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Dean Romig
01-14-2014, 10:30 AM
There has been a lot of ink dedicated to styles, conformations, accepted behavior, and trends in bird hunting dogs for the last century and more. One of the topics of discussion has been the position or attitude of the tail of a dog on point. It is said that the development and training of a "high-tailed" dog began with field trialers and then with the bench set and the earlier preferred "level" position of the tail or dropped tail fell by the wayside.

The dogs I see engraved on our Parkers always seem to be holding their tails at the level position. I would suspect that a Parker produced in the Remington era might be more likely to show a dog with an elevated tail but I can't remember seeing one like this.

Can anyone show us a picture of his Parker with a dog holding its tail in a distinctly elevated position?

Rick Losey
01-14-2014, 10:47 AM
I don't the the so called 12 o'clock tail was as common even in the Remington days.

The dogs depicted on the guns tend to be classic hunting dogs. Even today these lines of dogs, especially the setters, will tend towards a level or an "Osthaus tail" at the highest

Dean Romig
01-14-2014, 10:58 AM
I'm afraid you're right Rick but somebody might have such an example.

Greg Baehman
01-14-2014, 12:02 PM
This example, from the post-Remington era, could be described as having an elevated tail:

Rick Losey
01-14-2014, 12:16 PM
Nice

Certainly not level, that is pretty much a classic Osthaus tail position.

Quite a bit shy of the field trial 12 o'oclock look,

Harold Lee Pickens
01-14-2014, 12:22 PM
I would agree with Rick. That is a 45 degree or Osthaus tail.

Dean Romig
01-14-2014, 12:25 PM
Wonderful! Thanks Greg - that's what I was talking about and, of course, on a Remington era gun as I suspected might be out there.

Any more guys?

Dean Romig
01-14-2014, 12:28 PM
"post-Remington era"

Post Remington? Do you mean after Remington ended the Parker Gun Project?

It definitely looks to be Bob Runge's work.

Okay.... Now I see that it is a Parker Repro - but is copied from original Remington Parkers that were used as patterns (in every detail) to be used for the Repros.

Jeff Davis
01-14-2014, 01:29 PM
I don't the the so called 12 o'clock tail was as common even in the Remington days.

The dogs depicted on the guns tend to be classic hunting dogs. Even today these lines of dogs, especially the setters, will tend towards a level or an "Osthaus tail" at the highest

The DH I picked up has a setter on one side
http://i963.photobucket.com/albums/ae116/jsd245/Parker%20DH/DSC_0110_zps87427b12.jpg

and a pointer on the other-
http://i963.photobucket.com/albums/ae116/jsd245/Parker%20DH/DSC_0002_zps774b2668.jpg

both have the level tail. These days a pointer like that would probably never be considered a good trial dog prospect. Lots of talk about a "high tail" makes a pointer move better, better style, etc. I don't really get it, but I'm not a field trial guy.

I think it dates from 1890 according to the serial number.

I wouldn't say the level tail has disappeared. I think it depends on the breed and the intended purpose. I've got a shorthair that came out of lines that definitely tend toward field trial dogs, though she's pretty good in the grouse woods. She's got so much white on here I'm sure some would say there was some pointer blood mixed in somewhere. She has the erect tail that field trailers prefer, and pictures I've seen of other dogs from her bloodline do as well. I remember talking to her breeder when I first got her and she was just starting to point. One of the first things he asked was did she have a high tail on point. My newest dog is a Drahthaar, just 8 months old now. There isn't any consideration to "pointing style" when breeding them from what I can tell, its all about can they do the jobs we ask them to (which ranges from pointing upland birds to blood tracking deer), are they biddable, and are they sound from a confirmation perspective. She points with a dead level tail, and most pictures I've seen of Drahthaars pointing they have a low tail- I've never seen a picture of a Drahthaar pointing with a ramrod straight up and down tail like an English pointer, though I'm sure one may exist somewhere.

Dean Romig
01-14-2014, 01:57 PM
Gee, I thought GSP's and Drahthaar's customarily all had docked tails. I'm sure there some that didn't have their tails docked. I've never seen either breed engraved of a Parker though.

Jeff Davis
01-14-2014, 02:47 PM
Gee, I thought GSP's and Drahthaar's customarily all had docked tails. I'm sure there some that didn't have their tails docked. I've never seen either breed engraved of a Parker though.

A properly docked tail is at about 40% of its original length. Plenty of length to see how it is carried when pointing. It shouldn't be a little stub. Regardless of the questionable choices in dogs breeds as subjects for engraving I still think these Parkers are beautiful guns.

Fred Preston
01-14-2014, 02:50 PM
Here's an old Elhew throwback (1996-2010) who usually scored ok for style in NSTRA trials and passed the drug screen for viagra.

Greg Baehman
01-14-2014, 07:39 PM
Post Remington? Do you mean after Remington ended the Parker Gun Project?

It definitely looks to be Bob Runge's work.
No, I intentionally described it as a post-Remington era example in an effort to give the Repros a little love and recognition they so richly deserve. They're part of the game, too; you know.:whistle::)

Dean Romig
01-14-2014, 08:07 PM
I agree wholeheartedly.

They're the best buy out there for a very nicely made SXS.

Fred Verry
01-15-2014, 12:00 AM
Dean, if you look back into the General Parker Discussions on 1/28/13 "who let the dogs out", I think you will find several examples of dogs with elevated tails.
i.e. post #18 / by Robin Lewis $200 grade Springer? with bobbed tail, post #80 by Daryl Corona 1922 D grade setter, post #139 & 140 by Calvin Humburg, post #153 by Jeff Kuss, post #160 by Mark Conrad and post #172 by Peter Clark. HTH.

Mike Shepherd
01-15-2014, 12:23 AM
Here is a link to the thread Mr. Verry chased down for us:

http://parkerguns.org/forums/showthread.php?t=2367&highlight=dogs

Dean Romig
01-15-2014, 07:37 AM
Thanks Fred and Mike.
Very few dogs in that thread are holding their tails in what I would consider a "distinctly elevated" position. I'll dismiss the springers in Robin's contribution because they are not on point but are doing what springers were trained to do back then which is to flush or 'spring' the birds. The setter on the Remington CHE Russ shows is, as I expected of some Remington era Parkers, holding its tail in a distinctly elevated position as are the dogs on that nice Model 21, which is also a later gun. A few others are but less than 2% of all shown are.

John Dallas
01-15-2014, 08:53 AM
Probably a sacrilege, but if you're going to talk about dog tails, you have to include the excited flailing of a springer with a nose full of pheasant. Field bred springers have their trails docked long to accentuate that motion, No stubby show dog tails for us! Now, if we could get some sort of hologram on a Parker that showed that movement!

Mike Shepherd
01-15-2014, 09:56 AM
Setters were bred for catching birds with a net. So the Setter would go on point, the hunters would cast a net in front of his nose and sometimes catch the birds. It would be a real disadvantage for the netters if the tail stuck straight up I think.

Edit: I don't know this but judging by my late Setters' fondness for rabbit hunting they may have also netted rabbits.

John Dallas
01-15-2014, 10:17 AM
This oughta start a fight --- The setter/pointers were the peasants' dogs - peasants didn't have guns, and netting was their way of poaching the Lord's game for dinner. Spaniels were the dogs of royalty - used to flush game for the king's falcons

Rick Losey
01-15-2014, 10:26 AM
no fight - but it may be based on a false premise

nets were used prior to the appearance of practical wing shooting firearms

Mike Shepherd
01-15-2014, 10:57 AM
But the Setter breed was developed before the shotgun (edit - took out "became practical" and added "was used") was used for upland hunting.

Trapping is the most efficient way of harvesting quail and pheasant.

My apologies to Mr. Romig for going off-topic. I won't sin no more (here).