Not enough drop?

[Jay Gardner]

Picked up an old English gun and have fallen in love. She's quite a Hussey. Unfortunately I think she's a little straight for me and I may have to bend her a bit. Question: If a gun does not have enough DAH what is the the effect on the POI? (I am thinking I'll be shooting high).

Thanks in advance,

JDG

Here she is:

http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n308/Doublegun_2006/7AA7C0EA-6CE5-4F25-AE93-33FFDDAAE2DF-5548-000005E359741785_zps9721f5a4.jpg (http://s115.photobucket.com/user/Doublegun_2006/media/7AA7C0EA-6CE5-4F25-AE93-33FFDDAAE2DF-5548-000005E359741785_zps9721f5a4.jpg.html)
http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n308/Doublegun_2006/D28869DE-08A0-4053-B4F2-008BFAD74592-8641-0000067D19BD1214_zps6dbaea0e.jpg (http://s115.photobucket.com/user/Doublegun_2006/media/D28869DE-08A0-4053-B4F2-008BFAD74592-8641-0000067D19BD1214_zps6dbaea0e.jpg.html)
http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n308/Doublegun_2006/77C580C7-F472-4002-81AB-EA483171BEA4-8641-0000067D02CC999D_zpsd67a9331.jpg (http://s115.photobucket.com/user/Doublegun_2006/media/77C580C7-F472-4002-81AB-EA483171BEA4-8641-0000067D02CC999D_zpsd67a9331.jpg.html)

[Mike Shepherd]

In my experience the difference will be in mounting the gun while game hunting. If I shoot a high stock gun premounted I just push my cheekbone down on the comb. Push harder if I see too much rib, softer if i don't see enough.

If I am going hunting it is hard for me to mount a high stocked gun correctly. Generally my eye is too high over the rib as I have placed the comb against my jaw.

Probably clear as mud.

Best,

Mike

[David Holes]

I would pattern the old Hussie first, before I made any decisions with the stock.

[Jeff Christie]

And shoot it at some skeet or clays as well. Most skeet shooters like guns that shoot high as they tend to float their birds over the barrels. Patterns are most important as you will see point of impact vs point of aim (point). The gun appears to be a beauty.

[Jay Gardner]

That's the plan: pattern before I do anything but the gun feels high as I see too much rib. Given the value of the gun and the age of the wood I want to make sure it is done right the first time. Thinking I may get fitted (using the LOP and pitch of the gun) and then use a try gun) to find the correct DAH. That being said I am open to suggestion. One thing for sure: I will not cut that stock no matter what.

Now, back to the original question; stock too high, poi too high?

[ed good]

keep the original stock original and have a new one made to fit you?

[Brian Dudley]

Yes, a stock with higher drop will cause you to shoot high. If in fact the ammount of drop is more than you would normally shoot in order to see down the rib level.

If you can see the surface of the rib, then you need to have your target above the bead.

High stocks are more common with trap shooters that are going after rising targets and they like to aim at the bird instead of lead it. So, when the gun shoots high, it will hit the bird.

Obviously you can bear down more on a high stock to try and sight down the rib level, but that will just make for a sore cheek if you are doing a lot of shooting.

What are the dimensions of that gun you have? And how far off from what you normally shoot is it?

[Bill Murphy]

Yes, stock high, POI high. I have a couple of real high stocked English guns that can't be "fooled with" and I have reached a solution. I am going to try to fabricate or have fabricated a Boss rib or stub rib at each end, breech and muzzle, hopefully with magnets imbedded so the ribs are not permanently attached. That effectively raises the sight plane by whatever height the stub ribs are. However, the good news is that I have shot these guns for about three years and have hit most of what I have shot at. Unfortunately, they are meant to be competition guns and they should be perfect. I have not yet fabricated my stub ribs, but I am "close".

[Rick Losey]

Patterning will tell you the shot spread.

what you need is a Point of Impact test.

the one I use came out of a George Bird Evans book, (i don't remember where he said he got it)


set up paper at 16 yard from your eye, not the muzzle

put a small spot in the center of the paper at eye level

mount and fire as on a straight away bird, do several do make sure you are consistent

every inch the center of the shot is off from the spot is a 16th of an inch off in the fit

so 4 inches high is 4/16 too little drop at comb

4" low = 4/16 too much drop

4" left needs 4/16 cast off

the biggest problem is - if the gun fits - you need to come up with a new excuse when you miss

[Matt Valinsky]

Thats good stuff, need to give that a try. I need a lot of drop at comb. Thanks

[John Dallas]

Jay - Bring her out to the PUTINTAKINSHOOTINFEST (don't ask) this weekend. You'll get lots of advice

BTW- I have seen this gun. Pictures don't do it justice.

[Bill Murphy]

Wait a minute, Jay. The case label implies they are experienced stock fitters. It should fit. If it doesn't fit, send it back to them.

[Jay Gardner]

Bill,

That might be a little difficult as HJ stopped making guns around 1912.

John,

I will be bringing this Hussey and another Saturday.

Cheers.

[Fred Preston]

Might try changing the pitch with a wedge spacer.

[Jay Gardner]

Yes, a stock with higher drop will cause you to shoot high. If in fact the ammount of drop is more than you would normally shoot in order to see down the rib level.

If you can see the surface of the rib, then you need to have your target above the bead.

High stocks are more common with trap shooters that are going after rising targets and they like to aim at the bird instead of lead it. So, when the gun shoots high, it will hit the bird.

Obviously you can bear down more on a high stock to try and sight down the rib level, but that will just make for a sore cheek if you are doing a lot of shooting.

What are the dimensions of that gun you have? And how far off from what you normally shoot is it?

This begs the age old question: how much rib should the guy behind the trigger see?

I originally thought that I should only see the bead, no rib. Just the whole bead. Then I was told that I should see about 1/4 of the rib. (Still not sure what that means - seems like I will see all or nothing)

[Rick Losey]

Think of the guns with two beads

If everything lines up right they should form a figure 8

That should give you an idea of how much rib to see

[Bill Murphy]

Boss stubs.

[Jeff Christie]

The figure 8 advice is about as good as it gets on a 2 bead gun. Plus a pattern board.

[Mike Shepherd]

Charles Askins (the senior) wrote that if you lay the last joint of the ring finger over the breech end of the rib you should be able to see the bead just able above it. Of course he was primarily a game shooter.

[Jay Gardner]

Charles Askins (the senior) wrote that if you lay the last joint of the ring finger over the breech end of the rib you should be able to see the bead just able it. Of course he was primarily a game shooter.

I am trying to get my head around this and am having a hard time.

[Eric Eis]

I am trying to get my head around this and am having a hard time.

Jay, it's very simple: From a low gun position can you throw up the gun and hit the target..... if you can I don't care how much rib you can or cannot see, if the gun fits and you can break targets that's is all that counts...

[Mike Shepherd]

Put another way, if you made a cube about 3/8" per side and set it on top of the breech end of the rib and mounted the gun you should see the bead just above the cube. The last joint of your ring finger would be that joint with the fingernail. In my case I estimate the third joint to be about 3/8" thickness when I place it over the rib.

In my first post I typed "see the bead just able it." I corrected it to "see the bead just above it."

[James L. Martin]

I find that most people can shoot a gun that's a little too high, but not a gun that's too low. First shoot at a plate at least 4 or 5 times and see how high you are hitting , if your close to the aiming point then shoot a going away trap target , but get close to the trap house ,if your hitting that clay try shooting it low gun, if your still hitting it leave the gun alone and go hunting. I like to get a good number of shots and time spent with the gun before I mess with the chokes or change the stock in any way. I have stopped opening up any chokes or installing choke tubes.

[Bill Murphy]

Double barrel guns have different chokes in different barrels? How about that.

[Jay Gardner]

Jay, it's very simple: From a low gun position can you throw up the gun and hit the target..... if you can I don't care how much rib you can or cannot see, if the gun fits and you can break targets that's is all that counts...

That's what I am trying to achieve. All my shooting, even on clay birds, is from low gun. Ultimately the question is how to adjust the gun if I am missing. This is why I struggle with the concept of "aiming" at a patterning board or the concept of how much rib to see.

My thought is to focus on a point, mount the gun and fire at a patterning board as soon as the gun hits my shoulder in order to determine where I am shooting and repeat several times. Then repeat the exercise with another double that I shoot fairly well and compare. That should get me pretty close in terms of measurements.

[Rick Losey]

My thought is to focus on a point, mount the gun and fire at a patterning board as soon as the gun hits my shoulder in order to determine where I am shooting.

Which is exactly what you should do with the 16 yard POI test

[Bill Murphy]

I have a picture a shooter sent me of a Boss sub rib on his Beretta which does the same thing that I described in an earlier post. Good luck on ever seeing that picture, but is is a good description of how to solve this problem. Try googling "boss rib" or "boss stub rib" to see what it looks like. The question is do you want to solve your problem or do you want to talk about it? I have a Boss rib on my gun that solved my problem.

[Bill Murphy]

gunsinternational has some Boss over unders that show the Boss rib. I just looked at one that is a good example, almost identical to the wonderful Galazan gun that I just unwrapped. Such a rib could easily be adapted to any requirement for drop at comb and heel.

[Chaz Doebler]

The guy that did my fitting at Woodcock Hill told me to place two quarters stacked on the breech end of the rib and I should just see the bead over top. CHAZ

[Pete Lester]

I don't believe drop at heel is the critical dimension. I find that drop at face (where one's face comes in contact with the stock) is the critical measurement. That will be along the line between drop at comb and drop at heel and this is affected by the length of pull measurement.

For me there is a simple test, close my eyes, mount the gun in a normal fashion and then see where I am looking when open my eyes. If I am looking straight down the rib and only see the bead it is about perfect for a game gun. If I see some rib before the bead the gun will have a high POI for me. A little is OK for trap. If all I see is the lever then the gun has too much drop for me and will be hard to shoot.

I have found with my hunting clothes on that a straight grip VH I have been using with 1 5/8 x 2 3/4 x 13 7/8 is near a magic wand as a gun gets for me.