Figure choke from pellet count ?

[William Davis]

May be a simple answer to this one. Trying to figure out if the very worn VH I just bought has had the chokes altered. Not concerned with the pattern just has it been altered.

Right barrel constriction is about .002 left about .005, 26 inch 12 gage. Wall thickness mid point is just under .040, lot more than I would have expected. It has records and have ordered a letter. Letter from another VH I own says. "RH 230 LH 280 pellets of # 7 in a 30 inch circle @ 40 yards"

New charts don't show # 7 and I don't know for sure what the charge was. May be able to assume 1 1/8 and use 7 1/2 counts or perhaps not.

Assuming the letter I just ordered has the same sort of description what is the best way to correlate number of pellets to how the chokes measure 100 years later ?

Bill

[Rick Losey]

choke would be figured from the percentage-

but shot sizes pattern differently - so it would make sense for someone to require the pattern figured with their favorite size

this Chart has American size 7 in it
http://www.hallowellco.com/shot_size_chart.htm

percentages given by O'Connor
Full Choke: 70% or higher
Improved Modified: 65%
Modified: 55-60%
Skeet No. 2: 55-60%
Quarter Choke: 50%
Improved Cylinder: 45%
Skeet No. 1: 35-40%
Cylinder: 35-40%

[William Davis]

Thanks

Great chart have printed it out

Bill

[Bill Murphy]

Parker pattern counts are made with different sizes of shot, different brands of shot, different sizes of target, different shapes of target, targets shot at different ranges, different charge weights of shot, you name it. To determine what your original test target was, you have to read the stock book entry. The alternative is seeing the order book entry, which may say tight, open, close, full, 250 shot in target with the target either specified or not. It could say even, modified, 300 shot, nearly full, bore for #4 shot, bore for buckshot without mentioning the size, you name it.

[Chuck Bishop]

To make matters more difficult, back in the day, the same size shot from one manufacturer would be different than another manufacturer. The pellet count for the same weight would vary. You would have to know who the shot manufacturer was, the pellet count for each barrel, and the shot weight, the size of the pattern and the distance plus the gauge to figure out the percentage. Some of the Parker catalogs had a chart of shot sizes and manufacturers. I'll try and scan it and post in but may not be for a couple of days.

[Chuck Bishop]

When the stock books were copied, evidently the copier wasn't quite long enough to copy the entire page. If I'm lucky, I can see the pellet count at the end of the page. If I'm a little more lucky, I can see the pellet count plus the size of the shot, if I'm even more lucky, I can see what the distance and pattern was.

What I learned from looking at an original stock book at the Remington Museum was that there was another column to the right of the patterning information. That column gave the type of powder used, shot weight, and shell. Rarely you will see that info in the Order Book. The customer specified the type of shell to use.

[Bill Murphy]

Chuck will give you what is available to him. As he says, not all information is available in most instances because the copies of the stock books are not as long as the original stock book pages. Originality in individual guns is usually determined by comparing order book information with the bore and choke measurements gleaned from the micrometer.

[John Dallas]

Are the barrels uncut? There should be approximately 4" of choke constriction in each barrel. Most guns had more choke than yours.

[Chuck Bishop]

Here is the shot comparison table showing how many pellets were in each manufacturers shot per 1 ounce. Most 12ga's were tested using 1 1/8 oz of shot unless otherwise specified. I've seen Tatum shot used quite a bit in the records. Do the math to figure out how many pellets would be in 1 1/8 oz of shot and figure out the percentages based upon what the factory records show for the number of pellets in the pattern. The gun William is referring to used a 30" circle at 40 yards. Earlier guns were patterned using a 24" circle at 45 yards. The real early guns (underlifters) used a pattern of 18 x 24 at 45 yards. It's important to know the pattern size and distance.

[Ed Blake]

I have a DH that specified 1 1/4 oz Tatum #7 shot over 48 grains of Schultze (sp?)powder. No shot count noted, just "shoot close." The barrels both have 35 points of choke.

[Chuck Bishop]

Ed, that info had to have come from the Order Book. Was there Stock Book info in your letter? If there was then the patterning info was cut off when copied as I stated in a previous post. The weight, type of powder/grains, and shell used is that last column in the original Stock Books that couldn't be copied.

[Rick Losey]

Chuck - is there any reference to the load weight for the 10 gauge load in the Parker documentation? 1 1/4?

and was there a normal shot size if it isn't shown in the letters, #6 is referenced in the barrels chapter of the Parker Story, but not said to be a standard

[Chuck Bishop]

Rick, attached is a "Charge To Be Used" found in the 1888 catalog. It shows the recommended shot weight and drams for each gauge. Looking at the same time frame in the stock books, normally for a 10ga you see Parker using size 8 shot in a 24" circle at 45 yards. Parker seemed to switch back and forth using either size 7 or 8 shot through the years. That was their default size. Customers sometimes specified to use a certain size shot in the Order Book depending on what the gun was going to be used for.

Hope this helps.

[Rick Losey]

Thanks Chuck

now that I have the load on a letter, i will be interesting to see if I can duplicate the results. black powder fiber wads an all

great chart
interesting that the powder charge changes with the barrel length and weight of the gun - for 10 gauges 9 1/2 lb is the break point and its lists 30 and 32 inch appropriate loads.

i can understand the charge and recoil, not sure if 2 inches of tube after 30" will make much velocity difference. but great data

[Bill Murphy]

We discussed the different variations of patterns used by Parker Brothers some time back. It is a real tossup determining what combination of target size, range, load weight, shot size and brand were used. A 24" target at 45 yards doesn't catch nearly as many shot as a 30" target at 40 yards. As I have mentioned before, I have not seen an order book pattern entry for an eight gauge gun. Maybe our research committee would find an entry like that of enought interest to share it.

[Chuck Bishop]

As I have mentioned before, I have not seen an order book pattern entry for an eight gauge gun. Maybe our research committee would find an entry like that of enought interest to share it.

Bill, in the quote above, you mentioned "order book pattern entry". Do you mean the Order Book or Stock Book entry? Unless the buyer specified what pattern to use when the initial order was placed in the Order Book, it would be very rare. If on the other hand, you meant the Stock Book pattern information, I might be able to find some S/N's that show all the patterning information. Remember, much of the patterning info was not shown in it's entirety due to the width of the copier at Remington.

The Parker Story has a list of 8 gauge S/N's. To find each gun in the database, then pull the Order Book for all those guns is A LOT OF WORK

[Bill Murphy]

Chuck is right. I meant to say "stock book entry".

[Chuck Bishop]

I was able to find pattern info for 8ga guns in the stock books. These were 174xxx guns made about 1916. Patterns were 30" at 40 yards. I've seen shot sizes of 2,4, and 00.

One gun had 125 pellets of size 2, one gun had RH 90 pellets of 2's and LH 9 pellets of 00, and another had RH 90 and LH >90 pellets BB size. Anyway, it looks like Parker used large shot for the 8 gauges.

[charlie cleveland]

thats great info on the 8 ga patterns..i wonder how many 00 buck was in that 8 ga shell that put 9 of them pellets in that 30 inch circle at 40 yards... i will record this info for my own files...charlie

[Chuck Bishop]

Charlie, I'm not real familiar with those large shot sizes but the one chart said that the recommended shot charge for the 8ga was 2 ounces. The other table lists Tatum shot as having 50 BB sized pellets per ounce so 2 ounces would be 100 pellets. I don't know if 00 buck is smaller or larger than BB. Size 2 shot would have 172 pellets in 2 ounces.