Forum Proposal

[Mike Franzen]

Happy New Year to my Parker Bros and sisters! One of my favorite features of this site and a major benefit for members is the "Parker's for Sale" forum. We get to see guns for sale that the general population never sees. But, we are not getting to see all the great guns we could be seeing and having a chance to purchase. The reason being, there are members who refuse to list their guns on the forum because they don't like the nitpicking that can sometimes take place. Or, someone starts talking about their gun or one they saw just like it. I realize there are stipulations in the Rules about what is proper etiquette but, it's hard to monitor and there are many gray areas. My proposal would be to allow only the seller to post comments about the gun for sale. All questions and concerns could be handled by a "Ask Seller A Question" feature. If, it was pointed out that the serial number wasn't listed or the barrel length, etc, the seller could post the additional information. I believe this will make the forum much more user friendly and we will see guns that now are going to Gun Broker or other sites. I appreciate everything that the people who run this site do the members and non-members alike. This is not a criticism of anyone. Just something new to consider starting a new year.

[David Hamilton]

I would not wish for all comments to be restricted, but perhaps a policy of only discussing the gun offered and not bringing in extraneous information. Not a free-for-all but useful discussion. What I fear is that all the knowledge possessed by the members of this forum would be denied someone interested in a gun. David

[John Campbell]

I agree with Mike!

If you want more information on a gun, ask the seller through a PM. If he realizes that his audience needs that info, then it's up to him to publish it.

There is another double gun site with a "for sale" section that has fallen into absolute squalor from subjective and downright derogatory comments about items for sale. No one seems to care.

In my mind, PGCA is in a completely different category of gentlemanly respect. And should remain such.

Good idea Mike !!

[Mike Franzen]

David you make a valid point about valuable info on guns but what happens many times is opinions are put forth that aren't relevant. Valuable info can be had from every other forum on this site and facts and opinions are welcome. I agree with Scott that it should be between the seller and potential buyer.

[Mark Callanan]

I agree with Mike!

If you want more information on a gun, ask the seller through a PM. If he realizes that his audience needs that info, then it's up to him to publish it.

There is another double gun site with a "for sale" section that has fallen into absolute squalor from subjective and downright derogatory comments about items for sale. No one seems to care.

In my mind, PGCA is in a completely different category of gentlemanly respect. And should remain such.

Good idea Mike !!



The parker site will never become what other site your are talking is
This site is well moderated which the other site is not
And the strength of the people on this site would never allow what is going on there
I feel back and forth discussion is important and shouldn’t be limited
And usually when a member goes to far all here know it and tend to disregard their input
I learn something new most every day on here from all posts including for sale posts
If something gets out of hand I am sure our moderators will be very quick to deal with it

[John Dunkle]

Hi Mike,

This appears as the "Rules" at the top of that same area of the site that you reference:

Sticky: Listing For Sale Items... (http://parkerguns.org/forums/showthread.php?t=2531)

Read that, and let me know what you think? It hasn't changed since I programmed that area of the forum - but is exactly to your point. Is it a "grey area" to moderate it? You bet...

Best to you,

John

[Mike Franzen]

Hi John,
I've read the Rules for the forum and they do address the issues. However, it puts the moderators in a tough spot when they have to interpret them and call someone out. I only make this proposal because I have heard from some of the members who will not list their guns and that's a fact. I think it's a shame because we all miss out. I ask would we rather have more commentary or more guns for us to consider selling and buying?

All that being said and regardless if this gets anywhere, this is THE BEST website and forum of it's kind on the web. You only have to go to some other site to realize how good we have it. The gentlemanly demeanor and vast knowledge shared here has probably done more for the Parker collecting and shooting community than anything else. Thanks John for all you have done and continue to do.

[John Campbell]

Mike:
Thank you. I'm equally grateful to you for being a part of the best double gun site in the world ! Perhaps I was too frank in my distaste for another venue.

Personally, I very much enjoy posting a few guns for sale here. Each and every time I've made new friends and have enjoyed a most cordial transaction. I urge others to join in the PGCA congeniality and post both knowledge and guns for others to consider.

[Dean Romig]

The "Members Only" section of the forum which is for the sale of guns by PGCA Members is a very valuable benefit to our members and nothing beats it - but for those who wish to offer a gun for sale exclusively to PGCA Members before advertising it anywhere else, where you can be sure not to get any irrelevant or negative chatter about it, is the Parker Pages "The Parker Marketplace" if you're not in a hurry to sell. Just sayin'.... and meaning no disrespect to the PGCA website, its administrator or moderators.

[Chris_Caile]

I have an issue with people posting in the "For Sale" are guns that they do not own. You see at least once a month a "Selling for a Friend...", this is against the rules but still flies by the Mods.

[Dean Romig]

Generally those have been pre-qualified by the moderators before they are posted.

[Rick Losey]

and almost every one I have noticed - like the one Dave just posted, belong to PGCA members who for one reason or another don't use the forum.

[John Dunkle]

and almost every one I have noticed - like the one Dave just posted, belong to PGCA members who for one reason or another don't use the forum.
Exactly. As in the other posts, Dave represented it exactly as it was/is - and as well, is responsible for the transaction as it occurs on the Forum.

That is what this Forum is about - or, at least - what it should be, in my vision - which this entire forum reflects.

Have a wonderful evening,

John

[Mills Morrison]

Another option for selling guns through PGCA is the classified section of Parker Pages. I bought a Parker advertised there and was very pleased with the transaction.

[Ray Masciarella]

I just read the rules. It says no public comment unless you are interesting in buying it-which actually makes little sense. Why is there ever a need for public comment? The rule permits comment if you want to buy. Otherwise, the rules requires no comment. If you are interested in buying it, just send a PM! There is no need for public comment (although the unnecessary public comments are overwhelmingly positive and very rarely negative).

Over the years I have been a member, the rules on the for sale forum have never been consistently enforced. The best example of that is the requirement that a price be posted. Many times members will post that they have guns available for sale at some upcoming event but not post prices. Depending on who you are, you may or may not get called on it by other members or the moderator. Personally, the failure to post a price does not offend me. I'm just pointing something out folks have a problem with.

"Selling for a friend" is another issue as Chris points out. I guess I have
learned tonight that nonmembers can sell guns through members if they are "pre-qualified" by the moderator? Where is that in the rules? (it isn't). You are either a member or your not and the moderator should not be permitted to "pre-qualify" a nonmember at his discretion. After all rules are rules and the
moderator is charged with enforcing them! A member selling for another member should not require any prequalifcation so that is a nonissue (although it is not expressly permitted by the rule either but who cares?) I'm confused as to what may be going on here and may be misunderstanding whether nonmembers are permitted to sell through members at the moderators
discretion. Are the sale of nonmember's guns sometimes pre-qualified?

Problems with "grey areas" to moderate arise when the rules are vague, ambiguous, arbitrary and/or nonsensical. Such rules create an unnecessary burden on the moderator (although some of them have been apparently decreed by moderators) and invite arbitrary enforcement. Since the rules on
the for sale forum are not consistently enforced, Mike's idea is a good one.

[John Dunkle]

I just read the rules. It says no public comment unless you are interesting in buying it-which actually makes little sense. Why is there ever a need for public comment? The rule permits comment if you want to buy. Otherwise, the rules requires no comment. If you are interested in buying it, just send a PM! There is no need for public comment (although the unnecessary public comments are overwhelmingly positive and very rarely negative).

Over the years I have been a member, the rules on the for sale forum have never been consistently enforced. The best example of that is the requirement that a price be posted. Many times members will post that they have guns available for sale at some upcoming event but not post prices. Depending on who you are, you may or may not get called on it by other members or the moderator. Personally, the failure to post a price does not offend me. I'm just pointing something out folks have a problem with.

"Selling for a friend" is another issue as Chris points out. I guess I have
learned tonight that nonmembers can sell guns through members if they are "pre-qualified" by the moderator? Where is that in the rules? (it isn't). You are either a member or your not and the moderator should not be permitted to "pre-qualify" a nonmember at his discretion. After all rules are rules and the
moderator is charged with enforcing them! A member selling for another member should not require any prequalifcation so that is a nonissue (although it is not expressly permitted by the rule either but who cares?) I'm confused as to what may be going on here and may be misunderstanding whether nonmembers are permitted to sell through members at the moderators
discretion. Are the sale of nonmember's guns sometimes pre-qualified?

Problems with "grey areas" to moderate arise when the rules are vague, ambiguous, arbitrary and/or nonsensical. Such rules create an unnecessary burden on the moderator (although some of them have been apparently decreed by moderators) and invite arbitrary enforcement. Since the rules on
the for sale forum are not consistently enforced, Mike's idea is a good one.

Thanks for taking the time to share your view.

- John

[wayne goerres]

If it aint broke don't fix it. IMHO it ain't broke. Just think if you forgot to mention that your gun had 30" barrels or the LOP was 14" how many PMs you would have to respond to one at a time. You would never get your gun sold.

[Dean Romig]

Wow....I guess I spoke out of turn when I stated that a few might have been pre-qualified by a moderator.

I take it back....

Everything OK now?

[Mills Morrison]

I second Wayne

[Mike Franzen]

Any information that was forgotten to be listed could be added by the seller. There would be no need for answering every PM. If, the seller wanted to add it he could very easily. The bottom line is there are a lot of members who won't list their guns for sale due to the way the forum is set up. Wouldn't it be better for all of our members if we got to see these guns and have a chance to buy them? John is a wizard. Maybe he could make it optional when someone listed a gun for sale, the seller could choose to disable comments if he so desired. When a policy or practice is off putting to members then it's good policy to make improvements. No one suffers, no one gets hurt.

[Dean Romig]

I kinda like it the way it is. Questions asked - answers given. Compliments made - compliments graciously accepted.

Nobody has a perfect gun for sale. Every used gun has indicators that it is a used gun... everybody can see them but we don't need to point them out.... that's just bad form and poor etiquette.

As long as nobody picks a gun apart or asks stupid questions or makes impertinent comments..... it ain't broke.

[Mark Ouellette]

Gentlemen,

As many of you know I am a moderator of the PGCA forums. In that I and Jeff Kuss work for our webmaster John Dunkle for which none of us receive any compensation.

Because I am a moderator I try to stay out of petty squabbles on these forums. If any of those squabbles get intense I swiftly and fairly moderate. Sometimes that is in the form or a private message (PM) to the violator(s). If someone has clearly broken a rule such as engaging in political debates or uses a racial slur then I give them an Infraction. I also DO NOT edit or close thread because I think they are a waste of electrons. At least and probably only one person is enjoying blogging on this forum...

I am often contacted to look at posts that may not be acceptable. For these I usually take action. I have however been contacted because someone posted something that someone else didn’t like. These situations often require communication with John and/or Jeff for a second opinion.

I close threads at the request of the originator. I will also close a thread if someone is getting disrespectful to another. I don’t do this without reading the entire thread to ascertain the entire context of the dispute.

I stated the above as background for the following;

Someone stated that the rules are not enforced evenly. I take deep exception to that statement. I treat as all, as do John and Jeff, equal with the exception of known troublemakers, i.e. repeat offenders. Those persons have used up their share of the grace afforded to all participants. Known troublemakers receive attention faster than persons who usually are respectful to others and follow the rules.

Toward the above, if an item is posted without a price I advise them usually with a PM. If the post isn’t revised within a day, I will make a “soft delete” on it. The post is still there but not visible. When the seller finally contacts me inquiring about their post I will undelete it.

If however one posts a list of Parker for sale at an event and those items are not priced then what is the harm? If they post a string of photos without prices then they need to post prices. Some persons will only sell a firearm face to face and won’t discuss prices on the Internet. In those situations if you are interested in their wares try sending a PM or calling them.

If someone is selling something and others pollute their thread with superfluous written garbage I will delete those posts at the request of the seller. Often however some chit-chat in a thread keeps it in the attention of potential buyers. If a For Sale thread allowed NO response then there would be no “To The Top”.

Concerning the use of PM’s only in a For Sale post; I require it when I post on this forum items for sale. If a potential buyer contacts me on the forum with questions I advise them to send me a PM. This keeps the tire kickers away and provides the means for a potential buyer and me to converse privately. Also, if one can’t follow simple directions then why would I do business with them? That would be asking for trouble…

I read the majority of the posts, especially those For Sale and Wanted to Buy. I see respondents asking questions which were answered in the original posts. Other times, a seller states to call them at the phone number listed for information, or to buy. People still post questions or offers to buy on the forum. Why? The seller stated to call them. If one doesn’t follow directions and misses out on a good buy to someone who followed the directions then who is at fault?

I think the PGCA forums work as they are. We moderators try to be fair with our duties. The members pretty much police the forums and those who come here wanting to bully others or act like snobs either change their ways or go away.

If one doesn't want feedback on a PGCA forum For Sale thread then STATE THE RULES for which you will sell your item(s), i.e. “I will only respond to PM or Phone Call”. A little feedback does however help sell an item. :whistle:

If one desires no feedback on a For Sale thread then I recommend Guns International or Gun Broker. I have sold non-Parkers on Guns International for a $10 fee with good results. Otherwise sellers may list their items in the PARKER PAGES.

PS: The PGCA forum is perhaps the best gun forum on the Internet due to John Dunkle. John provides the servers, software, and special coding on which our forum is based. Those items are not cheap nor is John's time. When someone suggests that John could write new code to provide a new function I hope they realize that John would do that at his expense. A request such as that would best be sent to John privately for him to consider.

Everyone have a nice day :)
Mark

[Rick Losey]

Gentlemen,

As many of you know I am a moderator of the PGCA forums. In that I and Jeff Kuss work for our webmaster John Dunkle for which none of us receive any compensation.

.

and you earn every penny of that dealing with us :)


Mark (and Jeff & John)

hope you realize that the vast majority of us really appreciate your efforts, we know its a labor of love - and thank you all for giving us a great forum to babble on about our favorite shotguns.

[Mills Morrison]

I also appreciate those like Mike who make polite suggestions as to how the forum (or PGCA) can be improved. Even if those ideas aren't carried out, it does not hurt to make suggestions as long as it remains respectful.

[Russ Lindsay]

Benevolent dictatorship is what should be expected from the moderation of a public forum such as ours. Any internet format like PGCA is made up of a technologically diverse membership with the gamut of technical skills. Within the last week I have read folks having difficulty with internet searches, cut and pasting information and private messaging. Not to mention photo posting. With all of that, the thread hijacking and dispersing thoughts leave them with a pretty difficult set of circumstances to moderate and administer.

There is no investment required to participate in the forums and no ownership in the site and its' technology. Discussions like this one allow cheap shots as well as supporting comments to drift in with anonymity. This is a classic case for private messages to be used rather than a thread! We all need to come to this forum with an understanding that we are at the mercy of the moderators moods, perceptions and understanding. They provide us much service but web site management is not a democracy, so pray for benevolent dictators. I believe ours are!

[Dennis V. Nix]

Forgive me all if I am missing something here. I do like the way the For Sale section is set up EXCEPT for people who list a gun for a friend. That has always irritated me no end. I don't believe in any exceptions to that rule either no matter who makes the exception. It is a rule or it isn't. It doesn't bother me a bit that someone forgets to list the barrel length, gauge, frame size or price. If a buyer is interested in the gun they can simply post a question regarding anything the seller simply forgot to include in their post.

Again maybe I am missing something here but I see no reason a member who wants to sell his gun won't list it on the For sale forum if they want to sell the gun. I have sold guns that I did not list on the forum but it had nothing whatsoever to do with policies of the forum. I simply didn't want to go that route at the time and they were not Parker guns.

I like the section as is.

Dennis

[Mark Ouellette]

Forgive me all if I am missing something here. I do like the way the For Sale section is set up EXCEPT for people who list a gun for a friend. That has always irritated me no end. I don't believe in any exceptions to that rule either no matter who makes the exception. It is a rule or it isn't. It doesn't bother me a bit that someone forgets to list the barrel length, gauge, frame size or price. If a buyer is interested in the gun they can simply post a question regarding anything the seller simply forgot to include in their post.

Dennis

Hi Dennis,

From the Forum Decorum: http://www.parkerguns.org/forums/showthread.php?t=9841

Do NOT post Internet links (addresses) of guns for sale or auction other than a member giving notice of their guns for sale in the Members Only section. Further, please DO NOT POST THEM IN THE PGCA FOR SALE FORUM! In short, if you do NOT own the firearm for sale, or have the right to sell it – do not post it in the PGCA For Sale Forum. The PGCA Member “Off Topic” forum would be just dandy, though…

The forum rules evolve over time. Our Webmaster allows one to sell a Parker or other collectible gun for a friend that one has control over the sale ("right to sell it"). A PGCA member may sell for another member who doesn't use the Internet or this site. A member may also sell for the widow next door, aunt Martha and uncle Henry who don't know a Parker from a petunia, of anyone so long as that member has control over the sale. That means post a price and good photos to allow a clean sale. One should not waste electrons and bandwidth posting a VH 12 with cut barrels for $5,000 because uncle Henry thinks it is worth that much. Also, if selling often for lots of friends I believe that seller will be answering questions from our Webmaster.

If selling for a friend and you have control over the sale then just list it as yours. If posting for another PGCA member with instructions to contact that member, as I have, that's okay. If posting for a friend with instructions to contact a non-PGCA member, then that would not be acceptable. If the owner is NOT a PGCA member then the poster MUST control the sale.

Further, even dealers may sell via the PGCA forum so long as they post the sale here first for a couple weeks. Do not post for sale here when something has been or is for sale on Gun Broker or Guns International. A dealer should know better than to abuse a free service for commercial gain.

I hope this clears up this mud. :rotf:

The forum will evolve over time and crusty old S.O.B. such as me must also evolve, as painful as that is! :crying:
Mark

[Dennis V. Nix]

Mark,

It did clear things up a lot for me. I appreciate you getting back to me in a timely manner.

Semper Fi my brother,

Dennis

[Dean Romig]

Discussions like this one allow cheap shots as well as supporting comments to drift in with anonymity.


Nobody posts on the Members Only, Guns For Sale forum in anonymity.

[Mark Ouellette]

Nobody posts on the Members Only, Guns For Sale forum in anonymity.

I think that Russ's comments pertained to the discussion about the For Sale forum rather than any For Sale threads.

[Dean Romig]

Thanks for the correction Mark..... Sorry Russ for my misdirected reply to your post.

[Eric Eis]

if you do NOT own the firearm for sale, or have the right to sell it – do not post it in the PGCA For Sale Forum. The PGCA Member “Off Topic” forum would be just dandy, though…

I've stayed out of this, but come on guys (Dennis) if someone want's to post a gun (that we would/might never see) for a friend or a widow, we should not be not allowed to post it. Come on......Posting an internet ad is a "no" I understand that, but allowing someone to post an ad that would be of interest to the members instead of posting it to one of the internet boards..:eek: We get first chance to see this gun and this is bad because of .................:banghead:

[wayne goerres]

I think everyone is doing what they want to with this rule. there is a ten gauge listed in the for sale forum today that is also listed on gun broker. Broker listing is 385551551

[Mark Ouellette]

I think everyone is doing what they want to with this rule. there is a ten gauge listed in the for sale forum today that is also listed on gun broker. Broker listing is 385551551

Wayne,

Close but no cigar :) That is a different gun.

When the 10 gauge was posted on the PGCA forum I could have sworn that I had recently seen it listed on Gun Broker. I searched for the listing but it was not there. I gave the poster the benefit of the doubt.

If you see something that breaks the rules please use the Report Post function on the lower left part of the screen.

Thanks,
Mark

[Mike Shepherd]

Never mind!

[John Dunkle]

Wayne,

Close but no cigar :) That is a different gun. ...

Thanks Mark,

You saved me from posting my reply ;)

John

[Mark Ouellette]

Wayne,

Close but no cigar :) That is a different gun.

When the 10 gauge was posted on the PGCA forum I could have sworn that I had recently seen it listed on Gun Broker. I searched for the listing but it was not there. I gave the poster the benefit of the doubt.

If you see something that breaks the rules please use the Report Post function on the lower left part of the screen.

Thanks,
Mark

After posting the above I checked Guns America and saw the exact same listing. I knew that I had seen that listing before.

Listing on our site at the same time as a commercial site earned a swift delete of the add on the PGCA forum.

Mark

[Ray Masciarella]

Can anyone point out to me where the rules provide that a gun cannot be listed on the PGCA and a commercial site at the same time? I can't find it. Thanks.

[Dean Romig]

Hi Mike,

This appears as the "Rules" at the top of that same area of the site that you reference:

Sticky: Listing For Sale Items... (http://parkerguns.org/forums/showthread.php?t=2531)

Read that, and let me know what you think? It hasn't changed since I programmed that area of the forum - but is exactly to your point. Is it a "grey area" to moderate it? You bet...

Best to you,

John


Yes Ray, right here.... just click on the "Sticky; Listing For Sale Items" link.

[Chris_Caile]

I see the rules here like "ObamaCare", special exemptions, rules ignored and posts deleted on whims… :dh:

[Ray Masciarella]

Thanks, Dean, but I can't find it. I see where it says if the gun is listed elsewhere "please let us know" but I don't see an express prohibition. Does "please let us know" mean simultaneous listing is prohibited? I thought it meant a seller had to mention the other listing in the post.

[Dean Romig]

Maybe John will define the rule for us.

[Ray Masciarella]

This is an example of a rule so unclear and ambiguous that it is susceptible two reasonable but wholly different interpretations. One that has the potential of creating an unnecessary burden on the Admin/Mod and frustration for the members. I know it is human nature to resist change but our forum benefit if rules were written such that they have only one meaning, eg, "a member shall not list a gun for sale on the PGCA forum while simultaneously offering it for sale on any other website" vs. "if you are also posting the same item for sale on another website, or advertising it somewhere else, please let us know." Of course this assumes that the language of the rule pointed out is the part that prohibits simultaneous listings.

[Dean Romig]

It seems to me that the only people who might be really upset by the possibility of someone who doesn't own the gun being offered for sale through this Members Only "Guns For Sale" page would be those who joined the PGCA only to become a 'member' for the sole purpose to be able to buy or sell guns on the forum. I just can't understand why anyone else would be upset by the moderators' or the administrator's bending of the guidelines or policies governing the use of the Guns For Sale page in order to facilitate an unusual circumstance presented by a PGCA member.

[John Dunkle]

This is simply ridiculous.

First - we are "not bending" any rules...

Second - why would I even consider putting into place more restrictive rules, that are even MORE unenforceable, unless you folks are going to police each and every posting in the For Sale forum?

Third - the existing rule is simple: ".."if you are also posting the same item for sale on another website, or advertising it somewhere else, please let us know..". In short - it's common courtesy and ethically correct to let folks know if you have it listed elsewhere - like DoubleGun, or GunsInternational or.. Wherever. And you want to change that to: "..a member shall not list a gun for sale on the PGCA forum while simultaneously offering it for sale on any other website..." Tell me - who would be able to enforce that by checking all the "other website"(s) on the Internet?!

Fourth - it is really simple to incorrectly hypothecate, as you don't know any better, nor care to know any better - that we "bend the rules", or we are two-faced or - whatever we've been accused of on this thread (it's a LONG list) - as, you folks have no idea what you are talking about. It's Internet "banter" and must be somewhat "titillating" for you all to spend so much time focused on it - but, in fact - on Nov 4 2013 - I warned, in private - the individual whose post Mark deleted specifically about posting in the PGCA FS WITHOUT NOTICE simultaneously on multiple sites. Do you folks think you are somehow magically entitled to know of each private warning between myself and another Member? I don't think so...

Should Mark have divulged that private information? I don't think so...

This is easy....

1) If you don't like the rules of the PGCA For Sale Forum - don't post your guns for sale there.

2) Before you accuse ANYONE of favoritism, not equally enforcing the rules that currently exist, blah, blah, blah - try acting like a gentleman and contacting me, or any of the MODs in private. Public "Lynch Mob" threads really don't turn out too well unless you know exactly the background, depth and what we are actually "doing" - most of which will NOT be posted in public. And only three people - Jeff, Mark and myself know exactly what actions we take "in private" to equally enforce all the rules and conduct on this Forum - not just the For Sale Forum.. To be frank - you are not invited to eavesdrop on those "private" conversations - nor is it appreciated when folks take it upon themselves to "gossip" about baseless and ill-informed speculation.

3) I am not adverse to change - but that change has to be an improvement, not a regression. To put into place another "rule" which is more open to "abuse" is really silly - unless you are the one who wants to enforce it.

4) This entire thread is pretty much a re-hash of this thread:
http://parkerguns.org/forums/showthread.php?t=10024
Which - again - is simply amazing as it deals with the Forum Rules about posting guns for sale, etc..

5) I've got to be honest - if you folks want to improve the site - this is not the way to undertake productive change. One would probably think that a more productive approach would be private discussions, where events that shaped the current "rules" can be discussed?

6)... Ahhh - there is no "6". I'm done with this discussion as I'm certain it's "falling on deaf ears", as it were..

Have a great day.

John

[Rick Losey]

there was a saying where I used to live in PA about folks that always had a complaint -

"some people wouldn't be happy if they was hung with a new rope"

John - by now no one can complain they did not have their say (which is different than getting your way)- so maybe time to lock it down and get back to Parkers.

[John Dunkle]

...John - by now no one can complain they did not have their say (which is different than getting your way)- so maybe time to lock it down and get back to Parkers. I left it open through the day to accommodate any responses.

It is now closed.

My thanks Rick and all...

- John