side event at every important shoot. The big guns have every opportunity to be used at these events. I would hate to be deprived of the privilege of seeing John Truitt in action with his great guns, but the rules may catch up with him, as they did with me when I won the .410 at the Southern.

[John Truitt]

Bill,

And I am going to stand by my thoughts that I am not violating any rules or the spirit of the shoot.
They are posted and clear and I am in no way breaking them.

I have nothing to hide but also no reason to justify my decisions in guns to you or anyone else for that mater.

You Sir have no right to point fingers at me.

[Rich Anderson]

I don't think takeing a 12 ga framed gun and fitting 34 inch 410 barrels to it makes it a 410 or a 20, 28 ect.

[John Truitt]

I do like 20 ga's on #1 frames.

the 28 ga gun will be on a O frame

the 410 on a OO frame

They just happen to be planned to have 34" barrels

but I am in no way putting multi barrel sets together on a 12 ga frame (that would be quit the endeavor)

Each will be its own gun.

Rich, (not taking your comment personal, please don't take mine as such)

But I disagree. If Parker were open today. They would build what the customer asks for. Obviously in the past they did some very interesting things. Point in case a 12 ga on a #6 frame. Is that not a 12 ga gun?
I really wish they still were open. It would be a lot easier to get what I want. Instead I am confined to current available materials/ methods/ gun smiths/ and the like. I think you would understand since you seem to be having some custom guns built for yourself. I have really enjoyed all of my project guns. It is very rewarding having something come together and function that you envisioned.

I respect your opinion and all of the others. But what I don't appreciate is anyone making a comment that I am in some way violating anything, cheating, or trying to do something to run away shooters participants/ etc. That is crossing the line with me. Period.

[Daryl Corona]

John, they sound really nice. I truly love my 20ga, 1frame w/32" barrels and of course the 16ga. you so kindly sold me in the same configuration. Man, a 28ga. w/34" tubes would be the bomb! Keep us posted on their progress and post some pics if you can.

[John Truitt]

Thanks Daryl,

You and I have discussed our like for long barreled guns many times.

Word has it that Parker made a matched pair of 34" 410s for some brothers out west ( I think Washington State).
I think they were called the roman candles or something like that.

[Daryl Corona]

Well I guess the search goes on for those long smallbores. Have to hit the lottery for those .410's.

[Rich Anderson]

John I never said you have violated any rule. You may "build" anything you like. My opinion is that vintage shoots should be with vintage guns as they left the factory. You asked for opinions and thats mine.

The only "custom" Parker I have ever done is Gunner's Gun and the custom work only pertains to engraveing and stock work. It is still a VH 20 on an 0 frame with Parker barrels.

[John Truitt]

Rich,

I did not mean to imply you did. That was a blanket statement not directed at you.

And that's fair and I respect your opinion.

[Mark Ouellette]

Around the year 1900 weren't pigeon and trap guns limited to 8 lbs?

[John Truitt]

Mark

I believe you are correct. I don't know why they limited it. Maybe someone like Dave Noreen or someone else could give us info on why.

[Mark Ouellette]

I believe the heavier guns gave an advantage to those who could shoot them well.

[John Truitt]

I think it had more to do with shot loads/ dram equiv/ etc.
Just like they had eliminated the 10 bore from box bird shoots.
Not eliminating weight for handling characteristics.

[Mark Ouellette]

I think it had more to do with shot loads/ dram equiv/ etc.
Just like they had eliminated the 10 bore from box bird shoots.


Banned the 10 bore? How dare they! :rotf:

[Bill Murphy]

John, I hope you take back the statement you made about "pointing fingers at you". I am not doing that, I won't do that, and I haven't done that. I have made it clear that I respect your gun building and I am just clearing the air. Everyone knows about your guns and I don't need to point fingers. Please let me know that you really didn't mean what you said.

[Bill Murphy]

By the way, you don't have to go to Dave Noreen to learn that the eleven pound limit in the eighties was for handling characteristics, not shot load or drams of powder. The later eight pound limit was for the same reason. Nothing has changed in a hundred and twenty years. The heavy gun has the advantage on easy birds. The sactioning organizations stepped in to put an end to unfair advantages from rich guys and gun companies. End of story.

[Bill Murphy]

My eleven pound C Grade hammer gun, made for a Parker company shooter, was made to the exact specifications of the B Grade made for Fred Kimble, another company shooter. Several guns were made by Parker Brothers for other company shooters to the exact same specifications. They were uncommon guns, made to these specifications because they were better pigeon guns than the pigeon guns used by other competitors. No statement is made about this practice except that heavy guns are an advantage.

[John Truitt]

No Murphy,

I meant what I said just as you meant what you said.

IMO you made your point clear. I am making mine clear.

I am done with this. Do what you feel you must.

[Dean Romig]

Yes Mark and I believe that's why we see so many Parkers in 12 gauge with weights between 7 lb., 12 oz. and 7 lb., 15 oz. Very few were ordered to weigh 8 lb. even so as not to be disqualified by a judge with a 'not perfectly accurate' scale.

[Carl Brandt]

Gentlemen,

I don't know if my opinion will matter, or change anyone's opinion on the topic, regarding originality or suitability of guns shot in competition. It is just my opinion.

As to originality of specific Parker Guns: The proliferation of custom guns and subsequent modifications to originally manufactured guns, either by Parker or others, is a subject that can be debated to the end of time. I can see that Parker would make a gun to an individuals specification that could amount to just about any practicable combination of frame size, gauge, bore, barrel length, and weight. The specification of an individual may or may not be noted in surviving documention.

As to the configuration of restored Parker Guns: There are restored Parker guns out there that are obviously not done in the manner that would be expected of the factory. I personally own a gun that was in really bad shape and obviously modified by a trap shooter to include porting of the barrels. When I had this gun restored Turnbull I was told that this heinous modification could not be repaired. Who is to say that if Parker had received a request for this type of work on a custom gun wether they would have refused? I personally don't see this as a benefit to the shooter but others might disagree. As I stated up front, this just my opinion.

I would personally not like to be tasked with determing the originality of a Parker Gun, or any other gun, as suitable for competing in any particular shooting venue and I would not like to see the requirement of having letter documentation as a prerequisite to using any particular gun in competition.

[Dean Romig]

So Carl, can we presume that you and the other organizers would expect all entrants to do the 'honorable thing' insofar as how they each represent their own guns in competition?

[Michael Murphy]

I was a competitive Skeet shooter for many years and lived through the transition from 4 guns to four-barrel sets to tube inserts. The game attracted many more competitors in the small gauge events when there was the transition to tubes, because of the cost factor. One could, for about $1,000, compete in the 20-28-.410 events for a fraction of the cost required to buy three additional guns. Would the same happen, with side x sides? I personally doubt it because of the average age of competitors (old fogies, including myself) and the compulsive acquisitive nature, as regards shotguns, of the players.
I'm not in favor of the idea of tubes. But does that mean that the idea has no merit? I don't know, but if the number of small bore competitors were to double, would there be merit in the idea?

[Carl Brandt]

Dean, I can speak only for myself in this matter and in answer to your question, I believe that all decisions should be based on thoughtfull consideration and with honorable intentions.

[Ed Blake]

So Carl, can we presume that you and the other organizers would expect all entrants to do the 'honorable thing' insofar as how they each represent their own guns in competition?

Honorable thing? I'm not sure I understand your point Dean. The Challenge Cup does distinguish between composite and fluid steels for the Gaddy Trophy. Is there something else we have to declare now?

[Dean Romig]

Honorable thing? I'm not sure I understand your point Dean.


Hi Ed, "Honorable thing" insofar as how each competitor represents his gun in meeting prescribed qualifications for entry.

The Oscar Gaddy event never entered my mind because it would be plain to see if a competitor's gun had Damascus barrels... or not. Fluid steel barrels would be an automatic disqualifier.... just as gauge mates or tubes are in other classic shooting events.

[Bill Murphy]

Carl, as I mentioned earlier, the Challenge, being a heads up competition, is really not a place where too much in the way of restrictions should be considered. I think we are all happy with the way it is now. In fact, I don't see much harm or advantage if a guy shoots a gun tubed to 20 gauge, composite or not. By the way, thanks for your work on the Challenge and we hope you continue.

[Bill Murphy]

John Truitt, you asked for opinions and you got mine, no different, by the way, than what others have posted. I'm sorry you are offended just by my posts, but they are not meant to be offensive. My apologies if you saw them as something they are not.

[John Truitt]

Bill Murphy, thank you. All is well. Enough said.

[William Davis]

Would like some clarification if possable. Challenge Cup rules specifically allow sub gauge tube sets if the barrels are Damascus I don't see any equipment rules published for the Southern SxS itself.

Of course any organizer can rule however he likes on equipment. Challenge cup is run by the clubs Southern itself is not. Is there a set of equipment rules available for the Deep River and Backwoods events ?


William Davis

[Dean Romig]

Yes Mr. Davis - there are rules and they will appear in the Fall 2014 Issue of Parker Pages and I'm certain those in charge will post them here quite soon.

Regards, Dean

[David Dwyer]

William
Gage mates, etc ,are not allowed in the Fall Southern SXS. The gun shot must be in the Gage Parker Bros manufactured it in. Damascus guns are deemed safe if used with low pressure loads.
David

[William Davis]

I have a 20G Trojan just as it left the factory and own and shoot Damascus Parkers. Am looking at a 12 DH Damascus that may have barrels past saving. If so the options are Donor old barrel same gauge, Sleeve same gauge, or some sort of insert that would have to be in a smaller gauge

Wanted to know what events it could be used in with the various options. Looks like Challenge but not the Southern with anything but as shipped from the factory. If so considering the cost of the first two, it’s not worth trying to save the gun. Not a problem just wanted to know before buying.

William

[David Dwyer]

If you bring it back in the same gage you can shoot it in all the events. If you sleeve it to a smaller gage, you can shoot it but in handicapped events you do not receive the bonus birds. I do not know if you can shoot it in sub gage events but if the rules do not preclude that, it is strongly frowned upon.
David

[Larry Stauch]

Hell NO, no tube sets.

Go to any sporting clays event and try to shoot your 410 or 28 SxS against the guy with the 11 pound target gun with a set of full length tubes and see who wins that one. I think it should be about the gun, not the score that you can achieve with your best 12 gauge gun. Although I do understand it could be an affordability issue for some and an inconvenience for others, like myself, to ship several guns across the country to compete in an event, but my god can't we be true to something in the country.:nono:

[Mills Morrison]

My opinion is nothing that was not around when the Parkers were made.

[David Dwyer]

Larry
I agree completely. I can hold my own with an original small gage, light and whippy, Parker but not against some one with a sleeved 10 lb 2 frame 12ga. Those guns are not allowed at the Fall SXS at Backwoods and that is one of the many reasons I love that event. It also is 20 min from my home:bigbye:
David

[Mark Ouellette]

I shot the (clay) pigeon ring at Lapeer Michigan last Sunday with my 14 & 1/2 pound DH 8 gauge. To my knowledge had the high score of 22 of 25 targets. A big gun potentially with generate a big score. That's why long ago pigeon and trap guns were limited to a maximum weight of 8 pounds.

Mark

[charlie cleveland]

please explain why a gun that weighs more will do better on targets..charlie

[John Truitt]

Mills,

research auxillary rifle tube inserts/ barrel inserts made by Remington.

Tube sets are NOT new technology. The rifle sets have been around since 1870's or so.

I think it was the Auxillary Rifle barrel company or a name close to that.

There is also some talk of this topic on this forum in the past along with some photos.

[Mark Ouellette]

please explain why a gun that weighs more will do better on targets..charlie

Charlie,

A force in motion tends to stay in motion and a force at rest tends to stay at rest.

Simply stated, heavier guns swing better once moving and also dampen recoil.

Mark

[John Truitt]

David,

I was not aware there was a rule on gun weight restriction at the Fall Side by Side.

Please post us a copy of the rules that Rick is enforcing.

[Bill Holcombe]

I have never fired a SxS in competition so I have no actual dog in this hunt and the majority of you will own more parkers or whatever in your life then I will, but I will side with the no tubes, no gage mates, etc.

It is a question of playing the game the way it was meant to be played. Shooting with gauge mates etc in competition is like playing a round of golf with unlimited mulligans...its fun to goof off, but competitively whats the point.

[Eric Eis]

Ok here's my question, if it is ok to modify a Parker to shoot in the Fall or Spring shoot, why is it Repro's are not allowed, they are much closer to the originals then what you guys are talking about....:whistle: Just asking...

[Michael Murphy]

Eric - I didn't know that Parker Repros were not allowed in the Fall and Spring shoots.

Bill, I understand your sentiment, but a mulligan is a "Do Over". You don't get a second chance at a target, just because you use gauge mates. Probably a better golf analogy would be using a "wood' made of space age metal. Oh!, that's right, they do that now.
But they have outlawed the "belly" putter; which is basically what the current side by side rules do as a way of keeping new technology from giving an unfair advantage and maintaining the history of the game inact.

[John Truitt]

Repros are allowed in the Spring and Fall Shoots. Just not to be used in the Parker/ Smith Challenge Event. But yes they can be used in all of the other competitions.
I have been told Parker Repros were not allowed in the Challenge because of Smith not having an equivalent repro. Something to do with some new guns having the smith name/ etc.

There is very detailed info on "legal"/ acceptable guns for the Challenge Event and for the general Fall and Spring shoots.

Everyone is in agreement that tube sets/ removable chamber devices and the like are not acceptable.

I would suggest everyone read the rules so there is no confusion. I think they are still up on a sticky. If not it can be searched. I had a very good discussion with Bill Kempler today. He suggested anyone with questions on equipment to give him a call to clear up any misunderstandings.
I have a call in to Rick Hemingway. I hope to hear from him on Thursday.

[William Davis]

Did a search on "Southern Rules" lots on the Challenge cup, well documented. Nothing on the Southern itself.

Like to see something in print.

William

[John Truitt]

Mr Davis,

I agree with you I cant find the general rules for the Fall or Spring Southern competitions.

I will keep looking and post a link if I can find them. They used to be readily accessible.

[Sam Ogle]

In my humble opinion; tubes should not be allowed. The former opinions of fellows here are correct in that for targets, a heavier gun which would have never been hunted with, then fitted with tubes would be an unfair advantage versus someone who was shooting an original gun. I recognize that some live pigeon and target guns were very heavy, and those of us who shoot trap & skeet realize that a gun way to heavy to carry in the field works great for clay targets.
I have a 16 gauge Sauer & Sohn hammer gun from about 1865-1870 era with Leupold Bernard Damascus barrels, which, while beautiful on the outside; are too pitted to shoot. I will put 28 Gauge Briley tubes in it. However, I would not consider it original, nor would I expect to shoot it in a competition. (Oh, dear Lord, to be so good as to make that a problem.)
I have a 32" 12 gauge #2 framed Parker. I shoot it pretty well, but I would not want to be allowed to shoot it in a Vintager match with .410 tubes.

This thread has been a wonderful example of the quality conversations, and the richness of opinions the Parker community has to offer.

[John Truitt]

I just got off the phone with Rick Hemingway from Backwoods Quail Club.

There is no restriction on gun weight for any gun or gauge. Period!!

Both Rick and Bill agree that tube sets are not allowed for the sub gauge events. However Rick did say that it is permitted to use a chamber reducer/ or tube set in the big bore events. For example: a ten gauge gun with 12 ga tube set or chamber reducer but must be shot in the ten gauge event. Or a 12 ga gun with 16 ga tube set must be shot in the 12 ga event. (12/20 etc, etc)

Repros are allowed for the competitions ,all of them, except for the Challenge Events (Parker vs LC Smith)

[David Dwyer]

John
Thank you !
We now have the word
David

[Eric Eis]

Repros are allowed in the Spring and Fall Shoots. Just not to be used in the Parker/ Smith Challenge Event. But yes they can be used in all of the other competitions.
I have been told Parker Repros were not allowed in the Challenge because of Smith not having an equivalent repro. Something to do with some new guns having the smith name/ etc.

There is very detailed info on "legal"/ acceptable guns for the Challenge Event and for the general Fall and Spring shoots.

Everyone is in agreement that tube sets/ removable chamber devices and the like are not acceptable.

I would suggest everyone read the rules so there is no confusion. I think they are still up on a sticky. If not it can be searched. I had a very good discussion with Bill Kempler today. He suggested anyone with questions on equipment to give him a call to clear up any misunderstandings.
I have a call in to Rick Hemingway. I hope to hear from him on Thursday.

What I am saying is that you can use a modified (sometimes highly) Parker in the Parker/Smith challenge but not a Repro, why ? Sounds to me a simple question....:whistle:

[Michael Murphy]

John,
Thanks!
Mike

[John Truitt]

Opening Day,

Ask the board or whom ever it was involved with making the rules.

[Tom McCoy]

New Guy here....Why not start with an opinion? Always a sure way to win friends. :)

Why would anyone want to do anything that might provide an unfair advantage... i.e. "cheat"? Just to get a damn trophy? C'mon !!!!!
Should a vintage auto racer be allowed to install a modern engine and modern brakes and compete against those with 50+ year old technology?
WE should do this for the fun and comraderie of the competition. I prefer bragging rights over trophies. Hopefully no one feels the need to win a trophy to have a good time.

Hey, don't ask if you don't wanna know....

I hope to make the Southern SxS for the first time this year.

Tom
Atlanta
(Parker AND LC Smith owner)

[John Truitt]

Mr McCoy,

I encourage you to come to the Southern. Hek come to both the Fall and the Spring. You will have a grand time.

You are correct and will find after spending time with these folks that we are all very enthusiastic and passionate about our Parkers/Smiths/ etc.

I know many of the guys who have commented on this thread and I can say that from my experience not a single one of them would knowingly or blatantly cheat or do something against the rules.

Please come joins us. Please look for me. You are welcome to check out my guns and give them a go if you would like.

[Tom McCoy]

Hey John,
I am working on making it. I would say the wife is about 75% convinced... of course that included a bribe with a spa somewhere. The biggest hurdle will be that 4 letter word... WORK.
I'm sure its a great group, and will be a lot of fun. I couldn't resist throwing my opinion in, and it certainly seems to be the consensus. As you said, I doubt anyone would knowingly cheat, rather, they may not be aware of the "etiquette" of the competition.
I will definitely try to locate you, shake your hand, and buy the first cold beer that night.

Thanks for the Southern Hospitality!!

Tom
Atlanta
Deo Vindice

[Eric Eis]

Opening Day,

Ask the board or whom ever it was involved with making the rules.

Ok I am asking to whom ever it may concern: Why ?:rolleyes:

[Rich Anderson]

So you can use a gauge reducing device to take a 12 to a 16 for example but must shoot the gun in the 12ga event which is fine but I would ask why? If you want a 16ga load say 7/8th's just reduce your 12ga load accordingly. Simpler and less expensive than buying gauge mates or sub gauge tubes.

[John Truitt]

COB,

you are correct about reducing load, but what about the guy who has a very pitted barrel and for his own peace of mind wants to use a tube set to allow him to shoot the gun.
There are many reasons. Some we will understand some we may not.

These events should not be about trying to exclude shooters but about encouraging all who want to participate and getting them out there.

I recommend concerns /questions be directed to the shoot directors.

[David Dwyer]

Eric, Rich
Because those are the rules of the game. Y'all don't participate anyways so...
David

[Eric Eis]

Eric, Rich
Because those are the rules of the game. Y'all don't participate anyways so...
David

David, both Rich and I participated until last year, so I still ask why ? Heavy modified guns are ok, but not Repros, makes no sense. In previous years I have talked to guys that only had a Repro and wanted to shoot, but couldn't :eek:

[Rich Anderson]

Good point John I hadn't thought about the barrels being to rough to use.
I think a lot of people are making much to do about nothing.

[William Davis]

Gun I was looking at, untouched Damascus DH 12, had barrels too rough to save. Dents mostly but pitted deep too. Rest of the gun was restorable, thing about it stock drop was not too bad, could have been bent to suit me. I passed on it, no sense in putting more than a good one would cost into the gun & the cheap fix is not eligible to shoot.

Paradox is we Parker owners debate staying original when a Perazzi DC 12 is perfectly legal. Saw one at the Spring Southern, ordered to suit the owner, barrels chokes stock weight everything.

William

[Andy Humphriss]

I have shot many small gauge nsca events with sub gauge tubes until my lovely wife gave me a k-20 3gauge set for x mas, I think i will keep her! Nsca events are fun but in my opinion it's more about winning. The few side by side shoots i have shot was more about the enjoying vintage guns and like minded people. If you want to shoot small gauge guns at these events and can't afford an vintage small gage gun you can shoot a modern s x s and still enjoy shooting these events with out spending a bunch of money. It is my opinion the vintage gun events should be shot with guns as they were originally chambered.

[David Dwyer]

Andy
Thanks for expressing the vast majority of our feelings. I have shot a few NSCA events and it is ALL about moving up in class and winning, period. The SXS events is ALL about enjoying yourself with friends and shared interests. I have seen one of our "top guns" shoot a wining score and then not turn in his card because he felt he had won enough events. I fell that is what we are about:not just winning but also helping your friends also enjoy the shoot.
David

[Carvel Whaley]

I am not sure a how a modern small gauge gun is any more a vintage shotgun then sub-gauge tubes would be. If you are shooting for fun and friendship, either would be ok. If the idea is to keep everything "vintage" then I would agree that the guns should be just that. I just like to shoot and have fun, and I really enjoy the old, far more classy in my opinion , than most of the modern synthetic, machine made, guns of today. There are good arguments on both sides of this discussion but I doubt if everyone will ever agree on every thing. JMHO Carvel

[Mark Conrad]

What I am saying is that you can use a modified (sometimes highly) Parker in the Parker/Smith challenge but not a Repro, why ? Sounds to me a simple question....:whistle:

Eric, the reason why Repo's are not allowed is that L. C. Smith never made a repo. This came up when we finally agreed on the rules. This Smith boys felt it would have given Parker an advantage. There's your answer.

[Eric Eis]

Eric, the reason why Repo's are not allowed is that L. C. Smith never made a repo. This came up when we finally agreed on the rules. This Smith boys felt it would have given Parker an advantage. There's your answer.

No that's not an answer, there is nothing special about a Repo, now some of the tricked up "old" Parkers there is your advantage..:shock: By the way I shoot an old Parker, but it should be no reason to exclude a shooter that only has one gun and it's a Repo. There is no advantage so......:banghead:

[Bill Holcombe]

Forgive me, but that is an answer. It isn't an answer you like, but it is the answer and it is the factual reason for it. The LC Smith guys were opposed to Parker shooters using a repro because they perceived an advantage not available to Smith shooters because there are no smith repros. Their agreement to participate was contingent on reproductions not being allowed.

I don't know enough about repros to know if there would be such an advantage or not, but the fact remains that that is the reason for them not being allowed. I guess you could go to an LC forum and ask them what advantages they were worried about, but it was part of the agreement to the games.

[Eric Eis]

Forgive me, but that is an answer. It isn't an answer you like, but it is the answer and it is the factual reason for it. The LC Smith guys were opposed to Parker shooters using a repro because they perceived an advantage not available to Smith shooters because there are no smith repros. Their agreement to participate was contingent on reproductions not being allowed.

I don't know enough about repros to know if there would be such an advantage or not, but the fact remains that that is the reason for them not being allowed. I guess you could go to an LC forum and ask them what advantages they were worried about, but it was part of the agreement to the games.

Bill, there is no advantage to the Repos they are the same as the originals, not like the tricked out old Parkers. banghead::banghead::banghead:

[Bill Holcombe]

Well, apparently the LC Smith people disagree with you, regardless that is the reason, they(the Smith shooters) didn't want people using repro parkers because there were no repro smiths. This may be a simple advantage of numbers/availability of quality shooting guns I don't know, but that is the factual reason.

[Tom McCoy]

Do any of the Repros have removable chokes??

[Eric Eis]

Do any of the Repros have removable chokes??

Yes only the Sporting Clays model all of the rest were fixed chokes