Shooter Trojan

[Russ Lindsay]

I have identified a Trojan S/N 213xxx I know very little about it except that it is a 20ga, 28"?? barrels and the forend is not original. While I understand the collectability of this gun is diminished, what is the consensus of 1) shooting it the way it is if the price is right (I understand everyone will want photos to make a determination but that is not possible). 2) finding a forend that will match? not s/n match but will look appropriate for period and usage.

While I understand that these are questions that are going to produce subjective responses I would like to understand the implications of what I am suggesting. Good idea or bad.

I am new to this forum so give it to me straight. I also realize my question drives toward shootabilty rather than collectability. If this is an inappropriate question or not within the guidelines, moderators please delete and I will look elsewhere for guidance.

Thanks in advance for your thoughts.

[todd allen]

As long as it's safe, shoot it the way it is.

[charlie cleveland]

if gun ius sound and deemed safe to shoot it would be a good shooter..it value would be small even if it had correct forearm...the trogan is a fine made gun but it was made to shoot from day one...would not be worth putting a lot of money in it... charlie

[Brian Dudley]

Thanks for asking your question.

In what way is the forend not original? Just the wood, or is the whole iron non matching for some reason? If it is just the wood (ie: an aftermarket beavertail forend or something), that could be corrected by either finding a good used one or having a new one made. Either way, if the replacement part or wook is quality, it would be very difficult for a average observer to tell that it was not original.

And, if all else on the gun is nice, then it would not be all that bad. Trojan 20s make great guns and do have a good amount of value if they are in good condition. Even in rough condition, they still have value.

A lot of these had 2.5" 20g. chambers, so the proper length shell would be recomended for shooting.

If you ge the gun, keep in touch with us on it.

[Russ Lindsay]

Todd and Charlie, thanks for your quick responses. I have not seen this gun yet but intend to on Friday. As to its' shootability, I believe it to be a very serviceable firearm. Again, that is said sight unseen. The seller is a gun dealer and does significant and reputable gunsmithing in our area and from my conversation with him I believe this gun is ready to take to the field. We are ready to at least take a look.

[Russ Lindsay]

Brian, thanks for affirming my initial thoughts. I am unsure what part of the forend is not original. My assumption is that the metal components are original and the wood is not. That is on my list of things to discuss tomorrow. He and I talked of finding a replacement forend that was of similar look and use. In your experience is this going to be a difficult find or relatively easy?

On your final point, please educate me on 2.5" chambers. I thought all 20ga shells that were labeled as 2 3/4" were ~2 1/4" unshot and about ~2 5/8" shot. How does this relate into 2.5" chambers? I am always interested to learn something new.

And while I am asking naive questions, how does one figure out what the chamber size is? Is a chamber the only way?

Again, best regards.

[Brian Dudley]

Chamber Length is measured from the breech face to the start of the forcing cone. And this should coincide with the length of the FIRED shell or the shell can be sorter. Or a hair longer is ok without adverse effects. If a 20g shell is 2-3/4" then it should be that long when fired. Loaded length does not mean anything.
If your chambers are 2.5" like many Parkers are, that would be a 1/4" difference between the chambers and the shell. For some, this is too much for comfort, others do not mind. I only mentioned it because you should heck it out any know what it is and also know that there are sell manufacturers that make 2.5" shells. Like RST.

Regarding the forend. Having one made for it would certainly be easier than finding a good replacement, but it would be more expensive. But with patience, finding a use don't can be done. If it has a beaver tail on it. That can also be modified to be a correct splinter. MAYBE.

[Russ Lindsay]

I have some additional information and of course additional questions.

I still am unclear on whether the chambers are 2.5" or 2.75"

The gun has 26" bbls and is choked IC/MOD is this likely, as I see some documentation indicating MOD/FULL was the choking for Trojans. I understand never say never and always.

LOP to front trigger is 13 15/16" which sounds like a standard butt stock

The forend hardware s/n matched to the gun the "block of wood" is just that. So another one will need to be made or found.

I am seeing these guns going for about $2K. Is that a fair ball park value, given no specific condition with which to compare? Said another way, if a gun has been shot and used with reasonable care and attention is a Parker Trojan made in 1925 going to be worth about $2,000 assuming it is shootable? Again, a gun will be worth what someone will pay for it. That is not what I am trying to convey. My question is, is the market of 1920's trojans that have been hunted in the field causing reasonable blemishes worth about $2,000 in today's market?

Any thoughts are appreciated.

[charlie cleveland]

i was asked 2000 for a trogan that was well used but taken care of..in my opinion a trogan 20 ga in average shooting shape will bring 2000.. charlie

[Russ Lindsay]

Thanks Charlie, that is what I am asking. I just read what I wrote and it sounds like gibberish.

Charlie, what I meant was, you answered the question I was asking and I appreciate your opinion.

[Bill Davis]

It would be hard to find a 20 ga. Trojan in good condition with good barrels for less then $2000. The barrels are the key component in my mind. Don't worry about chamber length, it's really a non-issue unless poorly altered by someone! If the forend on the gun you are contemplating is a big ugly beavertail, it can be altered and made to look good for perhaps $200 or so. Keep that in mind if you buy and make your offer accordingly. If the rest of the gun is nice with good screws, I hope you can get it.

[Russ Lindsay]

Bill, while I have not viewed this gun yet, I understand from everyone I spoken with that the forend is a "piece of wood". As I have not seen any photos, I am unable to determine what that means. I take it to mean that it is an unfinished piece of wood inletted to attach the hardware. You are the second one to suggest that a forend can be made for ~$200 so I am guessing there must be some history with having this done.

Your guidance on the barrels being key is taken to heart. I am intending to have a gunsmith have a look before I make a decision.

Let me share one more piece of information. I am obviously new to this forum. I am also new to Parkers. I am also brand new to SxS guns in general. In fact, until quite recently I had never shot a SxS, only seen/saw? a few and had little to no desire to shoot and certainly not to own one. A good friend forced me into a hunt this early fall that introduced me to Parkers and worse yet a group of guys who draw you in with the techniques and the morals of the best street pushers. First they let you look at their guns (many quite wonderful) then they offer to let you shoot one, then maybe just carry one for a morning...... The next thing you know, well you get the picture. What kind of friends are these, after all?

So back to my tale. With little knowledge of SxS guns and no knowledge of Parkers I am drug (there is that word again) to the table having a desire to own a Parker and to take my own into the field. My experience with the blood sports goes back a ways and has some breadth but a huge gap in SxS makes it necessary for me to take on a serious research project before buying anything. In fact I can hardly figure out what to look for so research is of the paramount.

Again, one of these ne'er do wells mentioned earlier, was kind enough to loan me a few back issues of Parker Pages, several copies of The Double Gun Journal and graciously a well read set of the The Parker Story. As you see this is all part of an elaborate plan to draw me in further and further to the nefarious mob of no goodnicks who own such infernal machines and use them for their enjoyment and camaraderie. Well, I am on to your game sir, no sir, not me. It takes more than a pretty piece of wood and a well turned set of barrels to draw me away from my other addictions.

So before I make any acquisitions I need information. I am here contemplating the purchase of a gun. I have been encouraged not to acquire this piece and am giving significant weight to this admonition. But I must make my own decision. It further needs to be with some knowledge and understanding as to why to adhere to his suggestion or ignore it that I come to you fine ladies and gentlemen for additional points of experience to assist me. To those who have taken the time to offer their suggestions, I appreciate and consider each of them. I know little of the respondents but it appears one may be a gunsmith and several who are moderate to experienced collectors and maybe one or more are casual collectors and shooters.

To each of you, I say thanks for reading and participating in my education. Shotguns are complex and tricky things that get a lot of my attention. This is an enjoyable journey and one I trust you have made yourselves and/or are making now. If not maybe you can see a little bit of this shooter behind the curtain as you help me on my quest to shoot my own Parker Brothers shotgun.

Thanks, enjoy.

[Dean Romig]

Russ, there is no good reason to bypass that Trojan unless the barrels are damaged or the expense to refurbish it is prohibitive. Please show us some pictures when you are able to.

[Russ Lindsay]

Dean, short of this firearm being a total wreck, I am leaning your way. I am almost always driven into a hobby via a project like this. This gun has that feel to it. I should be in a position next week to make a decision.

I am also getting some late breaking recommendations from one of those afore mentioned ne'er do wells, that his earlier recommendation may have been premature, and had I been more forthcoming he might have suggested differently.


All of that said, we like to think the world is perfect and we can know everything there is to know before making a decision. Well, life quickly teaches us that knowing everything is just not possible. And I submit not nearly as much fun. As long as the funds are "discretionary", and in the world of shotguns they are almost universally so, then find out what you can, make a decision and chalk bad decisions up to the price of education.

Regards, Russ

[todd allen]

Going into SxS shotguns, and Parkers in particular, is a progression. It's a journey, of sorts.
It starts out with the recognition that a SxS is a lot more pleasant to carry in the field, and then you get a taste of quality, tradition, and history. This path can lead in many directions, all good.
The Trojan is an entry level quality double gun. It will lead you to the path of the Parker Gun, and Story. Enjoy.

[Phil Yearout]

Russ, check your PM's. I believe I have seen this gun.

[Russ Lindsay]

Well, in the "ain't it a small world department".... Phil sends the post above and further sends me a PM asking if the gun is located at such and such a gun shop as he heard the retired owner discussing the details with someone on the phone.

How is that even possible.

Yes, Phil is right, it was me on the phone and that is the Trojan I have been posting about. Now here is the kicker. He has offered to go back to the shop and take some photos to send along to me!

Now I am a Scotmsman and an Irishman and I am speechless!

I actually made the 6 hour trip down to this gun shop to view the gun and make a determination. My intent upon leaving my driveway was to buy the gun. It was all that it was described, with one specific difference. I located a dent in the right barrel at about the mid-point! As I have come to find out this is not either a big deal or something to be concerned with. It was however, for someone who has always purchased new or as new firearms. It was a deal breaker at the time. I have since done a lot of research and am confident this can be repaired with minimal risk.

So barring something between now and mid-week next week I will move from the ranks of Parker admirer to officially being a Parker collector. Though the collection be humble. But, as Bill Mullins our esteemed President wrote in the Parker Pagess volume 20, Autumn 2013, pps 10, a collection is "one or more".

Well then color me a collector.

I will post some photos as soon as Phil or I have some. I will also use this thread to chronicle the guns transition from its' current state to "Shooter Trojan". So stay tuned if you've a mind to. You can at least watch as one morphs from new PGCA member to ne'er do well, right before your very eyes!

We are far from done here, so I will from time to time need further assistance. Until then put your feet up, relax and have cool drink (as we say in the mid-west) ;<), and again, thanks for help.

[Russ Lindsay]

A fellow PGCA member, Phil Yearout, took some photos of the Trojan 20 gauge, for me this weekend. He and others have identified some things that need fixing. As I am finding with this gun and any that are not demanding top $ prices, there are things that drive the seller to a lower price point. In several cases they are obvious, and some of these are more subtle to this novice.

First, let's look at the obvious; the forend, which has hardware that is s/n matched but my untrained eye suggests this is not original wood.

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-VLwq2r87nTI/UmxMmHPxc_I/AAAAAAAAHpg/qfM2X5V5vw0/s640/011.JPG

Second let's look at the possible crack in the stock near the trigger guard/action.

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-wav8jAlMiy0/UmxM7itDJtI/AAAAAAAAHqA/kqxcMCdusec/s640/016.JPG

Then we must look at the dent/ding in the right barrel.

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-rG-48CjWlDk/UmxnYAp3MCI/AAAAAAAAHsw/TuSG953SYEo/s640/019.JPG

Next, the screws are out of index and buggered up.

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-wav8jAlMiy0/UmxM7itDJtI/AAAAAAAAHqA/kqxcMCdusec/s640/016.JPG

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-ZMGCZN_SIlI/UmxNCxbwdqI/AAAAAAAAHqY/-I3N-r6isac/s640/012.JPG

We also see the top lever a little off of center.

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-r2NU89vImno/UmxM-U9MclI/AAAAAAAAHqI/AF65V-mRYxo/s640/014.JPG

We probably also have some oil saturation of the wood surrounding the action.

The extractors are so gummed up we spent 15 minutes getting them working well enough to put the gun back together so I would expect the same from the rest of the "innards".

For now let me say that I believe all of these things are repairable and most can be done by mere mortals with basic knowledge and skills of a gunsmith. I am not that person but am on a journey to add those skills to my repertoire. What I can't beg someone to help me do, or can do myself, I will farm out to professionals who do know how to do these things.

My intent is to show that someone with minimal skills, even less $, can with the help of some good friends (the afore mentioned ne'er do wells), take a gun that is really in need of some TLC and turn it back into the wonderful tool it was initially manufactured to be.

I told "the guys", over an adult beverage, while on a hunt this fall, that they had me hooked on Parkers. That I was now looking for a gun. That I preferred a small bore in 16 or 20 gauge. And that I wanted it for cheap.

I realize that last statement is relative. But hey, I could run to my local box store and get a synthetic stock parkerized barrel gun and be hunting by dark! Don't forget the camo face-paint. Now what would be the fun in that?

Come on a long it will be even less expensive for y'all, 'cuz by-standing is free.

[Brian Dudley]

It is good to see photos of this gun. What a forend on it! That would be an easy thing to correct, be it a replacement or a new one. Other matters like the dented barrel and screws are easily corrected by someone who knows what they are doing. A good disassembly and cleaning would be in order too.

With these things done, you would have a great shooter.

Just a note about the top lever position. It does not really matter much as to where it is, the thing to look at is the filed dish on the top of the action. If the dish on the lever lines up with the top of the frame, then it is not worn. And if the action is tight, then there is no worries.

[Russ Lindsay]

Brian, your comments are much appreciated. Each comment gives me a bit more information to work with.

I will check out the filed dish when I finally get this thing in my hands in a week or so.

And, yeah, that forend is a dandy!

[Brian Dudley]

Basically every since every Parker was hand fitted. Every top lever position and the filing on the top of it is unique. Some levers are centered, some to the right and some to the left some. But they were all like that from the factory.

The amount that a Parker top lever can move due to wear is very little.

[Jerry Harlow]

From the picture of the forend, it looks to me as if someone has put a piece of wood over the original forend. Could it be that it could be removed to find the original underneath, or am I seeing something that is not there?

[Larry Stauch]

OMG that forend is a Duzie! And look Russ if this SxS thing doesn't work out you can always be a writer entertaining us with your yarns.

It's just me, but I don't think I would get more than a grand in that project.

Take care and good shooting!

[Russ Lindsay]

Jerry, I do not believe the original forend is embedded in the new 1" X 2" piece of walnut. I will have the gun in my possession in a week or two and am going to have a much closer look. I see what you mean about appearing that way but I am afraid it is not the case.

[Russ Lindsay]

Larry, thanks for the comments. We Scotsmen do like to spin a yarn from time to time. ;<)

As for the budget, I am trying to keep this project to where I am not upside down on the investment versus value or worth equation. That said, I will likely finish this project no matter where it leads.

This is, after all, my first Parker so it has some sentimental significance. Second, the only way to ever get your money back out of one of these is to 1) finish the project (the unfinished project makes the gun nearly unsaleable save as a parts gun or finding someone as crazy as me) and 2) hold it for a number of years and hope the value goes up.

In looking for a 20 gauge one of my first thoughts was "I love 20 gauge guns for upland work" and I also had it in my mind that the current craze for over pricing small bore nicer grades might spill over into a little shooter Trojan. Only time will tell. I am going to keep it and shoot it no matter what.

With that in mind, I am on the hunt for another project gun like this one in the smaller bores. Be it 16 gauge or 28 gauge. These Trojans have kind of captured my heart. I think I will find another lonely soul in some out of the way location and bring it home, breath new life into it, and make it a shooter trojan.

As I acquire things my niche seems to be highly functional upper end blue collar toys. In fact my project fly fishing gear was described as just that by a dear friend who helped me set it up correctly. I may change my handle on PGCA to that.

Enjoy!

[Russ Lindsay]

Well, folks this tale has come to an end. After lots and lots of deliberation. Many conversations with knowledgeable folks. Some serious, "what do you really want to do here" conversations with myself; I have decided to pass on this project/restoration gun.

I have to tell you I am unsure if I am doing the right thing or not. I have waffled back and forth and still can see reasons I should have done this project.

But I have decided to move on. I have even, since, purchased another Parker, VH, in nice shape, shootable as it is, and ready to get down to some serious bird work. From a cost standpoint I would have been nearly a push. By the time I got the butt stock and forend work done, barrel work completed and screws and such resolved I would have been within a $150 of the price of the VH I bought. Both 20 gauge so I think this is the way to step into the Parker Collector's arena. Thanks again all, for your thoughts, encouragement, and kind analysis as I bumbled into my first double gun and further my first Parker.

One final thought before I get out of here. If anyone has any questions regarding this gun please PM me. I am considering this case closed. Good shooting, all.

[Pat Dugan]

Nobody had the heart to tell you that was a $ 700.00 Gun max, maybe