Parker Skeet Originality

[Erick Hodge]

I would like some help checking authenticity and originality of a 16 ga Parker Skeet gun (#1frame) SN 240671. I would also like to know how many were manufactured.
Thank you!

[Erick Hodge]

More pictures of VH skeet gun

[Eldon Goddard]

Book says 16 gauge 26'' ejectors, single trigger, and capped pistol grip

[Dean Romig]

Hello Erick. I've looked at that gun time and time again but couldn't get past the repaired stock head split.
The right stock man can make that all disappear and make it look like it was never damaged.... but it absolutely has to be the right man.

Did you buy it? Congratulations if you did.




**Edited after reconsideration**

[Eric Eis]

Very nice gun but I am going to have to disagree with Dean, the colors do not look right to me that's just my opinion. I do agree with Dean get the stock fixed by someone who knows what they are doing.

[Dean Romig]

Eric, you're the Parker skeet gun expert - from your experience what method of color case hardening was Remington using in 1937?

I know the Serialization book shows a capped pistol grip but sometimes I shrug off what the book says about the type of grip a gun has.

I suppose it could be DelGrego work but I'll need to be convinced by some kind of evidence.

[Dean Romig]

Okay, I'm backing off my original opinion.

For that amount of color the engraved borders on the frame should be absolutely crisp and sharp. That engraving appears to have been lightly buffed. I was able to see that by enlarging the picture.

Of course, without the gun in hand, opinions are just that.

[Eric Eis]

Okay, I'm backing off my original opinion.

For that amount of color the engraved borders on the frame should be absolutely crisp and sharp. That engraving appears to have been lightly buffed. I was able to see that by enlarging the picture.

Of course, without the gun in hand, opinions are just that.

It's a very nice gun and the fact that the book says capped pistol grip means little to me. It's just what you said about the engraving and the look of the colors that just jump out at me. If the gun was in my hand that might be totally different and I would have a different idea.

[Pete Lester]

In several of the pictures I can see a well defined line on both sides of the receiver, it runs from the bottom of the breech ball to the stock. Lawrence DelGrego showed this to me on a gun in his shop and told me that line is deliberate and it indicates their shop had recased the gun in the past.

[Eldon Goddard]

I probably should have said that the book has been wrong before, but I don't have the knowledge to make the call either way just wanted to tell him what the book said.

[Dean Romig]

Hmmmm....

I see what you're talking about Pete. I sure wish we had this gun in hand to be able to examine it closely.

[Pete Lester]

Interestingly enough the same line is present on the DelGrego restored Trojan currently featured on the PGCA web site's home page.

[Erick Hodge]

Please pardon my ignorance but I am looking for the split. Please help me locate it.

There seems to be a gap to the right of the tang that might would indicate a crack at the back of the tang. I have not bought it. The seller is swearing that the colors are original but I always doubt parker colors.

He also claims 90% but I don't see it. Especially with the fore arm damage and a possible stock split.

[Pete Lester]

Please pardon my ignorance but I am looking for the split. Please help me locate it.

There seems to be a gap to the right of the tang that might would indicate a crack at the back of the tang. I have not bought it. The seller is swearing that the colors are original but I always doubt parker colors.

He also claims 90% but I don't see it. Especially with the fore arm damage and a possible stock split.

The little round black dot on both cheeks of the stock is indicative of a repair for a split stock head.

[Erick Hodge]

I see that!

Thank you!

I am assuming this is about a $3500 gun?

[Dean Romig]

That would be between you and the seller. He hasn't reduced his price in about two years. Apparently he is convinced it is original. I suspect he bought it as "original".

[Destry L. Hoffard]

If a gun was shot or used enough to get a stock split I'd think it wouldn't have case colors quite that strong. I suppose it could have gotten damaged the first day the guy took it out but that's a stretch......

Destry

[Dean Romig]

Right Destry, and the fact that there is significant oil staining in the wood supports what you said. Especially in the forend wood which is probably original to the gun.

[ed good]

perhaps a research letter would reveal some more info?

and, if the receiver has been rehardened, then that opens up a can of worms, re: the single trigger...parker single triggers are suspect enough without introducing the potential problems of receiver warpage and the necessity to refit the trigger and related parts...

but a nice looking gun, never the less.

[ed good]

is there a thru bolt length wise in the forend? if not, then that is a big clue that the beaver tail forend is not factory.

[Daryl Corona]

I totally agree Pete, it's a DelGrego recase job. I have 2 guns done by him,one is a 20 ga. skeet gun, PG, and the other is a 20 ga. straight grip. Both have that telltale line. Skeet guns normally have the single trigger so I think that's not an issue. Nice gun either way Erick.

[Dean Romig]

is there a thru bolt length wise in the forend? if not, then that is a big clue that the beaver tail forend is not factory.

It has the correct forend iron for a beavertail with the forend reinforcing rod but option code 5 doesn't support the BTFE. Code 5 is for ejectors and single trigger only.

[Rich Anderson]

The gun has been recase colored and the stock undoubtly repaired. I have a VHE 16 skeet with a repair in the same area of the stock and have never had a problem. The book saying it was a PG is of no importance to me. If this is the gun on gunbroker that the seller is asking 9K for and advertising as original than the DEA needs to pay him a visit because whatever he's smoking isn't legal. Its a nice gun and will make for an excellent shooter...for the right price.

I have never had a problem with Parker's single trigger and have them on several guns. All the skeet guns came with a SST.

[CraigThompson]

If I wasn't so GD poor I'd buy that gun to replace my K-32 skeet set !

Regardless of whether it's original etc that would make a lovely gun to "actually" shoot skeet with and use in the dove field . Well atleast for me it would !

[CraigThompson]

The gun has been recase colored and the stock undoubtly repaired. I have a VHE 16 skeet with a repair in the same area of the stock and have never had a problem. The book saying it was a PG is of no importance to me. If this is the gun on gunbroker that the seller is asking 9K for and advertising as original than the DEA needs to pay him a visit because whatever he's smoking isn't legal. Its a nice gun and will make for an excellent shooter...for the right price.

I have never had a problem with Parker's single trigger and have them on several guns. All the skeet guns came with a SST.

It's the one on GB but he has it on their at this time for $7500 .

[Rich Anderson]

If he came to his sences and put it at $4500-5000 he'd probably sell it.

[John Taddeo]

I also have one that was re-cased with the same tell tale line. I still can't figure how a scribe line would change the color contrast (look at the pics again). Anyone know how the line occurs.

[Bill Murphy]

OK, I guess $40 for a look at the IBM card would be too much.

[Daryl Corona]

I also have one that was re-cased with the same tell tale line. I still can't figure how a scribe line would change the color contrast (look at the pics again). Anyone know how the line occurs.

The line occurs from the buffing of the frame I think.

[John Taddeo]

That makes sense, funny how the case colors react to the different surface finish. One would think the whole frame is buffed the same prior to hardening.

[Daryl Corona]

The breach balls probably hinder the buffing process. Just a guess on my part.

[Dean Romig]

OK, I guess $40 for a look at the IBM card would be too much.


$40 for a PGCA Annual Membership and then $40 for a research letter - but that's still a savings of $20 over the $100 for a letter for a non-member.... but Bill, you're a member so it's just $40 for a research letter with everything that's on the IBM card if it is available.... :whistle:

[Dennis V. Nix]

I can't say I have a lot of experience with Parker case colors but when I saw the very first photo I thought they were not original case colors. They simply do not look right to me. I sure like that gun though.

Dennis

[Brian Dudley]

Rich,
Maybe he has a prescription for what the slower is smoking, thus making it legal if he is in one of those type of states.
Anyway... Yeah, that line is from buffing. It shows up grew in that photo and I is a good example of it. The line can be very difficult to see most times and it normally needs to be held just right in the light to see it. I am sure he flash on the camera made it stand out here.
But who needs a buffing like to determine that cyanide case colors are not original.

Overall a very nice gun. It does have the correct forend iron for a BTFE. It looks like it also has a second pin back farther in the wrist in front of the checkering pattern.

Interesting that the gun books as a PG stock. There is nothing that I see that jumps out as the buttstock not being replaced. Other than the quality of wood being much higher than normally seen on a VH. But Remington did hat a lot.

[Bill Murphy]

Brian, the type of grip on late guns in the serialization book is a crapshoot. For one, the IBM card probably doesn't specify the grip type, and some kind of default was used. Notice that all guns in the SB have grip type specified. That is what is known as a "clue". If I had the remotest interest in this gun, my $40.00 would be in the mail. Amazing things can be found on the IBM cards.

[Brian Dudley]

I would kind of think that many legit "skeet" guns were Straight Grip. That seemed to be a popular feature in a skeet gun.

[Eric Eis]

I would kind of think that many legit "skeet" guns were Straight Grip. That seemed to be a popular feature in a skeet gun.

Brian,
I have a 20 ga skeet gun that has a PG and from the IBM card I know the man who purchased it. A well known skeet shooter that Bill helped me research. You never know and yes the rest of my skeet guns are straight grip.

[Bill Murphy]

Yes, Brian, many legit skeet guns are straight grip. Many are pistol grip. If we are interested in a $7500 Del Grego skeet gun, a $40 trip to IBM land is certainly worth a shot. Del Grego turned many standard guns into skeet guns. This gun doesn't show any sign of being a fake skeet gun, but for $40, I would be ordering a letter.

[Bill Murphy]

OK, here's what I know about skeet guns and Del Grego skeet conversions. If a gun is generally in skeet configuration originally, a LDG conversion to skeet markings is not easily discovered because, again generally, skeet is not mentioned on the IBM card or the stock book entry. All LDG had to do was apply the choke markings on the barrel flat. Grip styles are not generally specified on IBM cards and often not specified accurately in stock book entries. Butt treatments are not generally specified on IBM cards or stock book entries, so a field gun restocked with a checkered butt and skeet choke markings is miraculously a "Skeet Gun". For these reasons and a couple of others, a skeet configured gun with Del Grego colors is always suspect of being a skeet conversion. With all these facts in mind, it is just about impossible to determine that a 26" gun with skeet features is an original skeet gun. When such a gun has Del Grego colors, suspicions go up exponentially. The occasionally seen skeet marked, Del Grego colored gun with 28" barrels or double triggers is almost certainly a conversion skeet gun.

[Daryl Corona]

That's mine Bill. 20ga, 28", single Parker trigger, PG, checkered butt, marked SK in/ SK out, definitely done by LDG. I still consider it a skeet gun though.

[Bill Murphy]

I am not criticizing such guns as Daryl's, only stating that they were not likely skeet guns when they left the factory. I own some Del Grego restorations, love them. The "skeet in" and "skeet out" stamps on a conversion are just part of the Del Grego mystique.

[Destry L. Hoffard]

I had the opportunity to buy a 12 gauge "skeet" gun several years ago. It had all the right bells and whistles including the choke markings, but upon measuring the actual choke in the barrel they came out full and fuller. I didn't buy it, always wondered if it was a Delgrego gun.

DLH

[Daryl Corona]

Mine is choked .005/.007.

[Brian Dudley]

I had the opportunity to buy a 12 gauge "skeet" gun several years ago. It had all the right bells and whistles including the choke markings, but upon measuring the actual choke in the barrel they came out full and fuller. I didn't buy it, always wondered if it was a Delgrego gun.

DLH

Now that is an odd one Destry. The age old saying is that a sucker is born every minute. It just wasn't you with that one.

Regarding LDG skeet guns. It might be beat to sum up that if you see a "skeet gun" with cyanide colors on it, proceed with caution.

[Dean Romig]

True Brian - Remington never used the cyanide color case hardening process right to the end of Parker production when WW II broke out.

[Charlie Larkin]

Excellent analysis. Thanks everyone for contributing.

[Bill Murphy]

What process did Remington use?

[Dean Romig]

Bill, according to TPS, Remington used a bone and charcoal case hardening process but were not able to exactly duplicate the Meriden colors after the move to Ilion. However, Remington continued to use the bone and charcoal process up to the end of Parker production when the war put an end to sporting arms manufacture. After the war Remington ceased the bone and charcoal process and used the cyanide process and Del Grego would bring his frames to Remington for color case hardening in the fifties and maybe even as early as the very late forties from what I have read.

[dwight pugh]

did Del Grego use Remington repair code stamps too ?

[Bill Murphy]

No.