Purpose of frame sizes...

[Brian Drake]

Taking the 12 gauge guns as an example, I noticed available frames sizes ranged from 1/2 to 2. Is this a function of what loads were intended for each frame size (e.g. BP vs. smokeless or low-base vs. high-base), or simply a matter of some folks wanting lighter, fast-swinging bird guns? Did the 1 1/2 frame have any particular story in Parker development? Thanks again!

Brian

[Mark Ouellette]

Brian,

Parker also made 12 gauge guns on #3 frames. I own 12 gauge Parkers on frame sizes 1,2, and 3.
The #1 frame guns weigh 7 to 7.5 lbs.
The #2 frame guns weigh under 8 lbs to almost 9 lbs.
The #3 frame gun weighs 10 lbs.

From the above rather small sample set one could deduce their intended uses. A light gun for long upland hunts with loads that won't loosen every filling in one's mouth. The #2 frames are great all around guns from pheasants to ducks to targets with light to occasional use of heavy loads. Finally, the big old #3 frame at 10 lbs was likely ordered for the duck blind or boat with heavy loads.

The Parker order books list guns by weight not frame size.

Just my not so humble opinion...
Mark :)

[Brian Dudley]

Frame sizes were used in order to allow a given weight in a gun.
It is important to note that there is no mention of frame sizes in Parker catalogs. So, a customer would not order a specific frame size. They would however order a desired weight and. Parker would use the appropriate frame size for the length/weight of barrels in order to yield the required finished weight.

[Dave Noreen]

I've said this many times before -- With all their frame sizes, the Brothers P did all manner of weird and wonderful things which keeps us coming back for more. The larger frame doesn't always necessarily make for a heavier gun. My 2 frame 1889 vintage 12-gauge has vert heavy "straight" barrels with almost no "swamp" and weighs a fraction of an ounce over nine pounds. Quite muzzle heavy. My Grandfathers 1890 vintage 12-gauge is on a 3-frame and weighs 8 pounds 8 ounces and its 30-inch barrels swamp in very fast. Weight between the hands.

While most people think of the late 1/2 frame 12-gauges as being light "bird guns" there is at least one over eight pound 1/2 frame 12-gauge double trap gun.

[Bill Murphy]

I'm not sure the #6 frame 12 gauge that Jack Puglisi listed for sale was made as a 12 gauge. I would like to see the PGCA letter on that gun. Anyone remember the serial number?

[Dave Noreen]

I saved these pictures of the 6-frame VH-Grade 12-gauge --

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v316/Ansleyone/Parker/6frame12-ga6.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v316/Ansleyone/Parker/6frame12-ga3_zps35c979d5.jpg

Don't have the serial number though.

[charlie cleveland]

that 6 frame 12 ga is my kinda gun i love the old heavy weights...charlie

[Bill Murphy]

Sorry Dave couldn't provide us with a serial number to research.

[Richard Flanders]

Maybe that #6 frame 12 was special ordered by a guy who blew up a gun and said "never again!"...? What a beast!

I have a 2-frame 30" damascus DH12 that definitely feels light and weighs right at or just a hair over 7#, which is a little less than my 26" 1-1/2 frame VH12 weighs. Go figure.

[Brian Drake]

So frame sizes were a function of desired weight, and not based on the load intended to be used?

Brian

[Bruce Day]

Brian, for comfortable recoil, heavier loads for heavier guns and vice versa.

All Parkers were proofed and intended to be safely used for the maximum service load for that gauge, an example of which would be 10,500 psi for a 12 ga in the 1920's. When SAAMI standards were established for service and proof loads, Parkers met those also.

If a person wanted a light gun he could comfortably carry all day, that's what he told Parker and Parker chose the frame size to match. If he wanted a gun that he could comfortably shoot 100 rounds of trap, Parker selected frame size for that also. Both guns were built to shoot the same 1 1/8 3 dram load. buyers commonly told Parker the desired weight of their gun in addition to stock dimensions.

Yet, all 12ga Parkers could and likely did shoot anything from 1 oz 2 1/2 dram loads to the max at 1 1/4 oz 3 1/2 dram.

May I suggest you obtain and read The Parker Story, which explains all these matters and more far better.

[greg conomos]

I think all of the above is true...but I also think there were Parker-savvy people back then who knew there were different frame sizes and would/could have requested them. Especially so if they lived near Meriden and had spent their time in the showroom and/or around Parker employees.

This would have been a small percentage of Parker buyer but I'm sure it existed and I'm sure Parker would not have minded someone specifying a given frame size provided it was build-able.

There were others who specified frame size indirectly....'I want a 12 ga just like my brother's SN 123123....'

[Rick Losey]

There were others who specified frame size indirectly....'I want a 12 ga just like my brother's SN 123123....'

but would that work if they did not record the frame size in the order books?

[Bill Murphy]

Rick, come over here and sit on Uncle Bill's knee. Rick, there are order books and there are stock books. The order book is kind of a synopsis of how the gun will be configured. It doesn't include every detail, but it does include the buyer's name and a fair description of the gun he wants. The work order cards get very specific, much more than the order book entry, with the smaller details mentioned. The order book very seldom specifies a frame size, but some savvy customers did actually know about frame sizes and those requests very occasionally end up in the order book. On the other hand, the stock book is something different altogether. It's entries include all the details of the finished gun. When the order book entry is made, the gun is not finished, sometimes not even started. The serial number is entered in the order book only after the gun is completed, some weeks or whatever after the original order entry is made. The stock book entry includes all of barrel steel type and length, stock dimensions, finished weight, pattern testing, and yes, the frame size in some eras. As far as duplicating a specific gun, the order book and the stock book entries would probably have been researched to create the second gun. However, in some eras, the frame size would only be a guess, and looking at the gun would be the only reliable source of information. Another missing detail in both the order book and stock book would be the unstruck barrel weight. Only the gun would give that piece of information.

[Rick Losey]

Rick, come over here and sit on Uncle Bill's knee. .

now THATS just creepy :shock: :rotf:

but thanks for the history lesson. I have had letters that referenced the order book number, and have included pattern results. But yet to get one with a frame size.

[Bill Murphy]

Rick, "pattern results" will only come from the stock book entry. "Requested patterns" may be mentioned in the order book entry. Mention of frame size is truly rare. I have a DH two barrel set on a #3 frame. The order book entry requests a "2 1/2" frame, which is the width of the #3 frame. This is not the first time I have seen a reference to the 2 1/2 frame. Maybe Chuck Bishop will remember other order book entries specifying frame size.

[Dave Noreen]

So frame sizes were a function of desired weight, and not based on the load intended to be used?


FRame sizes were not just for weight, but also to achieve different balance.

[Chuck Bishop]

Murphy, I recently did a letter on a gun where the order book requested a 2 1/2 frame. That's the only reference to a frame size I've seen in a order book and one Parker never made (I know never say never!). When I questioned the current owner, he said it was on a size 3 frame so I figured Parker rounded up to the next even size. Off the top of my head, I can't remember who requested the letter. Did the original customer think Parker made a 2 1/2 frame?

[Bill Murphy]

No, the 2 1/2 frame was not a commonly known entity, but obviously, it was a term used among factory people to designate the #3 frame. Whether some retail customers knew about the big frame is doubtful, but the terminology made it to the order books. No one "rounded up" 2 1/2 to 3. The #3 frame is 2 1/2" wide according to the frame dimension chart in The Parker Pages. I have no idea why factory people didn't use the same numbers we do, but they apparently didn't. I also don't know why other frame sizes weren't described in "insider's lingo", but they don't seem to have been, at least in my experience.

[Bill Murphy]

Since frames did not have a frame number stamped on them, the only way a floor mechanic at Parker Brothers could identify a #3 frame was to measure it with whatever measuring device he had in hand. A #3 frame was 2 1/2" wide.

[Dean Romig]

Bill, we presume that measurement is across the face of the bolsters, correct?





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[Dean Romig]

Here is a set of 30” ten-gauge 2-frame Damascus barrels I have that I am in the process of fitting to my 12 gauge 2-frame DH No. 90739.
They are very heavy and are swamped to only about 1/16” on their entire length.

You can see the unstruck weight of 5 lbs. 11 oz. which is pretty heavy for a set of 30” 10 gauge barrels made for a 2-frame.


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[Bill Murphy]

In 2013, on this thread, Chuck says he has only seen one gun ordered by the "2 1/2" designation to denote a wish for a #3 frame. I have two of them just in my meager collection. Do you think maybe Chuck has seen a few more since 2013? In my opinion, customers didn't know anything about a #3 frame or a 2 1/2 frame. The customer only knew "big" or "heavy" and the person writing the order at Parker Brothers knew that meant a 2 1/2 inch frame in a 12 gauge gun. My #3 frame 16 gauge specifies "2 1/2" as the frame size on the order. I'm sure the customer only knew "real heavy", not any particular frame size.

[Bill Murphy]

Dean, your question about "across the bolsters" is answered on page 527 of The Parker Story. I don't have the book in front of me. All I know is that in doing research on these questions, it was determined that a 2 1/2 frame mentioned in Parker orders is matched up with a #3 frame gun in all cases I have seen the 2 1/2 terminology used. A 2 1/2" measurement was noticed in the chart on page 527 for #3 frame guns. I don't know if it was across the bolsters or some other place.

[Dean Romig]

I can’t imagine where else would be wider than across the face of the bolsters.

Parker No. 5949 is a 10 gauge Lifter on the 3-frame and measures 2 3/8” across the face of the bolsters, the widest part of the frame, so could this be the 2 3/8 frame?





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[Milton C Starr]

FRame sizes were not just for weight, but also to achieve different balance.

This I what I have noticed going up in a frame sizes you can bring the weight back to center if you are using long or heavy barrels .

I think the 10 gauge probably had the most varied weight range of any Parkers . Ive seen them from 7lbs up to 15lbs and from frame sizes 1 to 6 .

I have seen #3 frame 10 gauges cover a wide variety as well though 8-11lbs .