Remington Parker AAHE 28

[Michael Di Paolo]

I'm hoping to get some feedback on CSMC's Remington Parker AAHE 28.
These Parkers are built by CSMC under contract from Remington.
They start at 49K ... not sure how many have been built, or if they are still building them. Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Thank you in advance.

Merry Christmas !

[Bruce Day]

They are nicely made and shoot well. They are still being made, call CSMC for details.

We had one on exhibit at a Pheasants Forever event in Nebraska a few years ago, where the gun drew a lot of interest. The engraving style and configuration is consistant with late Remington-Parker production. The engraving is hand cut. The gun has a solid feel when shooting.

[Dave Suponski]

Bruce, You shot one of Tony's new Parker 28 gauges?! That must have been a treat.

[Dean Romig]

I've handled one and it really felt like the classic that it is. Exceptionally well balanced and very dynamic in mounting and swing. I bought a couple of $100 tickets when the RGS was raffling one but just couldn't seem to raise the $49K to buy one from Galazan.

[Bill Murphy]

As I recall, one appeared at the Vintagers a few years back. I don't recall who brought it down.

[John Dallas]

Remington offered a similar gun back in the early 80's (?) I've got the order sheet somewhere in my man pit. Seems to me that the price was about $12K. Not sure how many were ever built. Were the Del Gregos involved in that project?

[Eric Eis]

Remington offered a similar gun back in the early 80's (?) I've got the order sheet somewhere in my man pit. Seems to me that the price was about $12K. Not sure how many were ever built. Were the Del Gregos involved in that project?

John, Remington never produced the gun, deposits were sent back to customers that ordered the gun. Seems the safetyon the gun and the legal department at Remington put an early end to the gun.

[Bruce Day]

John, Remington produced a limited number of 20ga A grades in the 1980's and provided them to executives. The gun had a modified Model 32 single trigger assembly . These were prototypes for a production run which did not proceed. In the 1990's, the PGCA acquired the remaining available new A 20ga and through a mail in auction, sold it to a member in SoCal. That gun was sold again last year. There is a Parker Pages article by Austin Hogan about these few guns that might answer any questions you have. The PGCA produced a single fold flyer about the gun and auction and provided that to all members and DGJ subscribers. I still have my copy.

I know of no connection of this project to the Del Grego's.

[Bill Zachow]

The last time I was in the Remington archives, besides the record books, they still had a couple of rough finished Parker guns from the 80s run and numerous bins of internal parts. Do not know if they still have either gus or parts.

[Brian Dudley]

I had the chance to see and handle one of the AAHE 28s at CSMC last year.
It was nice. They are fully made by CSMC with Remington only providing the licensing of the name and the website.
I personally hope that they consider making a lower grade. That way they would sell better to more common folk. Much like their Foxes are made in different grades. At $49k, the number of buyers are going to be limited.
I did ask them about how many they have actually sold since the beginning of their offering. They said only about a dozen.

[John Dallas]

I'm now 175 miles away from my man pit, so I can't look up the order sheet and description I have. I think the safety issue was that the Parker didn't pass Remington's "Slam Test" which I think involved banging the gun on a hard surface. Gotta love them lawyers

[Bruce Day]

Lawyers had little to do with it, John. The Mod 32 trigger resolved slam fire concerns which were entirely of Remington's standards and not an industry standard. The problem was manufacturing expertise and expense. You'll note that the present Parker is manufactured with either the original Parker double or single trigger. The CSMC manufacturing abilities resolved manufacturing ability issues. The expense issue is open to discussion.

[Michael Di Paolo]

Thank you all for your feedback .... much appreciated !

[Bill Zachow]

There must be a fairly healthy royalty to Remington when you consider the $49,000 price versus one of Tony's deluxe Foxes or double rifles

[Brian Dudley]

I think that also it is the very low quantity of production and the fully made to order nature of the gun.
If they were to offer a lower grade, and more people bought it, I would expect price to proportionately much more reasonable.
I did inquire with them about if they were considering offering lower grades and gauges. They said they were in "talks" about it, but that is all they said.
I would think that there would be a long order list for a DHE 20g that was priced like their entry level Fox guns.

[Dean Romig]

CSMC had originally anticipated producing as many as ten per year but that dream never came to fruition.

Regarding the Remington Parker revival guns see the Parker Pages, Winter 2010 issue for a few pictures of one in Kenneth Goldenberg's collection.

[Michael Murphy]

I suspect that, even if CSMC chose to produce a "lower" grade Parker, it would likely cost $8,000 - $10,000 to produce in the US. The Parker is a relatively complex gun with many closely fitted parts. One approach might be to redesign the mechanism to a simpler (i.e. Fox) design, while keeping the Parker exterior. But, then would it be a Parker?

[Bill Murphy]

Remington actually took that route after production on Parkers stopped. Their plan was to buy Fox guns and profile the receivers to look like Parkers and sell them with the Parker name. The PGCA research committee may be in possession of memos to that effect.

[Dean Romig]

One approach might be to redesign the mechanism to a simpler (i.e. Fox) design, while keeping the Parker exterior. But, then would it be a Parker?

In my opinion, No it wouldn't be a Parker by any stretch of the imagination.

[Dean Romig]

I suspect that, even if CSMC chose to produce a "lower" grade Parker, it would likely cost $8,000 - $10,000 to produce in the US. The Parker is a relatively complex gun with many closely fitted parts.


CSMC already has the machining programs in their data-base for the Parker and could produce these guns nearly as cheaply as the RBL or any of the other guns they manufacture. The expense would be in producing the various frame sizes. Personally, I'd be happy with just the 00-Frame twenty-eight bore Parker... but others would prefer a larger frame size.

[Greg Baehman]

Is a CSMC-built Remington Parker AAHE considered a real Parker or is it a reproduction?

[Dean Romig]

Commissioned by Remington Arms to original Parker standards, in my opinion it is as real a new Parker as you can get today... only it is produced in a different, modern plant by, of course, different employees (nobody lives forever - even in earlier Parker days).

[Bill Murphy]

Perfectly acceptable 28 gauge and .410 bore guns can be reproduced using either the 000 or the 00 frame for either gauge. The factory produced both gauges of gun on both sizes of frame, so Tony could do the same. With the proliferation of Parker Repro 20 gauges for $3000 to $4000, the market for the expensive Galazan version would be nonexistent.

[Greg Baehman]

Commissioned by Remington Arms to original Parker standards, in my opinion it is as real a new Parker as you can get today... only it is produced in a different, modern plant by, of course, different employees (nobody lives forever - even in earlier Parker days).
You could say the same thing about Parker Reproductions, except they were commissioned by Tom Skeuse, Sr. instead of Remington, eh?

[Bruce Day]

Is a CSMC-built Remington Parker AAHE considered a real Parker or is it a reproduction?


Here are my thoughts as a Parker shooter, collector and enthusiast.

I don't use the term "real Parker". There are various Parkers and all are interesting, desirable and have their own merits depending upon personal preference details, availability and costs.

These include Parker Bros ( Meriden), Remington Parker transition guns ( Meriden), Remington Parker ( Ilion), Parker Reproduction ( I use this term because that is what the maker called them) and the new Remington CSMC Parkers. I have or have had them all except the new Remington CSMC Parker and I would be very interested in that gun.....only if. I only exclude the 1980's Remington Parkers because there are just a handful of them.

Great guns, all of them.

[Bill Murphy]

As I recall from seeing the Goldenberg gun, it isn't an unadorned production model. How about that, Dean? Right or wrong?

[Brian Dudley]

I would say that it is considered a "real" Parker since it is being made under license by the company that owns the rights to the actual brand and design.
And I think they are even carrying on with the serialization as well. But I may be mistaken.

Of course, cost could be saved by going with The Hayes prototype design, but that never got fully off the ground in Meriden, so it could not be called full out Parker today.

[Dean Romig]

As I recall from seeing the Goldenburg gun, it isn't an unadorned production model. How about that, Dean? Right or wrong? .... Right! I was there too when Ken opened the case at Pintail.


You can say that again Bill. What a nice Parker that is.

[Chuck Bishop]

OK, for use folks that weren't there when Ken opened up the case, please describe the gun for us. I'm assuming it is one of the Remington Parkers made in the 1980's??? Gauge, grade, etc.

I've done a few letters for him, he lives in the next town over from where I grew up. I may need to pay him a visit next time I'm in the area.

[greg conomos]

It would be very hard to make a case for anyone to produce an 'affordable' Parker in today's world. The best example is circa 1994 when they were practically giving away the Repro's. Who wants to be the guy who steps up to be the next to give away Parkers?

But no, the last real Parker was shipped sometime in the 1940's. The rest are all fine guns, to be sure, but only a person who had never made anything with his own two hands could call them real Parkers. Because if we allow CSMC to produce a 'real' Parker, then there's no further distinction to letting Rong Fu Arms produce one in the middle of China. A Parker is more than the name or the 'rights' to who owns the name. There's the real deal, then there's the followers.

[Dean Romig]

We've been over the "Real Parker" issue several times before both on this forum and on the previous forum as well. Some have even made the distinction that the only "Real Parkers" were the ones made in Meriden by Parker Bros. and that the Parker shotguns produced by Remington in the Illion plant are nothing more than early reproductions. I wouldn't draw such a fine line as that and I am of the mind that the Parkers made by or commissioned by or authorized by the owner of the name are in fact "Real Parkers". But that's just me.... everybody has an opinion and everybody has a right to voice their opinion - but we've been here before and there were never any conclusions drawn then either.

[John Davis]

It's a "real" Parker if you are allowed to shoot it in the Parker vs. Smith challenge.

[Greg Baehman]

Is licensing the reason Parker Repros are not allowed to be shot in The Challenge Cup?

[greg conomos]

Well, the argument will go on forever. But I place little value in the ownership of a name.

If Lisa Marie Presley decides to hire some guy start recording Elvis records, that doesn't mean it's an Elvis record.

[Dean Romig]

Please excuse me from any further participation in the argument.

[John Davis]

An argument with no answer. Chicken or the egg?

[Dean Romig]

There is no answer.... there is only opinion.

[Matt Valinsky]

For us new guys around Parkers, who owns the name "Parker Brothers"?

[ForrestArmstrong]

Galazan makes fine shotguns no doubt but I personally see better value in a GG engraved A1 special repro at less than half the price of a Galazan AAHE repro. Or an original A1 for less money (Julia Auction, page 8, Parker Pages, V20, Issue 4).

[Dean Romig]

The trademark name Parker Gun is owned by Remington Arms I believe.

However, there is a small company manufacturing an O/U shotgun under the name Parker Brothers.

[Dave Suponski]

Dean, I have not heard a word about the over/under venture in a few years. I,m not sure they are doing anything at all. The name of the company was "Parker Brothers Makers"

[Dean Romig]

Thanks Dave - I hadn't heard anything lately either.

So apparently they didn't even own the name "Parker Brothers". Seems there was a problem with Remington about that, if I remember correctly...

[Bill Murphy]

The "Parkerbrothersmakers.com" website is still up. Take a look. Kevin McCormack and I and others inspected the new over under at one of the last Vintage Cup shoots at Millbrook, New York. Kevin shot the gun, I did not. There is probably some comment on this forum about the gun if you feel like juggling the search function. The Parker Brothers Makers over under will never be considered a real Parker. The gun is made in competition format. Kevin, I, and the makers had an extended chat over the gun. I offered to take the gun on the Mid Atlantic NSSA and NSCA circuit, but I never heard from them and never saw the gun being displayed at a competitive shoot. That Vintage Cup was the last time I saw the gun.

[Brian Dudley]

Well, I think The Charles Parker Co. Retained the rights to the "Parker Brothers" name back in 1934. That is why Remington used the name "Parker".
Who knows what exactly happened to the Parker Brothers name over time since the CPCo. Is gone now.
The O/U are technically "Parker Bros. Makers"
I can't figure out how anyone thought the O/U venture was a good (or catchy) idea...
There is a 2012 price list on their website. $99,000 for an A1S !! The Galazan Parker sounds good!

[Dave Suponski]

Bill, I think your right. I believe the last time I saw the Parker Brothers Makers gun was Sandanona. In fact I was right around the corner today from Sandanona at Safari Outfitters.

[Daryl Corona]

Bill, I think your right. I believe the last time I saw the Parker Brothers Makers gun was Sandanona. In fact I was right around the corner today from Sandanona at Safari Outfitters.

Picking up a late Christmas present for me, were ya'?:)

[Dave Suponski]

:whistle:

[Ken Hill]

Robin Hollow has this 28 ga http://www.robinhollow.com/gunpages/121313026.htm for sale. Is this one of the CSMC 28 ga guns?

Ken

[Russ Lindsay]

xxx

[Ken Hill]

Russ,

Thanks...I corrected my link.

Ken

[Bill Murphy]

Ken, that is a good question. Maybe someone will call up Uncle Bill and ask him. The serial number would indicate a continuation of Parker numbers. Nice gun.

[Dean Romig]

It appears to be one of the CSMC Parkers comissioned by Remington beginning in 2006, not one of the three (?) Revival Parkers by Remington in the eighties.

[Bill Murphy]

Yup, that's what Ken suggested. Thanks, Ken, for ferretting out that gun. A little pricey compared to what some of these have reputedly sold for. But what a piece of wood.

[Daryl Corona]

And.... a 16 1/4" LOP. Wonder if it was a special order for a big shooter?

[Rich Anderson]

I wonder if its an upgrade.

[Dean Romig]

It's not an upgrade Rich.

[Rich Anderson]

My mistake I was thinking of the one Robin Hollow has. To many high grade small bore out there to keep traack of:)

[Dean Romig]

The RHO AAHE 28 is the one I meant was not an upgrade.

[Rich Anderson]

IMHO then 40K for that gun isn't unreasonable. I'm glad I'm not in the market for a high grade small bore:rotf:

[Dean Romig]

For those interested in the Parker Reintroduction AHE by Remington at $20K in 1991, 2001 and 2005 and as a comparison, the Parker AAHE by CSMC at $49K begun in 2006 please refer to Parker Pages, Volume 12, Issue 4 on pages 6 and 38. ((The serial number of the CSMC AAHE shown is P242510)). There you'll find the whole of both stories and even mention of the "P" serial prefix for the 2006 and later CSMC AAHE's.

[WILLIAM STANELL]

I know of two of the 80 Remington Parker's one a A1S the other AAHE. Both in private collections. They are a continuum of Parker line.

[Bill Murphy]

80?

[WILLIAM STANELL]

Made for Remington execs in 80's

[Dean Romig]

Art has never shown us his.... :crying:

[WILLIAM STANELL]

We brought both guns to vintageers in Maryland a few years ago. There was a piece on it and Parker pages.

[Dean Romig]

Parker Pages Volume 12, Issue 4, pgs. 6 and 38.

I was there and saw those guns - very nice!

[Bill Murphy]

I saw at least one outside the PGCA tent at the Vintagers. I saw dozens of them at Ilion in 1998 and 1990. I have pictures of them, including a couple of pictures of me, holding them. I wonder if they're still there.

[Bill Murphy]

Ten years later, I'm still wondering whether they are still there. They were in the Archives with the records. They were in wooden boxes from Kolar Arms. This was when Don Mainland was still at Kolar.

[Dean Romig]

Actually, we have seen Art's on display in the Peterson Collection at the NRA Museum.

I have a picture of two of them in a glass display case but the pics aren't good enough to see any close-up detail.





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[Bill Murphy]

Art is lucky his isn't in the basement storage area at Oakton, never to be seen again.

[Dean Romig]

Art donated the guns, he didn’t loan them, so I think it is we who are the lucky ones that they’re on display to the public.





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[Scott Janowski]

Anyone know what happened to the museum guns that were at Ilion?

[Bill Murphy]

More important and numerous than the museum guns are the R&D collection guns.

[Dean Romig]

Bill, forgive my ignorance, what are the R&D Collection guns?





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[edgarspencer]

Research & Developement

[Dean Romig]

I kinda thought that Edgar but I wondered if Bill had something else in mind.





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[Bill Murphy]

Edgar gave the right answer. The R&D room at Ilion houses thousands of guns, from all makers. I could have spent days in there. It is dark in there so bring flashlights if you ever get an invitation. I suspect this collection and the museum collection are being looted and have been for some time.

[Alfred Houde]

The story that I got was that the museum and R&D collections were packed and in storage awaiting the completion of the new factory and will eventually end up there.

Let's hope so.

[Dean Romig]

Thanks Edgar and Bill. That’s enlightening. And thanks Alfred - we can only hope so.





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[Scott Janowski]

Thank you. It is a shame that the politicians chased Remington out of the state with their bullshit.
Took many trips down the Thruway past Herkimer late at night, always looked forward to seeing the factory lit up like a beacon of hope!
Now just a reminder of how the politicians are screwing us in New York.

[Bill Murphy]

The R&D and museum collections should mean little to the new owners, but mean a lot to us. It would be to their advantage to let the collecting world know when these assets go up for sale.

[Alfred Houde]

Hopefully the RSA is staying on them, even if the line of communication is not reciprocal. History does repeat itself though, and DuPont infamously felt that "history doesn't sell new products."

The new Remington would be wise to utilize and promote that history rather than dismiss it.