Parker 1/2 frames

[Dave Tercek]

I saw a nice Parker 1/2 frame gun at the Vintagers last week. It is a really nice gun. Compared to the same grade in a 1 or 1 1/2 frame the price is more than double . Do these guns really bring the premium price asked ?
Thanks, Dave

[Brian Dudley]

There were very few of them made in the Remington (Ilion) era. Maybe as low as a few hundred.
The general belief is that the 1/2 frame was developed in Meriden around 1930. This is based on surviving factory engineers drawings. A run of frames may have even been made in Meriden, but not put into production. They were later used by Remington. Possibly when their supply of 1 frames ran low or out.

This belief can be came to based on a couple different supposed "facts"...
All 1/2 frame guns found have been Remington (Illion) made. And it is believed that Remington never actually made any Parker frames. They only were usng up left over Meriden stock.

It remains a mystery. And until a Meriden (Parker Bros.) made 1/2 frame gun is found, it is hard to say any different.

Craig Reynolds wrote a good article on this subject in the Winter 2009 Parker Pages. And I Also have an article in the Summer 2013 DGJ that touches on this topic.

CSMC currently has for sale a Meriden made BH grade that is advertised as a 1/2 frame gun. When I saw it, my interest was obviously peaked. But farther investigation revealed it to be originally a 16g gun that was returned to Remington at some point and it was fitted with 12g barrels. And the barrels fitted were marked with 1/2 on the lug since that is the frame size the barrels would have been made for.

[Bill Murphy]

As Brian suggests, there are #1 frame guns out there with barrels marked "1/2". It is assumed that 1/2 frame guns were made in the period of the factory blueprints, around 1930. As I recall, there are stock book entries for a series of 1/2 frame experimental guns earlier than the Remington acquisition. Craig's article may list them.

[Dave Tercek]

Thanks for the info. I checked out both articles. They are interesting guns. But what is your opinion on the premium prices asked for them ?
Dave

[Brian Dudley]

That is a topic of my article Bill. At least as it relates to 1/2 frames. Sine my writing was about a gun (226709) that was long thought to be something it is not. TPS assumed that number 226709 was an experimental gun for the 1/2 frame. But in my finding of this gun and documenting of it, it is in fact an experimental gun, but it is nota 1/2 frame. It is a 1-1/2 frame. It was my conclusion, that in the days prior to the use of rubber stamps for frame sizes In the stock books, that all 1/2 hand written entries were actually to mean 1-1/2 size. This hand written period covered about 4 years if I remember correctly.

My suspicion is that if Stock books were to examined after the rubber stamping for frame size was used, a 1/2 size would NOT be found recorded in Meriden records.

Regarding value... Anything that is hard to find and carries mystique is going to command a premium. In general, Ilion made guns can command some premium due to be few were are in the grand scheme of things.

Many assume the 1/2 frame as be some ultra light 12g. But many who own or have inspected legit 1/2 frame guns find they are not all that much lighter than 1 frames.

For anyone out there that does not get the DGJ and is wondering what I am speaking about. I urge you... Order the Summer 2013 issue and enjoy it.

[Eldon Goddard]

Many assume the 1/2 frame as be some ultra light 12g. But many who own or have inspected legit 1/2 frame guns find they are not all that much lighter than 1 frames.


That is what I was wondering. I wonder what the lightest 12 ga hammerless was?

[Mills Morrison]

Ron Kirby did an article on the 1/2 frame in one of the old Parker Pages.

[Bruce Day]

xxx

[Bill Murphy]

I have an order copy for a six pound 12 gauge. If I can dig it out, I will post the specifics. The AAHE 12 offered for sale at Robin Hollow was ordered at 6 1/2 pounds from Abercrombie and Fitch. I believe it is a 28" gun. My 1/2 frame DHE weighs about 6 1/2 pounds with the 12 gauge barrels and about the same with the 16 gauge barrels. Both sets are 28", but the stock is very small.

[Bill Murphy]

The AAHE I mentioned is owned by a friend who bought it at auction for a very low price after it was advertised as "wall thickness below recommended minimum" implying that it had been honed. It was not honed after being made at Parker Brothers. It was just ordered to be very light. I couldn't afford the gun at the time, so I recommended that my friend bid on it.

[Chuck Bishop]

I'm sure there are more 1/2 frame guns out there than previously thought although still scarce. The last few stock books show 1/2 stamped for frame size however I can't believe all these were true 1/2 frames. I'm guessing that their 1 1/2 frame stamp broke and they never made a new one.

Here is a link to my 1/2 frame VH 2 barrel set in the Albums section. The original barreled gun is all Meriden made in late 1937. A few months into 1938 (repair codes) it was sent back to Ilion for the second set of barrels made in Ilion. Both barrels were 28", original choked M/F and the Remington barrel Cyl/ImpCyl.

http://parkerguns.org/forums/album.php?albumid=358

[Dean Romig]

Chuck, I can't read the frame size stamps on the barrel lugs, can you tell us what the stamp on the original barrel set reads?





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[Brian Dudley]

The barrel lugs on 1/2 frame guns are stamped with a large “1/2”. About twice the size of a 1-1/2 stamp.

And the 1/2 stamp is usually lightly struck. About half as deep an usually seen on other frame sizes. And the font is very fine.

[Brian Dudley]

Chuck,

When you reference the marks in the stock book, are you in fact speaking of actual stamped marks? Or hand written marks.

In the writing of my article that touched on this topic, it was confirmed that they were hand writing in 1/2 as an abbreviation for 1-1/2 (in the mid-late 1920s). Whereas in later books they actually used a 1-1/2 stamp.

[James L. Martin]

Photo of 1/2 Mark on GH 12ga, gun made in 1899 on a 1 frame, barrel by Remington with a repair code OJ3 July 1940.

[Chuck Bishop]

Dean, I can't read the frame size on the Meriden barrels, just a 12 is visable for gauge. The Remington barrels have a large 1/2 stamp. I took digital measurements on 1/2 frame dimensions and they are amazingly accurate.

Brian, you are right, I was wrong. The format used for the stock books changed from a horizontal to a vertical format starting with stock book # 75. All the stock books prior to stock book # 75 did not list frame sizes. Stock book books 81 and 82 used stamps and they show the 1 1/2 rubber stamp markings. Stock books 75,76,78, and 79 have the frame sizes written in by hand. See the example. All the guns listed in the stock books were well prior to the 1/2 frame being introduced so where you see the handwritten 1/2, it really is 1 1/2.

[Dean Romig]

Thanks Chuck.

Thanks Brian.





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[Bill Murphy]

I believe the later rubber stamped 1/2 frames in the stock books are actual 1/2 frame guns. The research into the 1/2 frame production could have been simplified if the stock books had been available to Craig Reynolds. Maybe they were available to him. I don't remember.

[Brian Dudley]

Chuck,
Please clarify if in fact there are any rubber hand stamped 1/2 frame entries in the stock books?
Didn't the stock books stop by the time things went to Ilion?

[Bill Holcombe]

There was a fairly nice looking runge engraved 1/2 frame dhe on gunsinternational I would have loved to snag.

[Bill Murphy]

Brian, there are rubber stamped 1/2 frame markings in late stock books. There may be some references in TPS.

[Chuck Bishop]

Well Bill, just to make sure, I reviewed Stock Book # 82, the last stock book which goes from July 1930 to January 1936. The S/N's go from 235038 to 238934. That's 193 pages and I didn't find a single 1/2 frame stamp listed. I don't think there is any need to go prior to July 1930 because all the 1/2 frame guns found in the chart on this thread are all 240xxx serial numbers. The Remington IBM cards do go into the 240xxx range but don't list frame sizes.

Bill, unless you have stock books that I don't have, I think you are mistaken. If you have any S/N's I'd be happy to see them and let you know what I find.

[Brian Dudley]

Thanks for confirming chuck.

I severely doubted that a legit 1/2 frame stamp was in the stock books since there are no stock books that go that late and into the Remington Era.

Like I said previously, the 1/2 frame was developed in 1930. As dated on the engineering drawing for it. And frames were not actually made until who know when for sure.

[Jean Swanson]

Well I hate to put a damper on all, but I know for a FACT , that came from the higher management of Remington in writing on design plans, that ALL 1/2 frame guns were to be produced on 1 frame actions. So, I guess that early 1 frame 12 bore can be considered as 1/2 frame guns ??? What say ye ??
Allan

[Mike Franzen]

How would that work?

[Jean Swanson]

Mike

I have no idea;however, some of the early Parker 12 bores were on 1 frame actions. Across the pond, I know 12 bores on lite frames/actions are called "12/20's".

Allan

[Brian Dudley]

How would that work?

The 1/2 frame was a cross between the 0 and 1 frame dimensionally.

That is why you will see examples of 16g guns rebarreled to 12g using 1/2 frame barrels.

[Bill Murphy]

Brian, sorry but I forgot to post a message to you after going through all of my sources. I could not find a rubber stamped 1/2, as Chuck has confirmed. Now my question for Chuck is "Are there 1/2 frame guns in stock book 82, with a hand written frame size notation?"

[Dean Romig]

I know for a FACT , that came from the higher management of Remington in writing on design plans, that ALL 1/2 frame guns were to be produced on 1 frame actions. Allan


I’m betting that Allan can probably dig out that very document or a copy of it.

His knowledge of this stuff and his associations with old-time Remington officers and managers certainly precedes any of ours. Those folks at Remington these days for the most part, don’t even care about the Parker venture let alone know the history of it.





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[Chuck Bishop]

Trying to post a picture of the 1/2 frame schematics

[Chuck Bishop]

One more time.

[Dean Romig]

Copied and saved - Thanks Chuck





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[Brian Dudley]

I was JUST looking at that engineering drawing for the 1/2 frame myself to refresh things in my head.

The major frame dimensions (except for width) are the same as 1 frames. But the internal millings for the hammers, pins and plungers are 0 frame. And the barrels are a mix of both.

So, Allens info on Remington using 1 frames to make 1/2 frame guns could be supported by this in that Remington may have started with partially machined 1 frame blanks that were at the point in the process to where the 0 frame sized internal machining could be done.

I guess that the analysis would have to be done to completed 1 frame guns to see if the internal millings and parts are the same as 1 frame or 0 frame. ?


OR... it could be that Meriden had a bunch of barrels made up and marked as 1/2 frame and Remington wanted to use them and just plain put them on fully machined 1 frames. So the question is, are existing 1/2 frame guns on ACTUAL 1/2 size frame as per the engineering print. Or are they just 1 frames with 1/2 frame marked barrels.

The print shows them to have the 00 size lightening cuts in them. I do not thing that every 1/2 frame I have seen has had the cuts in them. Chucks example doesn't.

[Mike Franzen]

Well I hate to put a damper on all, but I know for a FACT , that came from the higher management of Remington in writing on design plans, that ALL 1/2 frame guns were to be produced on 1 frame actions. So, I guess that early 1 frame 12 bore can be considered as 1/2 frame guns ??? What say ye ??
Allan

So are you saying, dimensionally 1/2 frame and 1 frame guns are the same? Should be simple enough to measure.

[Chuck Bishop]

My measurememts were + - .005 compairing my gun to the table in TPS.

[Dave Tercek]

As per the above specifications and measurements it looks like a frame that excepts #1 frame barrels and a #0 frame forend.
Has the old theory that Parker was trying to use up old parts, (#1frames and barrels and #0 forends), been disproven ? It always seemed logical to me.

[Dean Romig]

Are there ANY examples of 1/2 frame guns that actually have the "lightening slots cut into flats same as 00 frame"....?


I am left wondering why the 1/2 frame was ever even designed to accept "light 12 or 16 gauge" barrels when in fact Parker Brothers had already produced both 12's and 16's on the number 1 frame. It all seems to me to have been an exercise in futility....... :shock:





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[Dave Noreen]

Lets see if I can make this better.

79871

[Jean Swanson]

The drawings that I have seen , the date I do not recall maybe later when Remington moved the entire Parker gun operation to up stat NY, but there was a statement that read"all 1/2 frame guns will use 1 frame actions". One of these date I will verify this and post my findings.

Best to all
Allan