Parker CHE

[Donnie Reels]

Hi there Parker gents. I have a question I now you guys have heard before. I am wanting to make an offer on a CHE grade gun. I think I now where the ball park is but not for sure.. The gent I asking $15500.00 for the gun. I think is to much!
1. The gun is all factory not been redone at all!!
2. 30" barrels
3. Straight stock.. 'I like that"
4. checkered butt plate..
If you guys can help me I understand. I just don't want to make an offer and be to low. Or give way to much... Thank you guys for you time. Donnie Reels

http://i808.photobucket.com/albums/zz9/ahfoxman/Super%20Trap%20-%20Iver%20Johnson/Parker%20CHE/CHE2.jpg
http://i808.photobucket.com/albums/zz9/ahfoxman/Super%20Trap%20-%20Iver%20Johnson/Parker%20CHE/CHE1.jpg
http://i808.photobucket.com/albums/zz9/ahfoxman/Super%20Trap%20-%20Iver%20Johnson/Parker%20CHE/CHE6.jpg
http://i808.photobucket.com/albums/zz9/ahfoxman/Super%20Trap%20-%20Iver%20Johnson/Parker%20CHE/CHE5.jpg
http://i808.photobucket.com/albums/zz9/ahfoxman/Super%20Trap%20-%20Iver%20Johnson/Parker%20CHE/CHE3.jpg
http://i808.photobucket.com/albums/zz9/ahfoxman/Super%20Trap%20-%20Iver%20Johnson/Parker%20CHE/CHE4.jpg
http://i808.photobucket.com/albums/zz9/ahfoxman/Super%20Trap%20-%20Iver%20Johnson/Parker%20CHE/CHE9.jpg
http://i808.photobucket.com/albums/zz9/ahfoxman/Super%20Trap%20-%20Iver%20Johnson/Parker%20CHE/CHE8.jpg
http://i808.photobucket.com/albums/zz9/ahfoxman/Super%20Trap%20-%20Iver%20Johnson/Parker%20CHE/CHE7.jpg

[Donnie Reels]

one other thing the gun is a twelve... sorry I did not sat that..

[Bruce Day]

A C grade small bore would be higher.

No photos are provided and I do not know what a "checkered butt plate" is as relates to Parkers. About 20% were made with straight grips, which are preferred by some and generally bring a premium.

However, $15,500 is not an irrational asking price for a CHE 12ga, depending upon the condition, barrels and engraving of the gun. However, if you believe it is not correctly priced, wait and look for another, or perhaps ask the seller, who is likely a PGCA member, why he values the gun as he does.

[Donnie Reels]

Thank You.. No a dealer has the gun. sorry about spelling trying to type and do other things at the same time..

[Bruce Day]

The PGCA membership includes many dealers who sell guns through shops, internet sales, and gun show tables. The PGCA membership also includes the major gun auction houses.

[Harryreed]

The serrated buttplate is usually referred to as a skeleton buttplate. What is the frame size and barrel type/composition? That info will help.

[Donnie Reels]

yes sorry skeleton bot plate.. The gun is a #2 frame

[Donnie Reels]

the gun has fluid steel barrels

[greg conomos]

It would need to be a fairly minty CHE to warrant $15.5K. It's not a rare gauge, barrel length, or frame size. What does the PGCA letter say about it?

[Donnie Reels]

I have not seen a letter on the gun. I will post some pictures this evening.. I thought 415.5K is a lot also. BUT the gun is in the gage I like and has a HIGH stock. thank you guy for your input so far...

[Eric Eis]

Now that we know the gauge, frame size, and barrel length, What is the condition of the gun, % of case colors, % of blueing, and % or original stock finish.

[Donnie Reels]

$15.5K sorry in a meting hard to type..

[Donnie Reels]

Condition of the gun I will say 90% case color 35 to 40 % original stock finish 85%... I will try to post some pic of the gun this evening when I get home.. thanks so much!!!

[Craig Larter]

15K seems more like a price for a BHE from my observations and your description of the CHE.

[Harryreed]

A C grade at 90% with fluid steel I would estimate at $10k plus.

[Rick Losey]

$15.5K sorry in a meting hard to type..


:rotf: :rotf: :rotf:

so i am not the only one that copes with BS that way

[Bruce Day]

Interesting comments, however, pp. 1394-5 of the 2013 Blue Book of Gun Values, states $15,000 for a 90% C grade 12ga, identifies it as a "scarce" gun, and applies a 25%-30% addition for ejectors, making a possible total of $19,500 for a 90% CHE 12ga.

The price and value data for the Blue Book Parker section is compiled by PGCA president Bill Mullins based upon sales and actual research.

I personally know of C grade 12's that sold for over $15,000 and B grade 12's that sold in the 20's. The Blue Book values are consistent with what I have seen. Values are provided for varying percentage of condition down to $6,500 to a 10% condition gun.

[Eric Eis]

Bruce is right, prices can be all over, without pictures we are shooting in the dark....

[Craig Larter]

Can a 90% condition gun have only 35-40% case color as Donnie states?

[Bruce Day]

Condition of the gun I will say 90% case color 35 to 40 % original stock finish 85%... I will try to post some pic of the gun this evening when I get home.. thanks so much!!!

See above for Mr. Reel's determination.

Original case color is the main determinant of condition, right or wrong. Stock finish is commonly touched up in many if not most high grade guns. Barrels are often re-blued for fluid steel or re-browned for Damascus without loss of collector value. Of course a ham handed barrel carding job or harsh sanding down to bare wood and a sloppy coat of varnish can seriously degrade value regardless of case colors.

Some of the most costly high grade Parkers have had fully refinished stocks. A few have had replacement stocks. Correctness to original is key.

Percent condition is subjective and it is difficult to tell a 90% gun from an 80%, etc.

[Donnie Reels]

I have added some pictures on my first post on page one... Thanks for all of you guys help..

[Harryreed]

Here is my concern. In your post, you indicate the gun is factory original. That is key to the upward value. I am not that good of a Parker collector to say whether it is or is not factory original finishing from the photos. I mention this because that is where all firearms get their upper value. They are original. You have come to the correct place. There are folks on this site with knowledge about Parkers we could only wish to know. I am sure they will help you out with this. Better photos of the Parker would help evaluate. If it is a local dealer I would take more photos and post. Barrel markings and water table photos. If the dealer will not allow you to take photos, beware!!! IMHO $15k is tops.

[Ray Masciarella]

Bruce hit the nail on the head. For reasons unknown to me, It seems case color is everything when it comes to Parkers, and to answer Craig's question, a Parker with 40% case color cannot be a 90% gun, at least according to those who rate Parkers. The originality of other components plays a factor but more to the downside rather than the upside. I could never figure out why a Parker with stocks/barrel 90% but only 40% case colors is a 40% gun?!? Anyway, that's life.

[Bill Murphy]

Although it has been mentioned that our feerless leader, Bill Mullins, wrote the Blue Book entries, readers must read all of those entries. There are many caveats and exceptions that have to be taken into account. The supplied pictures of the gun in question are like looking at collector postage stamps through a soda straw. Better pictures with enlargement capability would help us a lot to appraise the gun.

[Donnie Reels]

I will try to put better pic on Monday guys.. I just like to make sure I don't overpay for the gun... Thank all of you for your time..

[edgarspencer]

The scalloping off the frame suggests it's an early gun, so I wonder why the trigger guard looks so black and shiny. The colors on the trigger plate seem a bit bright. Pretty hard to tell from the size of the images.

[Harryreed]

Would an early C have fluid steel barrels?

[Bruce Day]

Lots and lots of speculation and conjecture. Nothing surpasses studying and knowing The Parker Story, studying many Parkers, looking over guns carefully in person and in natural light, and in knowing what to look for, particularly for costly guns.

Most Parker collectors that I know start carefully with lesser grade and lesser cost guns and gradually move up. If a person doesn't have the knowledge himself, then I recommend having a good mentor who does.

In response to the questions above, yes early C's could be ordered with Titanic barrels, but study TPS and look at Parker catalogs. Some late guns had deep frame sculpting and I have posted photos here before of such guns side by side with early ones. Photos are notorious for providing inaccurate case colors. Flash, color saturation, lighting, etc. can lead to inaccuracies. Nothing beats examining the gun yourself in diffused natural light and waiting to draw conclusions.

The last annual meeting we had in Louisville had a theme of C grades and some fantastic guns were on display. I am mainly a C collector and was asked to and did give a presentation on C's which might have been interesting for participants here.

[Donnie Reels]

Thanks for the info guys. Yes I do have some Parkers that cost less. I have always wanted and looked for a C grade with steel barrels and straight grip. I found this one so that is why I am here asking for info on C grades. Yes if I had the gun in hand well then it would be easy! but I live in Kentucky and the gun is in Texas. Thought you guys could look at it and now more than ever will. Yes the # match on the gun. The gent said the checkering was most likely recut some time back.

[Chris Travinski]

It may be worth mention that this gun is made without a safety too. I looked at this gun when it went up for sale a few weeks back, if I had the $15k it would be in my safe already. It looks right to me, excellent condition, straight stock with skeleton butt plate, safety delete, all it needs to be perfect is another 2" of barrel.

[George Lander]

Donnie: "ACME" would be the correct barrel steel for a CH or Grade 4. Does the one that you are looking at have ejectors?

Best Regards, George

[Donnie Reels]

Yes it does have ejectors. The gun also has Titanic barrels. The gun also has "NO Safety'

[Larry Frey]

Donnie: "ACME" would be the correct barrel steel for a CH or Grade 4. Does the one that you are looking at have ejectors?

Best Regards, George

George,
Some early C's did came with Titanic barrels. I know this because my very first Parker, which was given to me by a family member was a 1900 CH 12 gage on a #2 frame with 30" Titanic Steel barrels.

[Bruce Day]

Donnie: "ACME" would be the correct barrel steel for a CH or Grade 4. Does the one that you are looking at have ejectors?

Best Regards, George



TPS chapter on C grades explains that Titanic steel was the fluid steel in C's before approximately 1905. After that, Acme.

The original poster identified the gun as a CH (E), the "E" meaning ejectors.

I own a 1905 CHE 12/30 substantially identical to the gun the original poster is describing, except it has Bernard steel barrels and a Silvers pad. These guns were used for trap and live bird shooting during the period. I believe my gun has a value in the range being discussed. I believe the market places a higher value on a skeleton butt plate and a higher value on Bernard barrels.

It appears Donnie might be a serious buyer, and don't delay too long if you like the gun. Good ones have a way of quickly disappearing .

[edgarspencer]

George,
Some early C's did came with Titanic barrels. I know this because my very first Parker, which was given to me by a family member was a 1900 CH 12 gage on a #2 frame with 30" Titanic Steel barrels.

In fact Larry, there were far more 30" Titanic 12 ga. Cs than there were Acme

[Bill Murphy]

What is missing here is the PGCA letter on the gun. Provenance is important in many graded Parkers. The seller of a $15,000 gun should be willing to spring for a $40 letter.

[Donnie Reels]

I ave only talked wit the gent threw Email so far. That is why I came to the Parker form. I want to now as much about C grade guns as I can before I call on Monday. Yes I want to see a letter on the gun. I didn't want to pay his asking price so I was trying to get a nice starting point. You guys sure have been a lot of help. I want to think everyone that has responded. If I buy the gun yes I will become a member and yes I will post a lot better pic of the gun. If anyone else has any input please let me now.. thanks Donnie

[Donnie Reels]

Thank you for the picture of the C grade..

[David Dwyer]

I also have an almost identical CHE 12 except it has 85% original case color.
It is not for sale but if it was it would be US$ 15,000 +
David