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Dean Freeman
10-13-2013, 05:48 PM
Just bought a 12ga DH Hammergun. I bought my first parker, a GH 16, just last July. I feel powerless to combat these overwhelming desires to collect Parkers. Anyone have any advice?

The SN Is 50494 anyone have any info on it? Should be 30 Dam bbls, cyl + cyl. #1 Frame.

Hooked

Eric Grims
10-13-2013, 05:49 PM
Post pictures then remortgage the house.

Mills Morrison
10-13-2013, 05:52 PM
Enjoy the ride. Only 2 Parkers since July? Sounds to me like you are staying on the wagon rather well

Dean Freeman
10-13-2013, 06:03 PM
Ha,ha. I'll get pics up when the gun arrives. You'll have to help me explain to my wife how I'm barely getting started. She's not so sure.

Robert Rambler
10-13-2013, 06:04 PM
Hang on tight it only gets worse !!:rotf::rotf:

bruce a lyons
10-13-2013, 06:28 PM
You can play Catch and Release. Alot of the fun is in the hunt and capture. And they dont care if you dump them. Beware, however, your condition may spread to include LC Smith or anything that says London on the barrels.

Dean Freeman
10-13-2013, 06:41 PM
You can play Catch and Release. Alot of the fun is in the hunt and capture. And they dont care if you dump them. Beware, however, your condition may spread to include LC Smith or anything that says London on the barrels.

First double was an over under Winchester 101 20g, next came LC smith 12 field grade, then I found my true love, Parker Bro's doubles. I'm sure there's a fox out there with my name on it too. Catch and release is a great concept, except of course for the remorse you'll inevitably feel when you let that "perfect" parker go in an attempt to procure another, and another... I am a willing participant in this awful affliction!

greg conomos
10-13-2013, 07:05 PM
Well, OK, if it is a DH then it is not a hammer gun.

Mills Morrison
10-13-2013, 07:22 PM
Mom used to give Dad grief about new guns. She made some comment that Dad's guns would breed and then have more guns. He does not have that many either.

Rick Losey
10-13-2013, 07:27 PM
She made some comment that Dad's guns would breed and then have more guns.


I think I have seen a couple of those :shock:

Dean Freeman
10-13-2013, 08:15 PM
Well, OK, if it is a DH then it is not a hammer gun.

Yep, I screwed that up. A D grade hammergun. I also added the SN on my original post. Pics to come in a week or two.

Ed Blake
10-13-2013, 08:20 PM
Nice find. They are hard to come by.

Gary Carmichael Sr
10-14-2013, 06:11 PM
Dean, Guess we have another convert Parker hammer guns are a thing of beauty, wish I had bought those that I passed up years ago, They were priced right I just did not have interest in hammer guns then. Missed out on some great deals on high grade guns too!

Mills Morrison
10-14-2013, 06:21 PM
It seems once you get one, it is not long before you have a bunch.

Ronald Moore
10-16-2013, 02:59 PM
I started out with one LC Smith 12 gauge 15 years ago, I am now up to 107 most doubles and rifles, guess they did breed no birth control for me.

Ron Moore

Rich Anderson
10-16-2013, 06:05 PM
There's no easy way to say this but to just come out and say it so here goes.......Your Screwed, it's terminal as it never gets better. Just waite untill you discover the small bore guns then watch the money fly out of the accounts. It's an addiction albet an enjoyable one but an addiction non the less:)

Bill Murphy
10-16-2013, 07:13 PM
Think about the poor SOB who is about 32 years old right now, has no money problems, loves double guns, and lives to be about 105. How many guns do you think he will have when he gives it up? Actually, he may have "All of them".

Dean Romig
10-16-2013, 09:41 PM
It seems once you get one, it is not long before you have a bunch.


You can say that again... and again... and again... :shock:

Dean Freeman
10-17-2013, 09:16 AM
Are there any lage bore parkers that could pull double duty as a retirement home? I'm sure I could make it work. My wife on the other hand...

Dean Romig
10-17-2013, 09:30 AM
Oh yes, they are out there and the fun is in finding them and then continuing to search flea markets, local auctions, attics, barns and chicken coops for more.

Dean Freeman
10-17-2013, 09:32 AM
Turns out the Parker I bought was misrepresented. The listing said it was a D grade, however it is in fact, a g grade hammer gun. Upon close scrutiny of distant photos provided by the auction house, i noted the absence of a spear point at the head of the stock. It should be noted that you could hardly see any markings in their photos. I was going solely on the auction house's description (anyone see a lesson forming here). So here is what happened. I called the auction house, they confirmed that it was a G grade and not a D grade gun. The owner promptly gave me the option to proceed with the transaction or to back away. I asked if he could send some detailed photos of the gun so I could verify its value and make an informed decision. I am waiting on a response.
So now you can see my quandry. I've bid a total of $1050 plus shipping and insurance. I'm unsure as to the type of bbls on the g grade. Twist will probably be a deal breaker for me, but if the bbls are regular damascus, should I keep the gun? The bbls do have a few dents. I've been told they are not serious and should be easily repaired. I understand that there are many varriables involved, but the real issue for me now is would I screw myself by accepting a gun that I would have put way too much money into. Looking into the lusty eyes of a parker gun is a bittersweet thing, when poor decisions put her in your hands.

More on this crime of passion as events unfold.

Bill Murphy
10-17-2013, 10:11 AM
Tell us how to access the listing and we will tell you whether you should keep it or not. A Grade 2 will have Damascus barrels. I remember a gunbroker gun that was a 2 and advertised as a 3. Tell us the item number and we'll look at it for you.

Dean Romig
10-17-2013, 10:44 AM
The "owner" should have also given you a value consideration based on the actual grade of the gun and the misrepresentation by the grade listed by the auction house (or perhaps the "owner").

Dean Freeman
10-17-2013, 10:47 AM
http://www.auctionzip.com/aflive.html?method=getLotInfo&lotref=127B13E647

See if this link will get you there. These bbls are damascus, just not sure if they are twist dam or other.

Dean Freeman
10-17-2013, 10:50 AM
The "owner" should have also given you a value consideration based on the actual grade of the gun and the misrepresentation by the grade listed by the auction house (or perhaps the "owner").

I agree Dean, though their policy does not seem to allow this. The option for me is either to take it at the original hammer price of $1058 or walk away. In their defense, this was a HUGE auction and i'm sure that this gun was hastily graded and put away to make room for the next gun. Still, gotta get things like this right if your in the biz. Hopefully I will be able to post the close ups if the owner can get some to me. I image they're pretty busy after this auction.

I'll get more info to everyone as soon as it's available. In the mean time check out the link I posted to the Parker "D" Grade hammergun. The pics are very poor, but when you see the wood, you'll know why I was temporarily blinded by parkeritis; or would this be a case of Occular Parkeropathy?

Dean Romig
10-17-2013, 11:03 AM
"In their defense"...?

If they had any doubt as to the grade of the gun they could have walked across the parking lot to the James D. Julia auction house for verification as to the grade of the gun.

In the gun's defense... it is made on a 1-Frame and is desirable as such. It appears, in the not-so-good photos, to be in pretty nice, possibly cleaned-up, condition and if the dents are not severe and are repairable, might be well worth the price.

Dean Freeman
10-17-2013, 11:15 AM
"In their defense"...?

If they had any doubt as to the grade of the gun they could have walked across the parking lot to the James D. Julia auction house for verification as to the grade of the gun.

In the gun's defense... it is made on a 1-Frame and is desirable as such. It appears, in the not-so-good photos, to be in pretty nice, possibly cleaned-up, condition and if the dents are not severe and are repairable, might be well worth the price.

The rep from Poulin's said that they had done just that. The person he uses to grade the gun had originally called it a D grade gun. I'm thinking that either this person had looked at one too many guns that day, or he was only used to grade the more expensive small bores and collectors pieces? Regardless, you're right; she's a "looks good from afar". Now I have to discover if she's "far from good". Also Dean, that 1 frame was the whole reason im in this mess! Well, that and the fact that i'm an unabashed addict.

Bill Murphy
10-17-2013, 01:27 PM
I will repeat what I said in an earlier post. A Grade 2 gun will have Damascus barrels, not Twist Steel barrels. The price doesn't sound bad if the gun is nice. Obviously, the other bidders knew it was a Grade 2 gun and you should have also. Next time you will know. Ask for a concession on total payment. If they refuse, chalk it up to your lack of experience.

Erick Dorr
10-17-2013, 02:13 PM
Another tip-off that this is a D2 grade the description of the engraving featuring birds. The auction house must of necessity use more than one person to grade this many guns. If their description is wrong as it is in this case they do not hold you to the contract. Poulins are good people. They also have an obligation to the consignor.
Look closely before you bid no one can assume your responsibility to verify for yourself.
Actually Gs described as Ds is not uncommon. I think it stems from the D on the barrel flats of most parkers having Damascus.
My notes indicate that this gun is "slightly loose." I don't remember if this is with the fore end on or off.

PS Inaccurate descriptions can be both bad or good if you are observant. Ex. One gun was described as having cut barrels but they looked righteous and are.
Erick

wayne goerres
10-17-2013, 02:20 PM
Hard to tell from the photos. The gun looks like it might be worth the money.

Chuck Bishop
10-17-2013, 03:34 PM
Here's a freebie, the order book states it's a Grade 2 with 30" Damascus barrels however the book doesn't say what the chokes were and the stock book is missing. I doubt that the gun was cyl & cyl when it left the factory or it would have been specified in the order book. Most of those guns were full and full unless specified.

Dean Freeman
10-17-2013, 06:55 PM
Another tip-off that this is a D2 grade the description of the engraving featuring birds. The auction house must of necessity use more than one person to grade this many guns. If their description is wrong as it is in this case they do not hold you to the contract. Poulins are good people. They also have an obligation to the consignor.
Look closely before you bid no one can assume your responsibility to verify for yourself.
Actually Gs described as Ds is not uncommon. I think it stems from the D on the barrel flats of most parkers having Damascus.
My notes indicate that this gun is "slightly loose." I don't remember if this is with the fore end on or off.

PS Inaccurate descriptions can be both bad or good if you are observant. Ex. One gun was described as having cut barrels but they looked righteous and are.
Erick

Erick, if you've already handled this gun and it was "slightly loose" i'm assuming that it will be best for me to move on. I'll probably do just that unless you can convince me otherwise. I'm bad for taking in strays, this one may just have to find another home.

Erick Dorr
10-17-2013, 10:13 PM
Dean,
I wouldn't attempt to convince you one way or the other. Ask Poulin if there is any looseness either with the fore end on or off. I just can't remember all that well. This lot and the next both looked interesting mostly because I don't own a top lever hammer gun. Hopefully you can get some close-up photos sent to you and listen to your heart or ...

Gary Carmichael Sr
10-18-2013, 08:55 AM
Dean, The gun looks like it has sculptured bolsters, sure sign of a early grade 2, Gary

Dean Freeman
10-18-2013, 12:55 PM
Ok, so here is a quote from the nice gentleman at the auction house. He has sent me pics, and has inspected the gun for movement. Here is a bit of his report... "Nice overall appearance. Action is very tight with forearm, with a slight wiggle without forearm".

A slight wiggle without forearm... I'm no gunsmith, but this sounds like the gun may be off face. Is this a plausible assumption? I'd love to hear what you guys think. Photos are forthcoming!!

http://parkerguns.org/forums/picture.php?albumid=499&pictureid=5385

http://parkerguns.org/forums/picture.php?albumid=499&pictureid=5382

http://parkerguns.org/forums/picture.php?albumid=499&pictureid=5384

http://parkerguns.org/forums/picture.php?albumid=499&pictureid=5383

And now for the reason I'm in this mess...

http://parkerguns.org/forums/picture.php?albumid=499&pictureid=5386

Dean Romig
10-18-2013, 01:05 PM
In my own opinion a "slight wiggle without forearm" is not really a concern as long as it is tight with no wiggle with forearm in place. Having this "slight wiggle" is not considered to be an indication that a Parker is "off face".

Dean Freeman
10-18-2013, 01:18 PM
In my own opinion a "slight wiggle without forearm" is not really a concern as long as it is tight with no wiggle with forearm in place. Having this "slight wiggle" is not considered to be an indication that a Parker is "off face".

Ok, So there are the pics I've been sent so far. I've requested pics of the barrels, dents, flats and watertable. Hopefully we will get our eyes full. She looks great but i'm worried about the wiggle.

Dean, the gentleman said that the gun was tight with fore-end on. Aside from that, I'm pretty happy so far.

I'd like to get ideas on value if anyone cares to ballpark it. I'm not looking for quotes, just want to know if it is safe to go ahead with the sale. My total investment will be $1055 plus shipping from ME to VA. I'd love to hear any input you guys would like to share.

By the way, it should be noted that the auction house has been nothing but helpful during this whole deal. I would not hesitate to utilize them in the future.

D.F.

Dean Romig
10-18-2013, 01:21 PM
The value of a lower grade Parker is generally determined by the price someone will pay for it. In your case, I think you are getting a good value for your dollar.

Mills Morrison
10-18-2013, 01:22 PM
One comment, the wood on the stock looks great which is often not the case for Parker hammer guns. At least in my experience. That should be a plus in weighing your decision

Dean Romig
10-18-2013, 01:25 PM
I just took a look at your pictures.... Nice Gun!!!

The checkering may have been recut but that's not an issue. If it was recut it is a very nice job.

I think she's a real keeper!!

Dean Freeman
10-18-2013, 01:26 PM
Here are the bbls...

http://parkerguns.org/forums/picture.php?albumid=499&pictureid=5388

http://parkerguns.org/forums/picture.php?albumid=499&pictureid=5387

I'll post any others that get sent, I'm hoping for flats and H2Otable.

Enjoy,
Dean

Mills Morrison
10-18-2013, 01:28 PM
I see it has a fishtail toplever which many of us consider a plus. The barrels look great.

Dean Freeman
10-18-2013, 01:33 PM
I just noticed the fishtail myself. Boy, i'm starting to get excited all over again. D grade or not, this is starting to look like a real gem.

Dean Freeman
10-18-2013, 02:08 PM
And finally, for the coup de grace...

http://parkerguns.org/forums/picture.php?albumid=499&pictureid=5389

Dean Freeman
10-18-2013, 02:17 PM
I am pretty sure it's a keeper. I'll wait for more feedback though before running to the bank!

David Holes
10-18-2013, 03:20 PM
Get out your wallet, looks like a keeper.

wayne goerres
10-18-2013, 03:28 PM
From what I can see of the barrel dents they dont look to bad. How about some pics. of the wood. Is there any rust in the bores. If it locks up tight and is on face I would keep it.

wayne goerres
10-18-2013, 03:32 PM
Ups sorry I missed a hole page with the pics. I would definatly keep it.

Rich Anderson
10-18-2013, 08:46 PM
I agree with Dean in that I wouldn't worry about a slight wiggle after all she's 100+ years old, I bet all your joints arn't perfect either I know mine arn't (damn Grouse hunting anyway) so IF you don't want to keep her just let me know where to send a check. I'll go $1100.00 to cover shipping:)

John Liles
10-19-2013, 08:30 AM
Great looking gun in my opinion, though I'm admittedly no expert on all things Parker! Since the barrels check out as originally 30", and are measuring out at cyl & cyl now, should Dean have them measure min barrel wall thickness? Barrels may have been polished or honed to the extent that they easily dent. (as possibly evidenced by the dents). Might be a worthwhile request.
John

Dean Freeman
10-21-2013, 08:35 AM
Sending payment today. I'll hopefully have my new parker in hand by next week. Thank you guys for all of your input and help in my decision making process. This gun is a beauty, and i'm very excited to give it a new home. I'll post more pics after i've had the oppotunity to ogle it for a day or two.

Rich Anderson
10-22-2013, 06:40 AM
The wait for a new Parker to arrive is just like when you were 6 yrs old waiting for Santa to come:)

wayne goerres
10-22-2013, 08:38 AM
No its worst. You are dealing with UPS. They might loose it or break it.

Dean Freeman
10-22-2013, 06:03 PM
No its worst. You are dealing with UPS. They might loose it or break it.

Ouch, that hurt just to read! :crying:

wayne goerres
10-22-2013, 06:47 PM
We all hope the UPS apes will be jentle with your parker and that the theives will leave it alone. I have not had one stolen yet but I have had two broken in half.

Mike Shepherd
10-23-2013, 09:16 AM
Broken in half? Surely they weren't shipped assembled? The only way to ship a shotgun is broken down.

USPS is my preferred shipper. But the gunsmiths and gun dealers don't always do it my way.

Best,

Mike

Mills Morrison
10-23-2013, 09:19 AM
One seller shipped a 10 gauge hammer gun to me without breaking it down. It made it all right though

wayne goerres
10-23-2013, 09:35 AM
Both guns were shipped to me. One was A double and it was broken down and the other was a muzzle loading cape gun and the barrels were seperated from the stock. Both were proke in two at the wrist. These people know better than to ship an assembled gun as do I.

charlie cleveland
10-23-2013, 07:07 PM
i too had a gun broke in too at the wrist in shipping..it was a d grade 10 ga and it was shipped broke down..i learned one thing from this have plenty of insurance on a shipped gun i had none... charlie

Mills Morrison
10-23-2013, 07:42 PM
I had the airline saw a fishing rod case (and the fishing rods) in two.

Dean Freeman
10-23-2013, 08:59 PM
These horror stories, while appropriate for Halloween, are scaring the shit out of me (pardon the French). I suppose a cautionary tale is good here though, and there may be time to catch them before the gun is shipped. I'm guessing here, but I would assume a reputable house like Poulin has much experience in this area, especially after such a large firearms auction. I also stated on my shipping info that I would like the gun insured for $3000. Assumptions being the mother of all tragedies, i'll double check. Thanks for the healthy dose of fear guys, I'll have nightmares till she arrives!

Mills, yours hurt especially... This is why I NEVER check my fly-rods!

Mills Morrison
10-23-2013, 10:12 PM
I just don't fly at all now. I can't stand the airlines. The last time we went somewhere we could not drive, we took a train and were treated like royalty.

Dean Freeman
11-02-2013, 10:38 AM
OK, after a long trip home to NC to visit family, I have returned to VA to find a lovely 12 gauge hammergun waiting on me. Boy, this gun is more beautiful that I could have imagined. It looks so incredible on the #1 frame. I can see why the smaller frame guns are so desirable. This scale of the 12 on a 1 frame works so perfectly. The wood has been refinished and checkering has been re-cut by a professional. The wood is so incredible, the figure and black lines in the walnut look like they belong on a much higher grade gun. When you hold this gun it feels, looks, and points better than my 16 on a one frame. You may have noticed that i'm in love. What a beauty! My wife is now convinced that I have a problem. So am I (not enough parkers).

I'll post more potos when I can put the gun down long enough to take some pics.

By the way, I was horrified to see that the gun was shipped in one piece. It had only been wrapped in paper, bubble wrap, and put in a cardboard box. The gun had not been broken down and had not been wrapped to the extent that I would have expected. Fortunately, se arrived without a scratch (best I can tell). Just goes to show that you should specify everything when it comes to how you want your babies shipped. A potentially expensive lesson learned.

Mills Morrison
11-05-2013, 02:43 PM
I got a 10 gauge Parker hammer gun shipped to me in one piece. It was a little disconcerting when I opened the package in my bedroom to find a potentially loaded gun, but nothing bad happened. The cynic in me finds it amusing that this gun made it right through the postal service, yet they chose to beat prints I mail to a pulp.

Dean Romig
11-05-2013, 03:07 PM
It just don't make any sense... :shock:

Harry Collins
11-05-2013, 04:05 PM
A quick note on chokes in old Parkers. Hardly any of the old ones had .729 bores. I have one with .752 bores and many with .735 to .736. You might find you have a little choke after all. Mine with .752 bores has .013 constriction in both barrels and is my sporting clays gun. In fact it is my go to gun in 12 gauge.

Harry

Dean Freeman
11-05-2013, 04:30 PM
OK, so here are some pictures of the hammergun profiled in this thread. It is safe in my hands, and I could not be happier. The pictures do not do this gun justice. Aesthetically, this gun is a gem. In regard to form and fit, I'm not sure you could do much better. I have quite a few more photos in an album you can check out in my profile. Please feel free to chime in with your insights, pro's, con's, or other comments. This is gun-porn at its best! By the way Dean Romig, there's a photo in here just for you. Enjoy!

http://parkerguns.org/forums/picture.php?albumid=502&pictureid=5412

http://parkerguns.org/forums/picture.php?albumid=502&pictureid=5413

http://parkerguns.org/forums/picture.php?albumid=502&pictureid=5415

http://parkerguns.org/forums/picture.php?albumid=502&pictureid=5419

http://parkerguns.org/forums/picture.php?albumid=502&pictureid=5421

http://parkerguns.org/forums/picture.php?albumid=502&pictureid=5423

http://parkerguns.org/forums/picture.php?albumid=502&pictureid=5425

http://parkerguns.org/forums/picture.php?albumid=502&pictureid=5428

http://parkerguns.org/forums/picture.php?albumid=502&pictureid=5435

http://parkerguns.org/forums/picture.php?albumid=502&pictureid=5427

http://parkerguns.org/forums/picture.php?albumid=502&pictureid=5437

http://parkerguns.org/forums/picture.php?albumid=502&pictureid=5438

http://parkerguns.org/forums/picture.php?albumid=502&pictureid=5440

http://parkerguns.org/forums/picture.php?albumid=502&pictureid=5442

http://parkerguns.org/forums/picture.php?albumid=502&pictureid=5443

http://parkerguns.org/forums/picture.php?albumid=502&pictureid=5444

http://parkerguns.org/forums/picture.php?albumid=502&pictureid=5445

This one's for Dean Romig
http://parkerguns.org/forums/picture.php?albumid=502&pictureid=5447

http://parkerguns.org/forums/picture.php?albumid=502&pictureid=5448

http://parkerguns.org/forums/picture.php?albumid=502&pictureid=5449

http://parkerguns.org/forums/picture.php?albumid=502&pictureid=5450

http://parkerguns.org/forums/picture.php?albumid=502&pictureid=5451

http://parkerguns.org/forums/picture.php?albumid=502&pictureid=5453

http://parkerguns.org/forums/picture.php?albumid=502&pictureid=5452

All in all I'd say a good case for refinishing stocks! She's a beauty, and the checkering is fantastic; feels pretty damn good too. Wonder if the finish on the bbls is original?I can't wait to shoot her. Special thank's to a particular member for his offer to help me get to know my parkers a little better. I love the community that this group offers, and can't wait to get involved. Note what I assume is fouling due to black powder residue; there's a little in the bores too, but they still shine like crazy. I sincerely hope you ladies and gent's enjoy these photos and my journey to obtain this piece of history as much as I did. Wonder if she has a history? I can't wait to start digging.

Dean Romig
11-05-2013, 05:39 PM
Dean, that's a great Parker and the wood is spectacular!

I'm guessing the picture of the fishtail lever opening short of the cocked right hammer is meant for me.... or is it the picture of the 'nose of the comb', knowing how much emphasis I put on the variations of Parker stocker's rendition of this feature. Thanks Dean, I appreciate those pics!
It would not surprise me to learn that the barrels display their original finish.
Congratulations on a wonderful Grade 2. I'm sure you will enjoy it.

Dean Freeman
11-05-2013, 05:48 PM
Dean, that's a great Parker and the wood is spectacular!

I'm guessing the picture of the fishtail lever opening short of the cocked right hammer is meant for me.... or is it the picture of the 'nose of the comb', knowing how much emphasis I put on the variations of Parker stocker's rendition of this feature. Thanks Dean, I appreciate those pics!
It would not surprise me to learn that the barrels display their original finish.
Congratulations on a wonderful Grade 2. I'm sure you will enjoy it.

Yes Dean, you nailed it. The nose of the comb is the pic I took just for you. Coincidentally, that detail was the first thing I noticed about my first Parker. It remains one of my favorite details unique to Parker guns.

Best,
Dean

Bill Murphy
11-05-2013, 06:19 PM
Harry Collins is right. You don't know the chokes of your gun until you measure the bores and chokes with a micrometer.

Harry Collins
11-05-2013, 08:19 PM
Dean,

This was a great buy. Many of these older Parker's had very shoot able dimensions. Those from the 1890's that I've owned had about 3" of drop at the heel where those I've owned before and after were in the 2 1/2 to 2 3/4". I shoot any modest velocity shell off the shelf (1150 to 1180 fps) through an 1881 with Twist Steel barrels and again this is my go to 12 gauge. It has taken 20 plus years of trepidation to screw up the nerve to do this. As a confidence builder in Parker barrels I would recommend shooting RST shells. 2 1/2" or 2 3/4" shells will work well and the pressures and velocities are correct for killing clay or fowel.

Kindest,
Harry

Dean Freeman
11-07-2013, 07:31 AM
Thanks Harry,

I'm currently shooting RST shells and like their products though I am seriously thinking about reloading in order to customize my own loads. It would certainly be nice to be able to use cheap Wal-Mart target loads for fun, but i'm a little too nervous to do this without the assistance of a qualified pro. It's a tad more expensive to run through flats of RST ammo, but until I have a comparable alternative, I'll stick with them. I've often wondered how to calculate PRESSURES based on the info given on shotshell boxes. Do lower velocities translate into lower pressures? I'm guessing no, but would like to know more.

By the way, In case you're looking for gun porn, there's a huge spread on page 7;)

Harry Collins
11-07-2013, 07:58 AM
Dean,

The quick answer is no. SAAMI (Sporting Arms and Ammunition Manufacturing Institute) allows working pressures in shotgun shells to be about 11,500 psi. Though a shotgun shell may have a modest velocity and payload it could have a higher pressure. I believe it was John Brindle that wrote some articles in Double Gun Journal early on about smokeless powder for black powder. What he deduced was that pressures at 8,000 psi and below would be safe for Damascus guns in good order. Sherman Bell also wrote a number of articles in DGJ titled Finding Out For Myself and produced pressure curves from certain smokeless loads that were the same as black powder loads. He also blew up two Parkers, one Damascus and the other Vulcan steel, of the same frame size same year of production and about the same grade. THey both blew at the same place and at the same pressure which was about 31,400 psi. My thought is if the barrels have not been messed with they are safe to shoot. I still have all my fingers, but i'm not finished shooting. I do have to give credit to Ross Seyfried for getting me started shooting my Damascus Parkers. He did an article in Guns and Ammo in the 1980's about low pressure loads for Damascus guns. My father was not happy about it. We would shoot sporting clays and about half way around the course he would ask to shoot my Parker (I have the Parker he found under the Christmas Tree as a child). He would break both targets and I would offer him two more shells. He would shake his head no and give the gun back.

Harry

Dean Freeman
11-07-2013, 03:55 PM
Dean,

The quick answer is no. SAAMI (Sporting Arms and Ammunition Manufacturing Institute) allows working pressures in shotgun shells to be about 11,500 psi. Though a shotgun shell may have a modest velocity and payload it could have a higher pressure. I believe it was John Brindle that wrote some articles in Double Gun Journal early on about smokeless powder for black powder. What he deduced was that pressures at 8,000 psi and below would be safe for Damascus guns in good order. Sherman Bell also wrote a number of articles in DGJ titled Finding Out For Myself and produced pressure curves from certain smokeless loads that were the same as black powder loads. He also blew up two Parkers, one Damascus and the other Vulcan steel, of the same frame size same year of production and about the same grade. THey both blew at the same place and at the same pressure which was about 31,400 psi. My thought is if the barrels have not been messed with they are safe to shoot. I still have all my fingers, but i'm not finished shooting. I do have to give credit to Ross Seyfried for getting me started shooting my Damascus Parkers. He did an article in Guns and Ammo in the 1980's about low pressure loads for Damascus guns. My father was not happy about it. We would shoot sporting clays and about half way around the course he would ask to shoot my Parker (I have the Parker he found under the Christmas Tree as a child). He would break both targets and I would offer him two more shells. He would shake his head no and give the gun back.

Harry

You'd probably understand all too well when I say that practically everyone i've discussed shooting my parkers with has gasped in horror at my mention of shooting guns with damascus barrels. I've always been the stubborn type of ass that has to "find out for myself". This is why I simply did some research to see if it was safe to shoot these old guns on my own and did not depend on rumor or popular myth. If only folks could apply that same approach to politics we'd have fewer politicians and more public servants (but I digress). I'm so glad i'm able to enjoy my guns safely. I'm too much a novice to "experiment", but I have learned enough about my guns and their barrels so as not to be scared. RST gives me quite a bit of confidence and their lighter pressures have the added benefit of lower recoil (a feature that has allowed my tiny wife to finally enjoy shooting with me. Perhaps I'll turn her into a Parker collector too. On second thought, we can hardly afford one collector let alone two!

Rich Anderson
11-07-2013, 05:43 PM
If you decide to roll your own I'm sure you can get a starting point from members here. I load 12,16 & 20 all 2.5 inch low pressure and I shoot a lot of damascuss guns, in fact every shotgun I bought this year was damascuss:)