Rare BHE .410 4/0-frame sighting

[Greg Baehman]

Saw a very rare, odd and unusual unfired BHE .410 Repro on the tiny 0000-frame at Winter Vegas being offered for sale by its original owner. The gun has 28" bbls., 3" chambers, choked M/F, single trigger, straight grip and beavertail forend.

This gun was unusual in two different ways:

1. There were very few 0000-frame Repros made in all grades and obviously even fewer made in the BHE grade. They are only very occasionally seen as their owners have them squirreled away.
2. This gun is ultra-unusual and extra-odd in that it is BHE grade throughout except it had typical DHE Repro engraving and was sans the single bead fences. It had B-grade wood, checkering, engraved barrel wedges and all the metal components-- watertable, forend and barrels were stamped BHE.

. . . rare, odd and unusual. I walked away shaking my head.

Another rare Repro seen was being offered by Larry Baer. An A-1 Special in-the-white 3 bbl. set in its factory O & L case. 28/28/.410 on a 00-frame. Reportedly the only one ever produced.

[Ken Hill]

Interesting. What prices were being asked for these guns.

[Greg Baehman]

$25K for the BHE and the A-1 Special was tagged at $35K.

[Rich Anderson]

I couldn't justify 25K for a BHE that is engraved like a DHE.

[Ken Hill]

Greg,

Thanks, I didn't think they would be in that price range.

Ken

[Greg Baehman]

I've been contemplating this little 4/0- frame BHE, not for purchase, but for what the DHE engraving does to its value. Does it affect the value in a positive way similar to an already rare coin that has been mis-struck? Or does it affect the value in a negative way by diminishing its desirability? What do you think?

[David Noble]

Has anyone here seen one of the other 8 or so BHE 410 repro's that can say that this one is unique, or were they all made like this? Just asking.

[Kenny Graft]

My understanding is that only two 0000 frame guns were made...both prototypes. This could explain the engraving issue as it was only a experimental gun. I would think being this rare, it would be worth the asking price. That gun should only weigh 5lbs if on a 0000 frame. Very rare indeed! I wish I could see one in person.....SXS ohio

[Bill Murphy]

I have seen some 0000 frame BHEs. They are not prototypes. Their production numbers are well known. End of production of all Repros ended production of the 0000 frame BHE .410s. It was to be a catalogued production item, not a prototype. Kevin McCormack and I had a couple of 0000 .410s in our ".410 Parker" display at the Baltimore Show several years ago. One was a factory BHE and one was a factory Gournet engraved A-1 Special. Geoffroy Gournet has engraved several 0000 frame .410s since production ended. A friend and I ordered two 0000 frame BHEs when we were shown the first prototype, but the order was never filled. The actual production of DHE and BHE 0000 frame .410 has been posted recently. I assume the D engraved, B marked gun at Beinfeld's show is one of the rare DHEs mentioned in the production chart. By the way, many 00 frame .410 barrels are stamped 0000, but the 0000 frame is very different from the 00 frame. I assume that the 33 DHE .410s in the production figures are 00 frame guns. The Vegas gun may be the only D engraved 0000 frame gun out there. Before I sprung for that gun, I would be very sure it was a 0000 frame. Who offered that gun?

[Rich Anderson]

I would think the DHE style engraveing would detract from the value. A BHe is a higher grade gun and should therefor look like it.

[Bill Murphy]

Greg, the BHE 0000 frame .410 is not an unusual combination. BHE is the grade that these guns were made in, with the exception of the D engraved one you saw. Without breech ball beads, I question whether it is a 0000 frame. The 0000 frame is very different from the 00 frame and doesn't have what can be described as breech balls. Who offered that unusual gun?

[Greg Baehman]

Bill, I never said the BHE 0000-frame .410 was an unusual combination. What I said was that it is unusual in the sense that they are seldom seen. I have been to the Winter Beinfeld Show 11 times, the VC a couple of times, other S x S events many times, local shoots and gun shows and run in circles of S x S enthusiasts and have never had my hands on one before. I also said it was ultra-unusual and extra-odd in the sense that it's a BHE with DHE-style engraving. I would guess that even you would have to admit that is somewhat unusual.:)

Make no mistake this was indeed a 0000-frame. I compared it to the 00-frame 28/28/.410 A-1 Special I previously mentioned. The frame itself is about 1/16", maybe a hair more narrower than a 00-frame.

The seller's name is Paul Dorsa from Los Gatos, CA. He bought the gun new from Parker
Reproduction dealer Mike Weatherby. Incidently, he also had a .410 Parker on a 000-frame at the show.

[edgarspencer]

How can it be a BHE "throughout" but be engraved like a D, No bead, and barrel wedges? Checkering alone doesn't make a BHE, to me

[Greg Baehman]

Edgar, please don't take what I described in my initial post out of context.

[Kenny Graft]

Please do not confuse the 0000 barrels for 0000 frame guns. All of the 410 set that have been listed or seen her are on 00 frame 28ga. guns with 0000 marked 410 barrels. All the 410 sets are marked 0000. Only one true 5lb. 0000 complete gun has been confirmed that I know of and I did not see or handle it. This is a very confusing issue since the frame is not marked. The only way to know is by weight. My 0000 frame 410/00 28 comes in at 6lbs-4oz with 410-s in place. The one BHE 0000 true prototype was 5lbs. That's what I know after years of study. SXS ohio

[Kenny Graft]

I hope you can read this, its small,,,thanks Kenny

[edgarspencer]

Greg, I didn't think I was manipulating your words, but as sweet as a 4 ought frame gun must be, I don't see how it could be a BHE throughout, but with D grade engraving, which is very much less coverage than a B grade. Additionally, lacking a single bead behind the breach balls is not in keeping with any B grade I've seen, nor have I seen a B grade with barrel wedge engraving, which would usually only be sen on some double A grades, and A-1 Special

[Greg Baehman]

Edgar, we're in the Parker Reproduction Forum here and we're talking about a Parker Reproduction BHE. Parker Repro BHE Grades typically have barrel wedge engraving. You can Google Images yourself to check 'em out, but I already did that for you with the image below:

[edgarspencer]

Thanks for that image. That one does have the bead behind the bolsters, and the Checkering pattern is pretty faithful to the original, though I guess they took license when they added the barrel wedge engraving.

[Greg Baehman]

Greg, the BHE 0000 frame .410 is not an unusual combination. BHE is the grade that these guns were made in, with the exception of the D engraved one you saw. Without breech ball beads, I question whether it is a 0000 frame. The 0000 frame is very different from the 00 frame and doesn't have what can be described as breech balls. Who offered that unusual gun?
Please read the remainder of the top left column paragraph in this link:

http://parkerguns.org/forums/album.php?albumid=99&pictureid=1027

Are you saying that the reported 33 factory completed 0000-frame .410 Repros were only built as B-Grades?

[Bill Murphy]

Greg, to begin, you DID state that the BHE grade 0000 frame .410 was unusual among 0000 frame .410s. That is not the case. Among factory finished 0000 frame .410s, the BHE was the catalog gun and the grade they are found in, with the exception of the gun being discussed with the D grade engraving. Kenny, you are beating a dead horse. It has been stated on this forum for years, and again stated by me in this thread, that most, if not all, 00 frame .410 barrels are marked 0000. Additionally, your statement about 0000 frame guns being identified by weight or any other method other than "looking at the frame" is a fallacy. The 0000 frame, for those who have seen one, is very obvious at first glance. There are no exposed breech balls, the hint of a breech ball being inletted into the width of the receiver. You continue to say that only one true 0000 frame .410 has been located. I have seen several, had several in my hands. I resent the fact that you are calling me a bit of a fibber about this. I would like to see Kevin McCormack post here, because he also has seen a few, and had them in his hands. Apparently your "Years of study" didn't show you that the frames are different in appearance and the "weight" is a red herring. Sure, the weight is different, but scales are scarce at Winter Vegas.

[Bill Murphy]

Greg, this is an answer to your last question. Of the 33 finished guns, there are 9 reported to have been "finished and factory engraved to grade". Of these, all known except the gun in question are or should be BHE grade. The remaining 24, working 0000 frame .410s, were white and unengraved. Most were engraved by Geoffroy Gournet after production ceased , with some rumored to be retained by the Skeuse family. For the information of Kenny Graft, I have seen several of the guns in process by Geoffroy, and have also seen a finished A-1 Special by Geoffroy, had it in my hands, and waved it around. I have also had in my hands, a prototype as Kenny refers to it. Kenny is incorrect in saying the 0000 .410 is "only a prototype". It is a production gun. The production figures are well known. The prototype is identical to production 0000 frame .410s as see it. I examined it in detail and have examined other 0000 frame .410s in detail, and saw no difference. I don't know the serial number of the prototype I examined.

[Bill Murphy]

Parker Reproductions Northeast Sales Manager, Ray Stone, visited here on August 31, 1988, to display and promote the Repro and the new .410 BHE. He brought a beautiful little prototype with him for examination and display. My friend, Mel Swerdloff, and I placed orders for identical .410 BHEs, his field choked, mine skeet choked. We had hours to inspect the new gun, but it only took me about five minutes to decide I needed one. Ray didn't know the price of the new gun and I didn't care. I still have a copy of the order.

[Kenny Graft]

Chaddic had one of the two know true 0000 frame guns. I did see pictures of it but not good ones, it only was 410 and 5lbs. About the other 33 guns you speak of, they are on 00 frames... end of story unless you can show pictures of the frame with no balls....I saw this or that but no pictures have ever shown up. Look back in the old threads, lots of speculation but never any real proof. Think about the 410 barrels, they are made to mate to 28ga. 00 frames. If the frame was little the barrels would hang out past the breach balls. It just can't work. oooo frame stand alone 410 never got past the one or two prototypes. Im real sure there is not 33 of them. Thanks all, SXS ohio

[Bill Murphy]

The BHE in four gauges were introduced by a memo to dealers in 1988 at a retail of $3900 plus. One hundred of each gauge were to be produced. By 1989, they were missing from Repro literature. The Gun List advertisement placed by Mike Weatherby, offering a BHE .410, was dated April 9, 1993, long after production ended. The assumption is that Paul Dorsa's gun, seen at Las Vegas, was purchased from that ad, or maybe another Weatherby offering earlier. The Weatherby asking price was $16,000.

[Bill Murphy]

Kenny, you are being very impolite to tell me that I have not seen what I have seen. I've been in this longer than you have and have seen the guns. I know about the Chaddick gun, and it is not, as you say, one of two known genuine 0000 frame .410s. Maybe you should post those pictures. Geoffroy and I measured the pin separation on 0000 frame guns to confirm that they are different from the 00 frame. They are. The barrels of a 0000 do not "hang out the sides", because they are smaller than the 0000 marked 00 frame barrels. Without consulting my notes, I seem to recall that the genuine 0000 frame has an identical pin separation with the original Parker Brothers 000 frame. Please do not persist on implying I am not telling the truth.

[Bill Murphy]

The 33 DHE .410s in the production chart are assumed to be, as you suggest, 00 frame dedicated .410 guns, not part of sets, very hard to find, because some probably got converted into sets. The 0000 frame BHEs, which the production chart lists as 9 built, are a completely different animal. However, the 9 BHEs are not the complete production of 0000 frame guns, as I stated in my earlier post.

[Greg Baehman]

Bill, how do you know which frame size the 9 .410 BHEs listed in the production chart were built on?

I have to think that the 33 DHE .410s listed in the production chart were extrapolated from the Sisley article---although the Sisley article did not mention what grade they were finished out in.

Where did I say "the BHE grade 0000 frame .410 was unusual among 0000 frame .410s." Or did you take what I said out of context? Unusual, to me, is something that is not usual. I have been at the Repro game since the mid 80s and I hoisted a grand total of just one 0000-frame gun. That, in my world, qualifies as something that is unusual or not usually seen.

[Bill Murphy]

On page one of this thread, in your paragraph you numbered "1.", is where I see that you stated that there "were few 0000 guns and even fewer B Grades". In fact, most were B grades. I can see where you meant that if there were one 0000 gun that was not a B Grade, your statement makes sense. I apologize for my misunderstanding your point.

[Rich Anderson]

:dh::dh: Oh come on lets beat it some more....I'm glad I got a Fox FE 410:rotf:

[Greg Baehman]

:dh::dh: Oh come on lets beat it some more....I'm glad I got a Fox FE 410:rotf:
You just gotta love this type of thread busting post. :rolleyes:

Oh well, I learned something from the discussion and hope others did as well.

[Rich Anderson]

Greg I learned a few things myself:shock: Hope to see you at a shoot sometime:)

[Bill Murphy]

Greg, even though we don't agree on everything we discuss, your last post was quite profound. Thank you so much.

[Greg Baehman]

If you've never seen and/or would like to take a look at a Parker Reproduction BHE .410 on a 0000-frame, go here:

http://www.icollector.com/Parker-by-Winchester-410ga-BHE-grade-side-by-side-shotgun-on-factory-small-frame-showing-26-b_i10488354#

I believe we discussed this very gun a few years ago. You can see another, this one engraved by Geoffroy Gournet, on pages 38 & 39 of the Winter 2013 DGJ.

[Bill Murphy]

Now there is a picture I can live with. THIS is nobody's 00 frame. Thanks.

[Greg Baehman]

When taking another look at the 4/0-frame BHE .410 in the above link I cannot say with absolute certainty that the DHE engraved BHE that was shown in Vegas didn't have the single bead, too. As you can see, the bead appears a little different on the 4/0-frame than on the larger frames.

[Bill Murphy]

Yes, the entire bead and ball area is inletted into the frame on the 0000 frame gun. It is very different from the 00 frame configuration. The gun in the auction pictures is probably a Robert Petersen gun and was the buy of the century in Parker Repros. I have no idea who owns it now.

[Joe Bernfeld]

Can you believe the auction site predicted it would sell for $3000-$6000 :shock:!?

[Kenny Graft]

I stand corrected....)-: In the future I will ask questions, not make statements. This topic is filled with mystery and flawed info. This is the first time I learned about the true 0000 frame guns except for the prototype that Chaddic claimed to own, it being one of two made....sorry for any confusion. The thing that makes this all so confusing is that they marked the 410 barrels that fit 00 frame guns with same frame size, 0000!, how can that be correct? They must be different to fit the bigger 00 frames. The production stats in parker story states about 30 sets of 0000 frame barrels were made to fit 00 28ga. guns....ware did these other 0000 BHE barrels sets come from? I know about 13 set were mated to DHE 28 sets and some to 00 BHE and A-1s. Did they use the rest to make the BHE mini frame guns by altering them some how?? or did these true 0000 barrels get left out of the count? Research...research ...research....we must know...(-: SXS ohio

[Dean Romig]

As I recall, the one Herschel Chaddick had was being offered at something like $23K at the time. Am I correct in my recollection?

[Kenny Graft]

I think it was less....I called or e-mailed but it was sold. I think BB collectibles bought the one that sold at auction that I bid on, then listed it on the net for much more! remember He must still have that one? everything is sketchy......

[Bill Murphy]

Kenny, regardless of what is printed in a magazine twenty years ago, the 00 frame barrels marked 0000 have a different pin separation from the "real" 0000 barrels. As I recall, the 0000 "real" barrels have a pin separation identical to the Parker Brothers 000 frame. They are not the same, they don't fit back and forth, and the barrels that you have on your 28 gauge do not fit the 0000 frame BHE guns. Just to miss with your mind a bit, "Remington made 28 gauge guns on the 000 .410 frame." I don't know where the one is that I inspected and measured, but I have the serial number in my files. It is absolutely a factory gun.

[Bill Murphy]

Kenny, I just reread your last post. You bid on the Petersen BHE .410 and lost it to an $11,000 bidder??

[Kenny Graft]

Now I remember....The buyer premium adds up fast...wish I could of hung in there.. )-: So what I gather is the 410 barrels that mate up with 28ga. guns are really 00 frame barrels that are miss marked....this is ware the confusion lies...(-: Now I can make sense of all this. Anyway I really like the 00 frame 410-s I own...and now that Im informed I will be on the look for one of them baby frame 410-s (-: thanks all SXS ohio

[ForrestArmstrong]

http://i60.tinypic.com/4t0zyf.jpg

[Bill Murphy]

Yup, there she lay.

[ForrestArmstrong]

Larry Baer's set
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=396913167

[Mark Callanan]

Larry Baer's set
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=396913167

I wonder how you put a value on a gun like that?

[Kenny Graft]

I have seen a standard finished 3 barrel A1 set sell....asking price was 50K...sell price unknown. A DHE 410/28 three barrel set sold for 14500.00 This set could be completed 10-15K I would think?? and it would be done exactly as the owner wanted! , not some ones elses dream gun. That said 30K sounds about right....25K would be better deal and leave some room for dealing with craftsman. I want a hi grade SXS one day built for me., I think it will be a Fox 16 with ejectors...(-: Thanks all SXS ohio If this was a double trigger set I may have offered 25K??????BANG HEAD

[Bill Murphy]

Larry Baer's set is a nice one, but I would still rather have a 0000 .410 in the same unengraved condition.

[ForrestArmstrong]

....I would still rather have a 0000 .410 in the same unengraved conditionMe too, with double triggers.

Here's a 00 DHE 3 barrel 28/28/410:
http://www.gunsinternational.com/PARKER-REPRODUCTION-RARE-DHE-3-BARREL-SET.cfm?gun_id=100108849

(I'm still new to these forums and learning protocol, so if it is inappropriate to post these links, particularly to auctions or guns for sale, moderator please advise/remove.)

[Bill Murphy]

Kenny, buyer's premium or not, $11,000 is not the place to give up on a $35,000 shotgun.

[Greg Baehman]

Bill, as I previously stated, Paul Dorsa had the gun for sale on his table in Vegas. He had it tagged at $25K, but told me, with a smile on his face, that that price was negotiable.

I believe I still have his card with contact info. PM me if you'd like his phone number. :)

[Greg Baehman]

Here are pics of the BHE 0000-frame .410 that Kenny bid on. (This is not the topic-of-this-thread Paul Dorsa BHE/DHE engraved gun).

[Greg Baehman]

Here it is . . . beyond rare . . . the very subject of this thread . . . a 0000-Frame .410 BHE with DHE engraving. (Notice it has a BHE-style engraved toplever, but no barrel wedge engraving--I must have mis-remembered that it was sans the barrel wedge when I first saw it in Vegas--over excitement and bewilderment you know!). Now for sale with Steve Barnett:
http://www.gunsinternational.com/PARKER-REPRODUCTION-BHE-410.cfm?gun_id=100530527

[John Allen]

The BHE 410 is on gunsinternational now at $27,500.The item number is 100530527.It is a great looking gun.It looks like a prototype to me.They did a good job of blending DHE and BHE.A possible one of a kind.

[Greg Baehman]

I'm a bit surprised Barnett has it's listed weight as being 5 lbs. 15 oz., a 28-ga. 00-Frame Repro will typically weigh less than that.

[Rich Anderson]

I'm curious as to why a B grade gun would be engraved as a D grade. It defeats the purpose of buying a B grade.

[Dean Romig]

Somebody please correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe I read somewhere that the dimension between firing pin centers of the 0000-frame and the 000-frame are exactly the same and the only thing that makes it a "0000-frame" is the number of zeros stamped on the lug.

[Greg Baehman]

I'll take a crack at that one Dean . . . I, too; have read the pin separation is the same on both the 000-frame Parkers and the 0000-frame Parker Reproductions, but I believe there are a couple more dissimilarities than just the frame size stamping on the barrel lugs. Now, I have not had the opportunity to actually measure any of these frames, but from viewing them the 0000-frame Repro barrels appear more "internal" to the frame compared to the 000-frame guns. In addition, the 0000-frame doesn't have the step-down in the barrels as does the 000-frame Parker guns.

[Bill Murphy]

Dean, actually, the 0000 mark on the lug would be there on 00 barrels as well as 0000 barrels. That's just the way the Repro factory marked them. So then it gets complicated. If I am right about the firing pin distance, the 0000 receiver would be different from the 28 gauge 00 receiver. My recollection is that the genuine 0000 receiver has the same pin separation as a factory Parker Brothers 000 .410 receiver. In addition to the different appearance of the breech balls, the pin separation is different on the Repro 00 and the Repro 0000 .410 guns. The pin separation on the 000, and supposedly the 0000, is 13/16". The separation on the 00 frame, whether original Parker Brothers or Repro 28 gauge or .410 on the 28 gauge frame, is 15/16". Now, I am working from memory from when I measured 0000 Repro pin separations that were in the possession of Geoffroy Gournet. Maybe the owner of a 0000 frame BHE or Gournet custom could confirm. I believe I also measured pin separations in 0000 frames when Kevin McCormack and I had a couple of 0000 frame Repros in our display at Baltimore a few years ago.

[Bill Murphy]

Now that some generous posters have provided us with pictures of the real 0000 frame Repros, guys like Greg and Kenny will have a better understanding that you don't need a scale or calipers to identify one. They are just plumb different in outer appearance.

[Greg Baehman]

Now that some generous posters have provided us with pictures of the real 0000 frame Repros, guys like Greg and Kenny will have a better understanding that you don't need a scale or calipers to identify one. They are just plumb different in outer appearance.
I had no idea that I didn't understand what I identified as a 0000-frame BHE/DHE engraved Repro was when I started this thread. Thank you for pointing that out, Bill. It just goes to show that you can learn something new here everyday! :confused:

[Bill Murphy]

Greg, I know this thread was hard reading, but I think the information has gotten out. I have probably handled more 0000 frame Repros than anyone but Geoffroy and the Skeuses, but have never owned one. When I saw the Mike Weatherby ad in Shotgun News a few decades ago ($16,000), I knew I never would. I wish I could have talked to Paul Dorsa before he sold his.

[Greg Baehman]

Although I'm not privy to it, I have a hunch that Paul Dorsa still owns the gun and has it on consignment with Steve Barnett, but I could be wrong.

[Bill Murphy]

Thanks for the info.

[Chris Travinski]

For what it's worth, Steve Barnett has a OOOO frame BHE up on his site.

[Greg Baehman]

For what it's worth, Steve Barnett has a OOOO frame BHE up on his site.
News Flash for you Chris, we discussed this listing close to a month ago, starting back on pg. 6 of this thread.

[Chris Travinski]

I guess I'll mind my own business, didn't mean to waste your time.

[Greg Baehman]

No need to apologize Chris, I'm quite sure Steve Barnett appreciates the mention.

[Greg Baehman]

Another rare Repro seen was being offered by Larry Baer. An A-1 Special in-the-white 3 bbl. set in its factory O & L case. 28/28/.410 on a 00-frame. Reportedly the only one ever produced.
Well, what goes around comes around . . . this very gun that I had mentioned seeing on the late Larry Baer's table at the Beinfeld '14 Winter Vegas in the 1st post of this thread and subsequently listed on GB without finding a buyer, will now be offered in the upcoming Oct. 6 & 7, 2015 James D. Julia auction.

http://jamesdjulia.com/item/2388-386/

[ForrestArmstrong]

Apparently Mr. Baer was a pretty good engraver himself. Check out his custom Grullas in the auction.

[Greg Baehman]

Another rare Repro seen was being offered by Larry Baer. An A-1 Special in-the-white 3 bbl. set in its factory O & L case. 28/28/.410 on a 00-frame. Reportedly the only one ever produced.

Well, what goes around comes around . . . this very gun that I had mentioned seeing on the late Larry Baer's table at the Beinfeld '14 Winter Vegas in the 1st post of this thread and subsequently listed on GB without finding a buyer, will now be offered in the upcoming Oct. 6 & 7, 2015 James D. Julia auction.

http://jamesdjulia.com/item/2388-386/

Just to close the loop on this in-the-white and unengraved Parker Reproduction A-1 Special 00-frame bi-gauge 28/28/.410 3-bbl. set . . . Julia's did find a buyer for it. The new owner paid at least $26,450.00 to get it . . . and probably only has ~ $10K or so to go to complete it.

[Bill Murphy]

The bigger question is "What happened to the 0000 frame .410 that Steve Barnett was selling for Paul Dorsa?" It doesn't seem to be on Steve's website today.

[Greg Baehman]

Well, as our friend the late Ed Muderlak would've said . . . "The investigation continues."

[davidkerns]

I would investigate the gun a bit more , im sure you checked to make sure the the bbls and the frame have the same serial#s , I am agreement with others that d grade engraving is a definite detract and I could be wrong , I don't think it will be treated like a double struck coin .
When a collector is buying a gun , particularly a Parker Reproduction if anything you would like to find the B grade with higher grade engraving , and on some original Parkers on rare occasion you would find a D grade gun with an extra duck or some extra engraving on the gun , again this is rare but it did happen , and sometimes a special order gun may have the extra embellishments.
I would say the wrong engraving drives the price down , none the less , this makes it a target for the seller to have to take a lower price , particularly once the news has travelled
and the seller knows what he has , and the item has not sold for some apparent reason.
Good luck on your venture.
Dave Kerns PGCA member#1691

[Greg Baehman]

In going back and re-reading this thread it brings up several unanswered questions regarding these very alluring and intriguing little 0000-frame Repros. Questions like -- where did the numbers in the production chart for the .410s come from? Are these documented numbers, or are they assumptions? The 33 listed DHE .410s do not mention what size frame they were built on, nor do the 9 BHE 410s. Another question brought up in another thread was -- Do the .0000-frame production Repros with beavertail forends have the reinforcement rod?

Then we have the Nick Sisley quote in an article that he wrote about Parker Reproductions in the Jan/ Feb 1996 issue of Shotgun Sports magazine where he writes -- "Finally, the factory started 133 .410s on the tiny 4/0 frame. They completed 33 of these, and that's when production ceased. . . . As for the 100 partially made .410s on the 4/0 frame, Jack Skeuse continues to build as time and experienced gunsmiths permit." OK, here we have some numbers, but no mention of what grade they were finished out in.

Then, to add to the confusion regarding the 9 BHE .410s in the production chart, we have this -- a .410 BHE Repro on a 0000-frame -- the 2nd 4/0-frame BHE to be found with DHE-style engraving, Serial No. B .410-0052 . . . if there were only 9 built, how do we explain this gun at #52? Can we answer that without a question?

[Bill Murphy]

The number 52 can be explained by realizing that by popular rumor, 133 were started. There are probably a few of them still out there, but they are buried deep and will be expensive.

[Greg Baehman]

The number 52 can be explained by realizing that by popular rumor, 133 were started. There are probably a few of them still out there, but they are buried deep and will be expensive.

Wow, that is certainly is a different response to the 9 BHEs you claimed were built back on page 3 of this thread.

[Bill Murphy]

The nine BHEs were completed guns, or maybe there were 33.

[Bill Murphy]

Sisley created a little confusion when he used the same production total, 33, for two entirely different guns. In my opinion, the 33 DHEs were probably one barrel set .410s on the 00 frame. The second 33, again in my opinion, refers to the "finished" BHE 0000 frame guns. I think I made an error in my comments on page 3 of this thread. I think Sisley was probably correct in stating that 133 0000 frame .410s were started.

[Greg Baehman]

Somebody please correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe I read somewhere that the dimension between firing pin centers of the 0000-frame and the 000-frame are exactly the same and the only thing that makes it a "0000-frame" is the number of zeros stamped on the lug.
It's reported in The Parker Story that the distance between the firing pins of a 000-frame Parker is 13/16", it has also been stated (but not verified) that a 0000-frame Parker Reproduction has this same dimension between the firing pins. Well, on the net today I just happened to come across a couple of pics of a 000-frame Parker and it got me to wondering whether or not they are the same? Take a look at these pics and compare the little nuances and differences . . . the 1st is a 000-frame Parker, the 2nd is a 0000-frame Repro, the 3rd is the Parker again and the 4th and 5th pics are the Repro again. There is a step down of the barrels on a 000-frame Parker which the 0000-frame Repros do not have and it appears that the Repro barrels are more internal to the frame than the 000-frame Parker. What conclusions can we draw from this? It could be: A) The pin separation is not the same, or: B) the frame dimensions across the watertable at the breech and hinge of the Repro are greater than the 000-frame Parker. What do you think? Anyone have 0000-frame Repro that they can measure to verify?

[Bill Murphy]

What many collectors and researchers don't realize is the we are not comparing the 000 frame original Parker .410 frame with the 0000 frame Repro frame. The elephant in the room is the OO frame Repro frame, which is the frame that most .410 Repro Parkers are built on. The 0000 frame Repro is nothing like any other Parker frame, even though frames marked 0000 are incorrectly identified as 0000 frames, they are not, they are Repro 00 frames made for the 28 gauge Repro. The Parker Repro was never made on a 000 frame, no, never. The .410 Repro was made either on the 00 frame or the rare and unusual 0000 frame.

[Dean Romig]

I think the thing we can take from this is that comparing a 000-Frame Parker .410 to a 0000-Frame Repro is exactly like comparing apples to oranges. Bill said it best though.






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[Bill Murphy]

It's finally time to measure the firing pin separation on the real 0000 frame Repros. I have done it but another measurement would be nice to confirm.

[Rich Anderson]

I think trying to compare the reproduction to an original Parker is akin to comparing a CSM Fox to a Philly gun. The repro and the CSM guns are both excellent choices BUT there not the original manufacture and therefore not the same.

[Scot Cardillo]

Can anybody state w/fair certainty that the firing pins themselves are exactly the same diameter on all Repro's?

If so, the answer is found by scaling the photo..

[Bill Murphy]

It's finally time to measure the firing pin separation on the real 0000 frame Repros. I have done it but another measurement would be nice. As I recall, it is the same as the original Parker Brothers 000 frame. I may be mistaken.

[Greg Baehman]

The elephant in the room is the OO frame Repro frame, which is the frame that most .410 Repro Parkers are built on.
Are you sure about that?

"Finally, the factory started 133 .410s on the tiny 4/0 frame. They completed 33 of these, and that's when production ceased. . . . As for the 100 partially made .410s on the 4/0 frame, Jack Skeuse continues to build as time and experienced gunsmiths permit."--Nick Sisley, Shotgun Sports Magazine Jan/Feb 1996

[Bill Murphy]

At the time, Sisley's statement was correct. There were more than a few real 0000 frames unfinished at the end of production. Many of these frames were engraved on the aftermarket, some under the direction of the Skeuse family. Although the 000 frame Parkers and the real 0000 frame Repros had similar pin separation (as I recall), the frame treatment and maybe some exterior dimensions were different.

[Greg Baehman]

I'm kind of slow, please help me come through the fog and see the light. From the Parker Repro Production Chart on the Parker Grades page it says that:

* 16 A-1 Special 28/.410 sets were produced--these obviously were built on a 00-frame.

* 9 BHE .410 guns were produced--no frame size is listed, but it's assumed these were on a 0000-frame, right? If we assume Sisley's reporting is accurate, we know at least 33 0000-frame guns were completed, but we don't know what grade they were finished out in. From the pic I posted above we see that it is a 0000-frame BHE and it is #52, so it can be assumed there are at least 52 BHEs, or more, on a 0000-frame out there--and there were 100 more 0000-frame guns at the time at the time of Sisley's article that were started. We do know that Gournet engraved some of those as A-1 Specials, but we don't know how many he finished or if he, or other gunsmiths, finished them and in what grades.

* 33 DHE .410 guns were produced, but we don't know what frame size they were built on--were they on a 00 or 0000-frame?? Where did this quantity of 33 come from?

Do we know definitively how many Repro .410s were built on a 00-frame?

Do we know the number of DHE and BHE 28/.410 00-frame sets that were built?

Maybe there's no answers to the above, but if you're like me and enjoy the hobby, you'd like to know. At the very least, it appears the production chart could use a little help, it's our collective knowledge that can provide that help.

[Greg Baehman]

There are several things we have learned and found concerning Parker Reproductions in this thread:

1. We now know and have seen pics of at least two 0000-frame BHE .410s produced that have DHE-style engraving. I believe everyone would have to agree that this is rare, odd and unusual -- even in the world of Parkers.

2. The Parker Reproduction Production Chart on the Parker Grades page of this website states that there were 9 BHE .410s built. In this thread we have seen pics of B .410-0045 and B .410-0052 (both of these happen to be built on 4/0 frames). It appears from these serial numbers that there were at least 52 built -- and there's probably more out there. The Sisley article corroborates these findings.

3. There are no BHE .410/28 sets mentioned in the Production Chart. We now know there is one and only one BHE .410/28 set ever produced. This is documented by a copy of a type-written letter by J.T. Skeuse, the President of Parker Reproductions to Leslie Blumberg.

Given the above, I respectfully request that the Production Chart be revised and updated to show these Parker Repros found. And going forward, as additional information comes to light, further revisions be made at that time.

[George M. Purtill]

At least 52?
Then there is a chance I can buy one!!!! They are plentiful!

[Bill Murphy]

George, most of them have been through the Gournet shop. Most of those are maximum effort type guns. I won't be buying one of them.

[Dean Romig]

Bill, what is it about them having been engraved by Gournet makes them unattractive to you?





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[Bill Murphy]

$35000 to $75000, maybe way more. I have watched Geoffroy work on several and they are worth every penny anyone would pay. I am a little short on cash and trading material.

[Greg Baehman]

At least 52?
Then there is a chance I can buy one!!!! They are plentiful!
Yep, at least 52 . . . and likely more. Serial numbers tell the tale, Parker Repros were serialized per grade and gauge starting at No. 1 (with the possible exception of the early prototype DHE 20-ga., specialty NSSF and Buffalo Bill Museum guns). In the case of BHE .410s, we have a pic of B .410-0052 -- making it the 52nd B-Grade .410 built, which is the highest number we have found -- so far.

Happy hunting!

[George M. Purtill]

Greg
Someday we will both own one.

[Bill Murphy]

A few years ago, I spent three days attending a display at the Baltimore Show that included a 0000 frame BHE and a 0000 frame Gournet A-1 Special among other Parker .410s. Don't ask me any questions about that weekend. I don't remember anything. All I know is that we didn't lose anything.

[Greg Baehman]

Has anyone here seen, or anyone here own, a Parker Reproduction DHE .410 built on a 00-frame? I'm asking about a single gun, not a .410 that's part of a 28/.410 set.

[gournet]

I just finished engraving a Parker Repro , # 28-53 28ga , 2 28 barrels and a 410 barrels . Parker Repro . Brian Dudley is bluing the barrels .

[Greg Baehman]

I just finished engraving a Parker Repro , # 28-53 28ga , 2 28 barrels and a 410 barrels . Parker Repro . Brian Dudley is bluing the barrels .
Was this an in-the-white A-1 Special that you engraved Geoffroy?

[gournet]

Yes , Parker Repro A1 in the white . I think they are called A1 customs , the A1 special being factory engraved . I will post pictures . Time to figure out how ...

[George M. Purtill]

Well Greg- there is #53. Our chances are getting better!!!

[Greg Baehman]

Not so fast George, I believe it to be a different set of serial numbers for the 28-ga. guns. We're looking for a BHE .410 on a 4/0-frame, right?

It appears that Larry Baer's in-the-white A-1 Special 28/28/.410 3-bbl. set that sold in a Julia auction and mentioned several times earlier in this thread isn't the only such set reportedly made IF the gun that Geoffroy hopefully shows us is indeed S/N 28-53.
http://jamesdjulia.com/item/2388-386/

[George M. Purtill]

Greg- any grade on a 4/0 frame- just added it to my bucket list.

[gournet]

http://s3.photobucket.com/user/ggournet/media/IMG_5025.jpg.html?filters[user]=3776261&filters[recent]=1&sort=1&o=1

[Brian Dudley]

I just finished engraving a Parker Repro , # 28-53 28ga , 2 28 barrels and a 410 barrels . Parker Repro . Brian Dudley is bluing the barrels .



All barrels are for the same gun, the two 28g barrels are marked 00 and the .410 barrels are marked 0000

[Greg Baehman]

Posting pics for Geoffroy Gournet of his breathtakingly beautiful engraving that he did on Parker Reproduction S/N 28-53.

[Harryreed]

:bowdown:WOW

[Dean Romig]

Absolutely stunning.

I fell in love with Geoffroy's signature flighting woodcock several years ago.






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[Rich Anderson]

Awesome!!!:bowdown:
I'd be damn proud of that gun.....and hunt it.

[George M. Purtill]

All barrels are for the same gun, the two 28g barrels are marked 00 and the .410 barrels are marked 0000

I admittedly am a dope - how do 4/0 barrels fit on a 00 frame?

[Rich Anderson]

I was wondering the same thing.

[Greg Baehman]

They're not really 4/0-frame barrels, they are only marked that way. We are talking about the 00-frame 28-ga. sets that have added .410 barrel sets to them. These 4/0-frame sets are a different animal than the true 0000-frame .410 guns that we've been talking about throughout this thread. The confusing thing is, to my knowledge, all Parker Reproduction .410 barrels are marked 0000, although they are marked the same, there are really two different sized barrels intended for two different dimensioned frames.

[George M. Purtill]

They're not really 4/0-frame barrels, they are only marked that way.

So Greg my swami- what is the point?

[Greg Baehman]

Has anyone here seen, or anyone here own, a Parker Reproduction DHE .410 built on a 00-frame? I'm asking about a single gun, not a .410 that's part of a 28/.410 set.
I had asked the above question earlier in this thread. To date, there have been no responses, so I thought I'd bring it to the top for another go round. Anyone know if any Parker Reproduction DHE .410 single guns built on a 00-frame even exist?

[John Allen]

I have seen one BHE 28/410 2 barrel set built on an OO frame.I was told at the time that it was the only set built that way.The 410 production was cut short when the Japanese closed the factory on very short notice.At the time there were only 12 competed guns,some barrels and actions in process.I believe Galazan got the parts and finished some guns.