Unique G Grade Engravings

[ed good]

Following are pictures of a 1935 vintage G Grade Parker with VH barrels and unique receiver engravings. It has been suggested that the receiver was engraved and hardened at the Remington shops in NY and then returned to the Parker shops in CT for hard fitting and final assembly? Have never seen nor heard of this before. Have any of you?

[Bruce Day]

Ed, that is common engraving for late G grades and not unique at all. I have seen it said here that G grades all had the same engraving, but that is not so. The more G grades a person sees, the more he will realize that there were several engraving styles and subjects.

The Vulcan barrels on a G raise issues, but those may be factory original to the gun. Late guns departed from the previous Parker norm. I don't know what the gun as a whole is, but late G's are interesting and some great upland game guns were made.

[ed good]

BD: thanks for info. it would be interesting to see pictures of other G Grade engravings. are they in print anywhere? have not found them in common publications.

here are pictures of the only other style of G Grade engravings that I have seen over the years.

[Bruce Day]

The Parker Story


Also, maybe 6-7 years ago I posted photos here of SN 241,600, a nice little 20ga that I recall had engraving about the same as the one you showed, particularly with quail scenes. A missed opportunity.

[ed good]

BD: thanks, will take another look.

[Mike Shepherd]

Interesting that the gun has the Vulcan barrels - a 1 grade barrel on a higher grade gun.

According to The Parker Story by far the most common barrel for a GH was Parker Special Steel. It doesn't mention any GHs with Vulcan Steel barrels. Does list some with Titanic and Acme - a 2 grade gun with grade 3 or grade 4 barrels. And of course many GHs with Damascus barrels.

The steel barrel (perceived) quality sequence from lowest grade to highest is: Trojan, Vulcan, Parker Special Steel, Titanic, and Acme - correct?

The Parker Story, page 275, has a 1935 gun 237134 that has "PARKER SPEC. STEEL" on the rib.

In the picture of the left side of the frame of the Vulcan GH the barrel does not seem well fit to the frame to me. On the right side the line on the barrel lines up with the line between the ball and the frame. But on the left side it is misaligned. I wonder if the barrels have been retrofitted to that gun after it left the factory? If you look at side pictures of the second GH ed posted in his second post the alignment is good on both sides.

ed do you happen to have a picture of the barrel flats?

[Bruce Day]

deleted. I confused his multiple numbers and listings and it was entirely my error.

To set the record straight, Mr Good did not say this gun was considerably altered. That was another similar G grade, and those are my words based upon his disclosure of sleeved barrels on that different gun. I have nothing bad to say about the G in pictures above, nor would I anyway on a forum if I did see something wrong.

All I can see is that Mr Good presented this gun here in photos and listed it for sale on an internet sales site for those interested.

[Mike Shepherd]

Thanks Bruce.

After your last post I was able to find the gun on an auction site. It is listed as a GHE/VHE but the Vulcan barrels are stated in that listing to be factory. Could you PM me a link to the listing that says the gun is considerably altered please?

I will PM you a link to the auction listing.

Thanks,

Mike

[Rick Losey]

weren't vulcan barrels used as replacements by Remington

if the barrels are numbered to the gun and have Remington repair codes - it might explain it

of course - a composed gun is also an option

[Dave Suponski]

Mike, To set the record straight. Barrel steels were as follows Trojan, Vulcan,Parker Steel(found on P grade steel barreled guns)Parker Special Steel,Titanic,Acme and Peerless. Whitworth Steel was used on high grade pre-WW1 guns also.

[Mike Shepherd]

Rick, Dave - did you notice how the line at the bottom of the barrel does not align with the line of ball/fence (left side of action picture, first gun)? Do you think that it could have left Remington/Parker that way?

I have seen very few Remington/Parker guns.

Thanks Dave. The "Parker Steel" barrel was completely new to me. I had forgotten about "Peerless" and "Whitworth".

[Brian Dudley]

This gun was discussed on this forum previously.

http://parkerguns.org/forums/showthread.php?t=11123&highlight=Unique

[Mike Shepherd]

Oh! I missed it before. Thanks!

I was field trialing that month.

I have no idea why ed started a new thread.

[ed good]

gentlemen: it would be nice if we could keep this thread to the subject of its original intent, which is to determine the differences in G Grade engravings over the years.

If you wish to discuss specific guns, and their barrel configurations, etc, then please do so, but not in this thread. thank you.

over the years, I have only seen two styles of G Grade engraving, both are pictured here. anyone have any other pictures of other G Grade style engravings that they could post here?

[ed good]

and I took another look at the "parker story" volumes. nothing pictured, except the usual or standard G Grade engravings.

anyone else ever hear the story about receivers being sent to Remington for engraving and hardening?

[Brian Dudley]

Yeah. The receivers that were in inventory when the operation moved from Meriden to Ilion at the end of 1937. Tons of frames were part of the move. Other than that... Unheard of.

[ed good]

brian: what you say is true, but after the fact...what I heard is that the parker engravers had all bailed. so in 1935, Remington management sent receivers to illion for engraving and hardening?

[Dave Suponski]

Gee Ed... Thanks for setting me straight. Anyway there is nothing unique or unusual about the G Grades engraving. Just one of a few standard patterns.

[Harryreed]

Hear that first hand?

[ed good]

dase: I am not here to set anyone straight...I am jus trying to find out how rare the non typical engraved G Grade engravings might be? I have never seen them befo...have you?

[ed good]

harry: sorry, will not reveal the source of info...friendship is to valuable for that.

[Dave Suponski]

Yes Ed I have...

[Brian Dudley]

Engravers bailed??? And what does that have to do with case coloring?

Yes, during the depression, employment at Meriden was at a low, but so was gun production.
Why would anyone during a depression bail? If jobs were available, people kept them.

And, not to mention, there is documentation that Ilion was having a hard time getting correct colors on Parkers after the 1938 move. They had to consult with former Meriden employees like JP Hayes to get the process right.
So... Why would Ilion be doing Meriden's coloring in 1935?

[Dean Romig]

Bob Runge began work in the Parker Gun Works in 1934 and continued working as an engraver for Parker guns under the ownership of Remington, eventually becoming their chief engraver. The engraving Ed shows on his G has some of the identifying characteristics of Runge's work, most especially the bob-white on the floor plate, and I believe it is all, in fact, early Bob Runge engraving.

[Harryreed]

Was not trying to be sarcastic. I know I have come across "interesting" Parkers at gun shows over the years. More, years ago, then now. One particular example was where a V grade was being represented as a D grade after some obvious "updating" had taken place. When another Parker collector questioned him about the irregularties in the engraving the owner proceeded to tell the story that during the period you are inquiring about Parker used women, secretly, to do the engraving. Meant no dis-respect, but stories regarding Parkers and their origin and circumstances have always been out there.

I do not have the Parker knowledge to make a judgement on your question.

Harry

[edgarspencer]

I've only had a few G grade hammerless guns, and recently bought a GHE from about the same period as the example you show in the first post. Mine is like your second posted gun, and I can't recall seeing one like the first one.

[Dean Romig]

Edgar, I have seen a few with similar engraving to ed's first example.... and I believed those also were very early Bob Runge engraved.

[ed good]

well, now we are startin to get some where...any body got any known runge pitchers that they would care to share? did runge sign his work? if so, where?

[Dean Romig]

While he worked for Remington/Parker I don't believe we have any knowledge of Bob Runge signing his work. There are numerous examples of his signed engraving while he and DelGrego were producing upgraded Parkers.

[greg conomos]

I have an E grade that letters with Vulcan barrels. But they were replacements.

[Russ Jackson]

well, now we are startin to get some where...any body got any known runge pitchers that they would care to share? did runge sign his work? if so, where?

Hello Ed ,This gun is not a G Grade but a CHE and is believed to be a Runge Engraved Gun ,Serial # 240983 ,not too far off the Gun pictured ! Quail also on the bottom of this gun ,I don't know if this is a good comparison but have no G Grade guns at the moment in that serial # area ,hope this might help ! By the way that is a nice G Grade you have pictured ! Russ

[Russ Jackson]

As Dean Mentioned ,the Upgraded Parkers by DelGrego and Runge are Signed / Stamped , Ed ,here is a picture of a VHE 410 Upgraded to a BHE and signed by Runge ! This is Runge for sure ! Russ

[ed good]

very interesting that runge and del grego "upgraded parkers"...

the examples shown here are mag na fik!

[ed good]

did a google search for bob runge engraver and came up with this:

http://parkerguns.org/forums/showthread.php?t=10150

and this:

http://parkerguns.org/forums/showthread.php?t=936

[ed good]

and then there is this:

http://www.vintagefirearmsinc.com/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=82

gotta go take a cold shower now...

[charlie cleveland]

wow...charlie

[Rich Anderson]

I bet you have never seen a GHE like this one. Ordered through Kerr's of Beverly Hills, CA. Its a 0ne frame 16 with two sets of barrels with vent ribs and BTF per the factory.

[Russ Jackson]

Hey Rich ,Beautiful ! I have an excellent condition ,Kerrs of Beverly Hills Pad should you be able to use it Rich ,You are welcome to it !

[Kevin McCormack]

Once again, lots of erroneous information and conclusions in this thread regarding Runge engraving and Parker gun manufacture and assembly re: Meriden and Ilion production. (We had a similar rondele' about a year or so ago on all of this; it would be most useful to revisit that thread to debunk the rumors, innuendo, and outright BS).).

Women having been used as "secret" engravers during the Meriden-Ilion transition is pure hogwash, as is the concept of frames being hardened and colored in Ilion and sent back to Meriden as Brian pointed out. The bone charcoal case coloring process was abandoned by Remington after they recognized that uniformity in the process vs. preparation time and costs could not be reconciled in the end pricing of the guns. The cyanide coloring process was adopted by Remington after repeated attempts by the Storm brothers to instruct Remington craftsmen in the art of bone charcoal coloring had been abandoned. Coincidentally enough, Parker Bros. themselves had begun investigating the cyanide coloring process before the Remington buyout for the very same reasons during the middle years of the depression.

The progression of events leading to the demise of the Parker Gun and to the practice of upgrading guns, especially smallbores, is well known and documented in The Parker Story. The "early" Runge-Del Grego upgrades, begun over 30 years ago now, are most highly sought after. To my knowledge, all of the legitimate R-DG upgrades are signed prominently on the water tables.

Parker Bros. usually prohibited engravers from signing their work, but of course some of the old masters (Gough, etc.) sneaked their signatures in obscure places (e.g., trigger guard bow screw wells, brushy backdrops in game scenes, etc.). Remington pursued this practice of not signing engraving on Parker Guns during production at ilion, but of course allowed it without reservation on their centerfire rifles and shotguns coming our of the Custom Shop.

After his retirement from Remington, Bob Runge engraved hundreds of pistols for private individuals. Like his other signed works, they are very highly sought after today.

[Harryreed]

Was not trying to suggest the story of women engraving Parkers is true. Just trying to illustrate some of the tall tales about Parkers I have heard over the years. Thanks Kevin for saying it better then I could.

[ed good]

is it true that runge was darth vader's other son?

thank you to all who submitted positive, on topic posts here. I learned a lot, specially the part about bob runge working for both Parker and Remington. it is the best explanation I have heard as to who the artist might have been, who engraved the atypical G grade gun pictured at the beginning of this thread.

[ed good]

and here is some speculation:

runge was the new guy at parker, having started work in 1934. the g grade with the v grade barrels was made in November , 1935... wonder why the new guy got to engrave the gun assembled with the wrong barrels?

[Harryreed]

Probably, as a good employee he worked on whatever the company put before him. I am still not convinced the barrels were the wrong barrels. Could be any number of reasons why that Parker was configured that way. IMHO.

[Mike Shepherd]

gentlemen: it would be nice if we could keep this thread to the subject of its original intent, which is to determine the differences in G Grade engravings over the years.

If you wish to discuss specific guns, and their barrel configurations, etc, then please do so, but not in this thread. thank you.

and here is some speculation:

runge was the new guy at parker, having started work in 1934. the g grade with the v grade barrels was made in November , 1935... wonder why the new guy got to engrave the gun assembled with the wrong barrels?

I thought you instructed us that we weren't supposed to talk about barrels on this thread - just G engraving patterns?

If I have your permission to talk about barrels now I think the gun shipped from the factory with those barrels.

[ed good]

harry: from what I have read, when Remington took over the Parker shops their primary goals were to ship product and to use up materials so they would not have to move parts to New York...therefore, Remington management were not as strict as the Parker Bros. managers, and did make some deviations from the normal rigid Parker production standards. maybe the vh barrels on the gh gun was a mistake? maybe it was intentional? factory research letter does confirm gun was made in November, 1935, which supports the R D date code and vh in a circle stamps on the barrel flats.

for more details regarding the Remington era, see "the parker story" and muderlak's fine books "old reliable" and "shoot flying".

[ed good]

ok, lets talk barrels.

anybody seen any other parker guns with the "wrong" barrels that could be factory?

pitchers would be great!

better yet, I will start a new thread!

[Mike Shepherd]

How come you can go off topic but we can't?

[Mike Shepherd]

harry: from what I have read, when Remington took over the Parker shops their primary goals were to ship product and to use up materials so they would not have to move parts to New York...therefore, Remington management were not as strict as the Parker Bros. managers, and did make some deviations from the normal rigid Parker production standards. maybe the vh barrels on the gh gun was a mistake? maybe it was intentional? factory research letter does confirm gun was made in November, 1934, which supports the R D date code and vh in a circle stamps on the barrel flats.

for more details regarding the Remington era, see "the parker story" and muderlak's fine books "old reliable" and "shoot flying".

ed you are the master of baiting, trolling, and leg humping. Many times I have shaken my head in disbelief at your posts. :bowdown:

[ed good]

anyone wishing to discuss parkers with atypical factory barrels, please see new thread:

Parkers with "wrong" barrels

[Kevin McCormack]

[QUOTE=ed good;125319]is it true that runge was darth vader's other son?

Not exactly - the Bob Runge pertinent to this thread is Robert Phoenix Runge, son of Parker Bros. master engraver Robert Rudolph Runge, who joined Parker Bros. in Meriden in 1911. A master of deep-tendril cutaway scroll, the fabulous A's, AA's, and A-1 Specials of the post-WW I era all show his hand as well as those of Fred Aschutz, William Leidtke and other Parker Bros. masters.

Having been employed as an apprentice engraver to his father on July 17, 1934, approximately one month after Parker was purchased by Remington, it is highly unlikely that "our" Bob engraved anything but screw heads and diamond-dot barrel band borders by the time the GHE/VHE gun featured in this thread was made c. 1935.

On the other hand, odd-out, one-off style of the birds engraved on this gun, along with the overly-wide circular border around the floorplate scene suggests that it could indeed have been the product of a fledgling apprentice - Robert Phoenix Runge's first engraved gun?

So far as the "VH-GH" conundrum goes - clearly a re-barreled gun for whatever the reason.

[ed good]

kevin: thank you for your input re the runges.


"So far as the "VH-GH" conundrum goes - clearly a re-barreled gun for whatever the reason. " please do join in the new thread. barrel stamps and research letter seem to support likelihood that barrels are factory original.

[Mike Shepherd]

Mr. Romig that does make sense but the barrels are fit so poorly and in such an unworkmanlike manner. I can't imagine that a Parker or Remington employee did that work. Is it possible that in the past some rascal that knew the Parker repair date codes and the date of the gun's manufacture added the date codes to the water table to add to the value of the gun? I can't imagine that the Remington shop let this gun out with this poor of a fit:

http://parkerguns.org/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=29733&stc=1&thumb=1&d=1388849174

Compare that to the fit of this gun:
http://parkerguns.org/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=29737&stc=1&thumb=1&d=1388851067

I think the case colors on the lower gun are "aftermarket" by the way.

[ed good]

not seeing the poor barrel fit that you are...


and the case colors on the gun in your lower picture look like after market work to me as well.

[Mike Shepherd]

In the lower gun can you see how the "bead line" on the bottom of the barrels flows into the line between the ball and the flat of the reciever? That is standard. On the top gun the beadline slopes down and away from the ball/flat line and misses it by probably an 1/8".

Also it appears to me that the barrel breech extends beyond the ball down low. That the barrel breech sticks out to the side, but just on the bottom.

[edgarspencer]

not seeing the poor barrel fit that you are...




From the first picture, neither am I.

[Rich Anderson]

Russ thanks for the offer of the pad, the gun has a checkered butt.

[Russ Jackson]

Rich ,You are quite welcome ,,I sure wouldn't change anything on that gun if I didn't need to , just wanted you to know it was available ! Russ