HEVI-SHOT THROUGH TWIST & DAMASCUS BARRELS

[Jerry Harlow]

I'm not satisfied with the tungsten composite shot on geese. It only cripples. I'm using American E and today I shot and hit four birds and only got one that was crippled and flew down finally, and another that fell 300 yards away. These were close shots, about 30 yards. Second bad experience with this stuff. Have not killed one dead with it yet.

I know Charlie would not hesitate to do this, but I'm thinking of loading some Hevi-shot in a 10 gauge SP10 wad for geese. If there is no contact with the bore, as the whole charge (1.5 ounce) of 4s is contained inside the wad, I don't see how it can hurt stout 10 gauge Parker barrels (Twist and Damascus). Pressure is about 7700 psi and 1150 fps for lead and I understand Hevi-shot may increase pressure a little.

Thoughts?

[Dean Romig]

I didn't think there were any worries using just about any kind of non-tox shot and that the only problem might be steel with tight chokes???

[Jerry Harlow]

Dean,

The concern with Hevi-shot (tungsten, nickel, iron) is the hardness which is harder than anything else (much harder than steel) and permanently marking and wearing the softer composition damascus or twist.

But if it is contained inside a shot cup??? Large charges have shot outside the shot cup in factory loads.

[Dean Romig]

The problem in tightly choked guns is that this hard shot will not easily compress as it tries to get through the choke constriction and could (reportedly) cause ring bulges at the chokes. This was always the fear with steel and tight chokes.... shot cups or not.

[Jerry Harlow]

All guns are full and full. The big shot (bb, t, bbb, etc.) will bridge and bulge is a concern, but I guess my question is number 4s in Hevi-shot should not bridge but be compressed by the choke, and contained in a shot cup, should not score the barrels in the theory developed by my little brain.

That's where the doubt comes from.

[David Holes]

They make 10 gauge wads that are not split, I would use these if really concerned.

[scott kittredge]

try bismuth shot, 1 3/8ths oz BB's and 1's for geese, they are killers :bowdown: scott

[Mark Ouellette]

I have had great results with Nice Shot in my Damascus barreled guns. Rather than risk using Heavy Shot I would use either Nice Shot or large Bismuth as Scott suggested.

To start, "choke" is the measure of performance not the constriction that causes. Example, a gun that shoots 70% of the pellets in a 30" circle at 40 yards delivers full choke patterns. That gun might have a barrel constriction of .025" or .045" depending on the shot size, shot hardness, velocity, or shape of the constriction. I'll use choke constriction rather than the erroneous term choke.

A choke constriction creates a venturi effect so that the shot squirts out of the muzzle. It is just like water leaving a garden hose.

Lead shot does compress a little but more so flows out of the constriction. The shot at the front is accelerated so that it is traveling faster than it was prior to being constricted. The very last pellets to leave the barrel were not squirted out at a velocity faster that they had when before entering the constricted area. This is why the shot string is longer for a full choke than the same load from a more open choke constriction.

Large round shot be it lead or steel doesn't flow through a choke constriction as easily as does smaller round shot. Shot buffer helps lubricate this flow. Heavy Shot being irregular shapes doesn't flow well at all.

Tom Rooster patented thick and plastic harder shot cup wads so that the second generation of steel shot could be used in tighter choke constrictions.

The wads in factory Heavy Shot loads are at least twice as thick at their thinnest area in their petals as the modern full choke constrictions. This gives the pellets a soft cushion it compress into should they not be able to flow via the venturi effect. One should cut open modern Heavy Shot and steel shot shells and study the wads used.

WARNING: The following is only for Damascus barrels that are in as new condition. They should be accurately measured for minimum barrel wall thickness radially. This inspection should be preformed by a qualified doublegun smith.

The following is not for a Belgian clunker, hardware store gun, of other piece of crap although they might be perfect test subjects... :rotf:
Restrict this to Parkers, LC Smiths, Bakers, and other guns whose names have become legends.

If I desired to shoot Heavy Shot rather than Nice Shot I would do the following:
1. Use unslit wads made for steel shot as Holeshot suggested.
2. Add a mylar liner for extra cushion thickness.
3. Ensure that the total thickness of the wad petals is at least twice that of my choke constriction, i.e. .040" choke constriction being .020" at any radial of the barrel requires a wad petal of at least .040". I might start with total petal thickness that is three times the thickness of the constriction.
4. Use shot buffer made for Heavy Shot.
5. Ensure that the shot column is lower that the shot cup. Remember when the shot column is compressed it will increase in height.
6. Start with no larger than #4 Heavy Shot. Find the wads after shooting such as when you pattern your load. Examine those wads for how far the pellets compressed the plastic in the petals.

I once hunted with someone who shot Federal factory loaded steel shot through a #2 frame Parker with Damascus barrels which had .035 and ,040" choke constrictions. After 200 rounds that gun had no problems other than the stock.

Oh, when I got caught short of shell as a flock was coming in. That same someone handed me a half dozen steel shot loads which I shot in my #2 frame Parker with no bad results.

Damascus, the original nano technology is more elastic than fluid steel. I believe that if all else were the same such as bore size and choke constriction and shape, that the same load of lead or steel shot would cause the Damascus barrel to expand more than would the barrel of fluid steel. The is Young's Modulas in that everything is a spring.

PS: Only shoot steel or Heavy Shot through barrels that you can afford to lose! The old wives tales of the horrors of both Damascus and steel shot may come true...

Consider using Bismuth or Nice Shot

Mark

[charlie cleveland]

jerry im shooting 3 inchhand loaded steel bb loads through my lc smith as of now...and have shot lot of steel bb loads through the parker 8 ga with stub twist steel barrels...they pattern well no harm done to barrels...the 12 lc smith will take ducks at 65 yards clean with 3 to 5 bbs hits in the duck all dead...steel bb s will kill that goose too and wo nt break the bank or harm the gun barrels if you use good wads...charlie....

[Eldon Goddard]

I may just be crazy here, but why do they not make cast iron shot. It is roughly the same density as steel and much softer.

[Rick Losey]

I may just be crazy here, but why do they not make cast iron shot. It is roughly the same density as steel and much softer.

most likely casting individual round balls in cast iron would be prohibitively expensive

[Jeff Christie]

I had great results with Bismuth handloads on roosters this year. I intend to load some large shot loads for geese next year. Chances for doubles on geese are much much better than on roosters, grouse or woodcock. I want one of the doubles pins.

[Jerry Harlow]

Thanks to all for the replies. My 10s are choked .035 in both barrels so a fair amount of constriction.

I'm going to go back to the 3.5" guns if I keep crippling birds at close range. I guess Hevi-shot has spoiled me. I'm use to them falling stone dead up to 50 yards. The soft stuff reminds me of steel too much.

I'm too old to get in foot races with wounded geese as I did in my younger days. No dog and Saturday I took two young kids hunting (shooting steel); we had three cripples running like turkeys in every direction. I try to shoot as few times as possible so it does not sound like a war to the residential neighborhood and we try to run down cripples. It already cost me my hunting permit on one of the best farms I had, when the city-dwelling neighbors complained. The landowners back down from them instead of telling them to go to H___.

I've got Bismuth in 4s and the American E in 4s for reloading. Not enough punch for late season geese I'm afraid, probably the equivalent of lead 5s by weight. Where can you find Bismuth in 2s or bigger, just the shot? I'm not seeing it.

[Mills Morrison]

I have had good results with Nice Shot and Kent Tungsten Matrix. Of course, it is all subjective and I still remember how bad steel shot was.

[Mark Ouellette]

Jerry,

Here you go!

http://www.ecotungsten.com/online-store.html

The BB size is not available but the #2 is. Order the 6 pound box so it is not so expensive per shot.

I have great success with #2 Nice Shot. Oh, loading is as simple as allowing for an additional 1500 PSI.

Mark

[Marc Retallack]

Jerry,

Precision Reloading has Bismuth BBs and 1s if you don't go the Nice Shot route
http://www.precisionreloading.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Store_Code=PRE&Category_Code=BISMUTH_SHOT

Marcus