paper hulls

[paul stafford jr]

hi guys I purchased some new , primed paper hulls from ballistic products last week , I cant say how much I like them ,12 ga. 2 3/4 in . I got a thousand at .15 cents a piece there sold in bags of 100 , I trimmed some to 2 1/2 in and loaded them with 7/8 oz of #8 they shoot great so I ordered a thousand more so get them while the getting is good. if you check there web site from time to time you may be able to get 16 and 20 ga hulls too

[Rick Losey]

what loading info do you use, and what pressure results?


are they the same as federal papers, so far I have been lucky getting those used fairly cheap.

but when you figure in these are primed - and not used, that adds to the savings on materials

I cut and roll crimp them so I am not counting on many loads. I'd be interested to hear how many you can get out of these.

[paul stafford jr]

I haven't reloaded any yet. I am using AA feather lite #22 mec powder bushing and ballistics products wad part # 072src , inside dimensions are similar to the STS hulls I normally use

[Paul Harm]

How much powder ? Different powder charges can be thrown by different people using the same bushing, so telling us what bushing you're using isn't much help. Paper shells after a couple of reloads will get burn holes just above the brass and should be discarded. They are fun to shoot and look cool with a roll crimp. I like to use paper wads also.

[paul stafford jr]

how ya doing mr. harm ... my #22 mec powder bushing throws between 12 and 12.2 grains of AA LITE every time. I like paper wads also but do you know anyone who makes them. it takes me a lot of time to make them. in 2 3/4 in shells I load 15.0 grains with a 3/4 oz of #9 shot for skeet, using the AA lite. say are we going to have a SxS shoot this winter

[Paul Harm]

Paul, you can get paper wads from www.circlefly.com - just tell Craig what you're loading and he'll be glad to help. I get the 1/2" thick cushion wads - they're easy to split in case you need to make up a different thickness, like 3/4". That and a .125 over powder wad, and a .028 over shot card. Your wad is for a 1oz load, but I didn't see in BP's description if it was for a straight walled hull. Is that hull you bought straight walled ? When I use plastic wads I like to use a shorter wad in the 2 1/2" shell. I use Claybuster wads [ which are way cheaper than BP's wads ] and use the CB-3118-12AR , which is a 1 1/8oz wad and load 7/8oz of shot in it. Because of it's lower cushion area, it loads very nice. About the winter shoot. If I thought there would be enough interest I'd have one. Have to wait and see.

[Paul Harm]

Paul, we buy wholesale so our price is a bit cheaper. I see Precision reloading [ www.precisionreloading.com ] has Claybuster wads and they're $9.99 for 500 where as the BP's wads are $7.89 for 250. BP's items I feel are way over priced. Precision usually carries the same product for less.

[paul stafford jr]

hi paul....the wads I am using in the paper hulls I shorten to 2.5 in. part # 072src are a non taper design they are with in a couple of thou. of inch from top to bottom. in 2 3/4 in. hulls I use clay buster wad part #cb1100-12 , I normally load 7/8 oz in this wad but when I use STS plastic hulls I load 1oz of shot in the same wad. I don't shoot the 1oz much any more . I practice mostly with clay buster #cb0175-12 with 15 grans of AA LITE in modern guns I shoot in skeet tourneys . I am starting to load black powder , what do think would be a nice starting point with these paper hulls?

[Paul Harm]

You may already know, but use only paper wads when loading BP because the plastic wads will melt in your barrel leaving a mess. A nice light load is 1oz of shot with 70grs of 3F. Back when I liked to feel the " push " of a BP load [ and liked to scare my friends who had no idea that I was shooting BP ] I'd load 94grs of 2F and 1 1/8oz of shot. Because of the cost of BP, I quit doing it. There's 7000grs in a pound, and at 70grs per shot you get 100 loads per pound. Because 3F burns faster than 2F, you can use less and get the same results.

[Paul Harm]

If you need BP, Grafs has it the cheapest, I think. They're at www.grafs.com - their reenactor powder only 11.95 - the 2 or 3F is 15.95 a pound. Last time I bought it , I got 20lbs to help with the haz mat fee of $27. That spread it out to a little over a buck a pound. Don't know what the " reenactor " powder is, first time I saw it. Maybe give them a call and find out.

[Rick Losey]

my guess from the limited information is the the reenactor powder is not what you would want to use, it says it is meant for reenacting and recreational shooters - low pressure

as a reenactor - all you care about is that it makes noise and smoke. since there is no projectile, pressure and consistency don't matter.

all the load information i have seen for shotshell loads specifies 2F - the granularity ( the number of F's) relates to the size of the grain- the more F's the finer the powder.

changing F ratings with the same volume will affect the pressure the load generates

[Paul Harm]

You're right - I just called them and was told it's just for show. I know 2F is normally used for shotguns but most of the guys at my club shoot 3F in the Tradegun matches - that's a smoothbore flintlock with no rear sight - and usually a 20ga - I shoot a 12ga. With ball or shot, they seem to shoot just fine with 60 to 70grs of 3F. And over on " Doublegunshop.com " a couple of the guys recommend 70grs of 3F and 1oz of shot. It's what I've been shooting for years at clays - at pheasants it's 85grs of 2F and 1 1/8oz of shot. As you stated, the smaller the grains, the more pressure and that's why less powder is used [ 70 instead of 85 ]. 15grs less powder means it's cheaper to shoot. Back in the 70's when shooting at Frendship [ the national range for the NMLRA ] we could buy powder for $3/lb - now it's from 16 and up. The only reason I still shoot 2F is because I still have some. Now being retired, I try to save where ever I can.

[Paul Harm]

Paul, I load BP on my Mec Jr. I know many guys say not to because of static electricity, but I've been doing it for years with no problem and when I ask if anyone knows of someone who's had a problem no one can answer. Anyways, a 46 bushing throws about 70grs [ by volume - the way BP is measured ]. You can deprime, prime, add powder with the machine or by hand if you're worried about using the machine, add wads and shot with machine, and then crimp or take it off and roll crimp. If you're fold crimping use a 6 point start die - or if previously crimped use a smooth start die [ which Mec sells ]. I've also cut off a 46 bushing to get 84grs, or don't use any bushing to get 94grs. In my Layman BP Handbook they list for 2F with a 1oz load and paper wads anywhere from 75grs to 102grs which gets from 1079 to 1442FPS. For 1 1/8oz the same powder and wads gets from 1017 to 1353FPS. That 70grs of 3F would be about the same as 85grs of 2F for pressure and velocity. You can load BP with a lot less worry about how much is used. All those loads were below 6000LUP [ or about 7000PSI ]. I would think about 75grs of 3F will get about 1200 to 1250FPS - a nice clays load.

[Rick Losey]

yes Paul, like everything to do with shooting - saving powder is a help

I was a reenactor for years, and bought my powder supply ahead of time each year. I stopped reenacting right after resupplying - so all set - at 100 70 gain loads a pound, all good here since it's mostly BP just for fun. I'll stick with low pressure smokeless for most shootingt.

[Paul Harm]

Same here, just for fun. We shoot the Freeland shoot every year with smoke. At my club, we shoot till 9PM on Tuesdays. On still nights in the winter it's fun to shoot skeet. The other guys wine about the smoke - say they can't see. I tell them try shooting doubles - it's hard to see the second shot - kind of a poke and hope.

[wayne goerres]

I have bin to freinship several times. It has been about twenty years since the last time. Are they still doing it.

[paul stafford jr]

I loaded some 2.5 in shells with 62 grains of FF and 7/8 oz of #8 and shot a couple of rounds of skeet, that had me smiling the hole time scored 22 twice. so now you got me thinking I should try FFF. I will use the same 62 grain charge and it should pick up the performance. on the 3 4 5 position crossers I did have to lead them quit a bit the FFF may do the trick. thanks for pointers paul

[Paul Harm]

I used to have a trailer I kept down there in the first row by the gate. Ya, they still shoot twice a year for the main shoots. My first spot was next to the pistol range along side the trap range. We would shoot pistol all day and trap at night. Did that for about 20 years. Paul, with your light loads you will have to lead em more. For a bit I was shooting 95grs of FF and 1oz of shot. Boy it sure did boom, but the leads were the same as shooting nitro. Think that was a bit more than needed. One night while shooting under the lights with nitro, a friend was shooting twice whenever he missed. About station 6 he was running short of shells, so I gave him one of mine. Now he was shooting a Browning O/U with ported barrels. I kind of got behind him because when he touched off that shell with 95grs of smoke the flame came out the side of the barrels and he almost threw the gun up and away. I was called every name in the book as everyone else was laughing their a** off. He finally said, " damn it, I should have known better than to ask you for a shell, I thought I blew the gun up ". I still get one or two guys a year out in sporting clays.

[edgarspencer]

I cut and roll crimp them .
Rick, whose roll crimper are you using? I have a Ballistic Products 16 ga. roll crimper, but am not satisfied with the rolled edge. It only has one ball, but they sell another with 2.
I have an old one that has 4 balls. It's the old bench top type that you crank.
I have to see what the heck I did with it.

[Rick Losey]

Rick, whose roll crimper are you using? I have a Ballistic Products 16 ga. roll crimper, but am not satisfied with the rolled edge. It only has one ball, but they sell another with 2.
I have an old one that has 4 balls. It's the old bench top type that you crank.
I have to see what the heck I did with it.


I have the old bench mount ones for 10, 12 and 16, all in good shape. I like the way they work on the federal papers, and they do OK on the plastic, although a second load takes some heating and straightening of the hulls' mouth on the plastic ones.

I will post some pictures later of the results - we have family coming tomorrow - so I'm busy between getting some cooking prep done, and trying to get the dog hair out of the hidden corners

:rotf: :rotf: :rotf: :biglaugh:

[Paul Harm]

Precision Reloading sells one with two balls for the same price BPs sells their one ball. Sometimes they go on sale - think mine was $20 last time. One of the guys at the club gave me a Supersizer - needed a spring. It makes a fine vice to hold the shells when roll crimping.

[edgarspencer]

One of the guys at the club gave me a Supersizer - needed a spring. It makes a fine vice to hold the shells when roll crimping.

Just what I was thinking. I'd rather a collet type, than a vise type.

[Paul Harm]

That Precision Reloading roll crimper has 4 bumps in it, not 2. Was just messing around yesterday and noticed it. I must doing something wrong - I always get one bad spot in the roll crimp - it doesn't roll over good. What way should it rotate ? The bumps have a tappered lead in , then it drops off 90 degrees. Should the sharp edge hit the shell first, or the tappered lead in ?

[John Farrell]

Paul - I'm rather certain that the roll crimpers are designed to go clockwise. That bad spot may be from you starting the crimper from a dead stop with the crimper against the mouth of the case. You might also look at the condition of the mouth if it's paper hulls you are talking about, here. Perhaps a little heat on the mouth, like holding it against a hot iron and then touching it into a saucer with a melted candle that has hardened into a cookie. The hot hull mouth will absorb just a bit of wax and maybe solve the problem.

[Paul Harm]

I start with the crimper moving but you might be on to something with the wax. I have an old plug that gets hot and I rotate the shell around it with a candle applied to it. I had stopped doing that - have to try it again. Thanks.

[edgarspencer]

These are the crimps I'm getting now. I gave up on the drill press roll crimper, and went old school. The crimper is an old BGI, and is convertible from rounded crimps to square crimps. It takes no more than 5 turns on the crank. The rear two shells are 2 3/4 spent RSTs (Cheddite) trimmed down, and front two are new paper Chedites. I don't heat or treat the lip, and I don't have to use a vise or collet to hold them. It takes about 3-4 minutes to roll 25 shells. I couldn't be more pleased with the results.

[Rick Losey]

not surprising - the tools used when roll crimps were in every day use can still do the job

[charlie cleveland]

mighty nice crimps.. charrlie

[wayne goerres]

Edger those are really good looking crimps. I use a drill press and one of the crimping tools and I dont think I can roll crimp as many shells in that lenth of time. I did discover that technique is everything.

[Paul Harm]

Edgar, that's a shell every six seconds - man, that's moving. I'd screw something up at that rate. They are very nice looking shells.

[edgarspencer]

When you say it that way, Paul, it does seems fast. Then I checked your math; 25 shells in 4 minutes is a tad over 10 seconds each (6 shells per minute).
I only had a about a dozen wads left. UPS must be backed up with holiday packages, or BP is slower than normal.
Anyway, I loaded the 12, put the overshot cards on and took the tray over to the bench where I have the old roll crimper. Not rushing, my wife said I did the 12 in 2 minutes, 10 seconds. If I didn't stop to admire each one, I could step it up a bit.
My drill press crimper requires opening the vise, inserting a shell, closing the vice, and down with the quill. I can only bear down so much or it will spin the shell in the two half-round jaws of the vice. If I tighten them up, it distorts the previously re-sized base.
The antique roll crimper is hands-down faster. Insert shell, turn handle 4-5 revs while applying inward pressure and that's it. The shell pops out when it's done.

[Paul Harm]

Edgar, my mistake - use to think I could do math a bit better than that - sorry. I use a Sizemaster a friend gave me so I just have to put the shell in and pull down on the handle. But I'm impressed with your speed and how they look. I have 3 old roll crimpers - gonna have to get them out and give em a crank. I had trouble before trying to clamp one down. I finally clamped one to a board and then clamped the board in my vice. I'm kind of fu**** up right now with nerve problems in my legs, but I'll get down in the basement one of these days - let you know.

[John Farrell]

Paul, give your legs time to get back into walking condition and let us know how you progress from time to time.

One of the improvements I've made to my roll crimps is - actually there are two - I have rubber stamps with the shot size number to do the overshot cards. And, I found a supplier of 5/8" labels that I run through my computer and print off a sheet of labels with the shot size number on and then put them onto the OSC. It's one of those little extra steps we SxS lovers are known for. Doesn't get more birds, but we look better doing it.

Just today I stamped out some OSC from a Chinese takeout joint that I use for an overshot card. They work as well as the BPI OSC, just a little more handwork to drive the non roll crimping part of society nuts. I love hearing them exclaim how they don't have time to do those little extra jimmy jobs that we enjoy.

[John Farrell]

ABCDF

[Paul Harm]

I bought a stamp set from BPI for shot size. Then a double ink pad - black and red - from Wal Mart. If loading black powder I use the black pad, and nitro the red pad. Now I have the shot size and what powder I'm using at the same time. I don't load a lot of BP, but it sure makes it easier to know what's in the shell. I also think paper wads are great when the shell goes off. Nothing looks better than a roll crimp shell, and better yet when all that confetti blows in the air. Life don't get no better than shooting a SxS with proper shells.

[wayne goerres]

That's a pretty good idea Paul. I am going to have to order a set of punches.

[edgarspencer]

I went to one of the on-line rubber stamp sites, and for $8.95, had this one made.

[wayne goerres]

Its amazeing what can be found on the web.

[charlie cleveland]

you boys sahould be selling shells...bout the best loads and ideas and good lookin shells i ve ever seen...charlie

[edgarspencer]

I trimmed about 100 NPE Chedite paper hulls for 2 1/2". And had a pile of perfectly cut little doughnuts. So, in keeping with the season, I made a mobile out of them. Since taking this picture, it has grown exponentially. It hangs over the breakfast room table. Any more additions and we'll have to duck, or eat on the floor.

[Paul Harm]

Don't think my wife would put up with that in the kitchen.