Loading the Short Ten by Pete Lester

[Mark Ouellette]

What you need to get into shooting and reloading the (2 7/8") short ten by PGCA member Pete Lester:

A good single stage press - MEC is the most economical.

A short kit for loading 2 7/8" shells.

A hull trimmer - easily made

A hull skivver - optional but handy.

A roll crimper - Ballistic products sells one that goes into a electric drill.

A hull vise - To hold shells while applying a roll crimp

10ga hulls - harder to find and pricier than 12ga

10ga wads - Remington SP10 or BP Decimax/VP100

Filler wads - Fiber is good and economical, 16ga fits nicely in SP10 wad, 1/2" fiber wads are easily split with finger nail if shorter is needed.

Overshot cards - If using a roll crimp.

Recipe's - See Pete Lester's spreadsheet (posted on 5/3/12 at this link) http://parkerguns.org/forums/showthread.php?t=6282&highlight=SHort+spreadsheet

The process of loading the 2 7/8" 10ga is the same as loading any other gauge with the addition of hull trimming and use of a filler wad. It's a pretty simple process.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=owXs4Eg__BE[/quote]

[Paul Harm]

Let's not forget a very important item, the scale. Powder charges need to be verified. BP's or Precision Reloading both sell the new digital scales rather cheap.

[Rick Losey]

Let's not forget a very important item, the scale. Powder charges need to be verified. BP's or Precision Reloading both sell the new digital scales rather cheap.

great advise. i found most of my MEC bushings significantly off for SR7625 according to the chart.

[jim garrett]

When I started loading for the short 10 I used a roll crimp. I have since switched to a 6 point fold crimp and I am able to get many more loads per hull, and as we know, 10 gauge Federal or Remington hulls are expensive.

[Rick Losey]

since Remington hulls are in such short supply, and Federal are harder to find than Sasquatch - has anyone tried the Cheddite 10 gauge hulls-
of course new low pressure 2 7/8 loads would need to be worked up for them

[jim garrett]

I am not familiar with the 10 ga Cheddite hull. Maybe Ballistic Products has a supply of them. They are my source for Federal and Remington.

[wayne goerres]

Cheddit 10 ga hulls from Bp are 30.99 per 100.

[Rick Losey]

Cheddit 10 ga hulls from Bp are 30.99 per 100.

yes they are - that is why I asked if any one had experience with them.

the question remains

[Pete Lester]

Attached is an update to my Short Ten reloading spreadsheet. It has been a long time since I have come across any new to me data. Last night I found a copy of the First Edition of the Lyman Shotshell Handbook from 1969. I have added 11 new published loads from that book. All of them use discontinued/obsolete hulls. What I found interesting was this is the first time I have found recipes calling for "2 3/4" 10ga hulls. The old recipes also show us again that SR7625 and PB can be good choices for 1 1/4 ounce 10ga loads.

The newest loads are the last ones on page 3 of the spreadsheet.

[David Lien]

Pete
Today i set out 20 Remington cases to load the three HS 6 loads with the BPD wad that is in your spread sheet. I Have a cheap Crony for the velocity stats. I have new paper for the pattern board. BPD wads can yield some very good patterns.

I do enjoy your work and enthusiasm with the short ten shotgun, and the loading and shooting of the guns. I have shot these guns for a few years, and I still like to try new loads. I have shot a lot of HS 6 In Alcan brass cases, but mostly heavy loads ((3 and 1/2 IN guns))… I would like to find some data for Win 571 or HS 7 ((ball Powders)) for the short ten.

I have a Charles Daly Linder (( Krupp Barrels)) that the chambers are exactly 2 and 3/4 In. long I cut the shells to fit the chamber length. I roll crimp and load like 2 and 7/8 In. shells. I also shoot gauge mates with 12 Ga. shells. I think maybe it is a uncommon chamber size??? Thanks again for your effort, and information…
David

[charlie cleveland]

canuck use to sell the 2 3/4 inch shells...i ve seen a few boxes on auction sites but they go to high to shoot... charlie

[charlie cleveland]

i just loaded up a box of short ten s in the 19 grain red dot loads and 1 1/8 ounce of lead gona try a few shots oin doves tommorrow with the 1894 remy..let you know how the load and gun does...charlie

[David Lien]

Pete
Chris came home to watch the Indian relay races at the Idaho State fair in blackfoot Idaho. Grandson Hayden also came from college,,Soooo i had some help in bench shooting the 10 Ga. hand loads. I loaded more loads and we went shooting.

The velocity checked out good and even on the cheep Crony. About as published, I settled on the 1 5/8 Oz Load.. With two long slits in the BPD Wad. The 40 Yd. patterns were 99% at 40 yards. with a good tight core. With four long slits in the wad and ""Suponski style spreaders"" the patterns opened up to a loose modified. Loads seemed about average in the 8 LB. Super ten, and were a pleasure in the 10 LB Ithaca magnum, 10 Lb Zepher Honker and Neumann tens. I think I will like this load a lot. I feel that I can shoot a few boxes in a day and not get beat up, as is the case with heavier loads in the ten Mags. A guy has to sissies up a little when over 40.:)

I like pass shooting Crows and this will be my go to load this year. I did load a couple of duplex loads 5s and 3s, and they did look very good on paper. No ""Doctor Pepper"" can so the jury is still out. I have shot 4756 and 7625 in the past short ten loads, some times cold sensitive, and varying velocities.
Thanks again for the tip on the load.. I think the load is going to work out just fine.
David

[Mike Koneski]

I load Remington and Cheddite in the "Short 10". I have a bunch of the RST hulls, which are Cheddite. I played "Hull Whore" at a SxS shoot and scrounged every 10g I could find. Most were 2 7/8" and were calling my name!

[charlie cleveland]

the 19 grains of reddot and 1 1/8 ounce of shot is a good dove load..i shot 5 times and killed 2 doves..really not enough testing but i know enough about the load that its fine on doves...charlie

[Bill Murphy]

Charlie and Dave, my friend Claudio Opacek, the outstanding Ontario gunsmith and NAVHDA judge, gave me two boxes of the rare Canuck 2 3/4" tens after I told him I collect ten gauge shells. Strange that Charlie would mention these shells since no one I know has ever heard of them. One box is 1 1/4 ounce BB. How rare is that? Some day I will root out the other box. They are beautiful dark orange varnished paper shells, roll crimped with the load information on the top wad. They are about the nicest 10 gauge shells I own. Watch the obituaries.

[Mike Koneski]

Sorry, I thought all Morris' RST shells were made with Cheddite hulls. I was informed today the 10g are Federal made hulls. I learned something today, it was worthwhile waking up!!!!! :rotf:

[Craig Larter]

I was speaking with an employee of RST very recently about their 10ga offering. They are now using a Spanish imported powder with very similar characteristics to 7625. The powder is not available to reloaders yet. I also believe they are considering the10gas cheddite hull.

[David Lien]

Murphy
I have seen the 10 Ga. shells that you have. You are right, those shells are "prettier than girls." Me thinks you could kill a coyote with the 1 1/4 Oz. load of BBs. inside of 50 Yds.

[Mike Koneski]

I was speaking with an employee of RST very recently about their 10ga offering. They are now using a Spanish imported powder with very similar characteristics to 7625. The powder is not available to reloaders yet. I also believe they are considering the10gas cheddite hull.


I contacted RST yesterday and they said at times they use a Federal hull, but right now they are using Cheddite. Looks like my source and I were both correct. Hope that clears it all up.

[Paul Harm]

David, my 1882 Remington has the 2 3/4" chamber. Don't think there were many at that length.

[CraigThompson]

I was speaking with an employee of RST very recently about their 10ga offering. They are now using a Spanish imported powder with very similar characteristics to 7625. The powder is not available to reloaders yet. I also believe they are considering the10gas cheddite hull.

A Vintager friend of mine was chatting with Morris I think at the Vintage cup last month . Anyway he told me Morris told him that he had a couple tons of whatever this new powder is coming as we speak !

He also implied to me Morris planned to use the new powder the same as I use SR7625 , by that I mean in most all moderate loads for the 10 , 12 , 16 , 20 and possibly 28 gauge .

If what was implied to me is correct and this new powder becomes available I see myself switching over to it once my supply of SR7625 runs out .

[Frank Cronin]

What is the name of this "new" powder?

[Carvel Whaley]

I shot 100 reloaded RST (federal) shells at the southern side by side and all seemed fine. They were loaded with 31.5 gr 7625 and 1 1/8 #8 shot. 1044 wad with 1 , felt 1/2 in 16 ga wad in the shot cup and a 6 point crimp. Carvel

[William Davis]

Carvel

What kind of press did you use to get the crimp ?

William

[jim garrett]

William, I use a Mec single stage for the short 10. I use a Ballistic Products metal crimp starter and it gives the crimp folds very good definition.I have used roll crimps before but the case life is too short with roll crimps...at least for me they are. Jim

[CraigThompson]

What is the name of this "new" powder?

Dunno , everything I was told I put in the post above .

[Carvel Whaley]

William, I use a mec 600 jr with the short kit and the brass crimp starter. Works great. Carvel

[William Davis]

Components together start loading soon. Have two lots of new primed Cheddite hulls that I will trim back to 2 7/8 then Roll Crimp. Follow the advice posted, add a filler wad bottom of the shot cup. 1 1/8 of 7 1/2 Red dot or Unique from the spreadsheet. Looking for about 1150 fps

Also have a fair amount of RST empties Cheddite hulls 2 7/8 inches that were fold crimped. Folds don't roll all that well, best if they are trimmed back to fresh plastic then roll the crimp in. Case will end up about 2 1/2. That what I do with 20's and 12's cut the crimp away, fired case is a bit shorter than 2 1/2 inches depending on the hull brand. Not a problem use appropriate wad for the light shot loads I am using. Those gauges use the rolled shells for spreaders makes it simple to identify

10's components not as easy, Remington wads hold a lot more shot than the 1 1/8 I plan on loading. All advice is to add a filler. I cut one of the wads petals back about 3/16 inch, shortened it holds 1 1/8 oz nice and makes a good fit in the shorter cut back case.

Anybody cut the wad shorter to suit the case size ? I would do it for spreader loads only and to use up the fired RST's Seems OK thought I would ask first.

William

[William Davis]

Further to my short 10 post. Loaded up a dummy this afternoon. Cut the 2 7/8 inch RST empty down to 2 1/2 inches removed all trace of the crimp. Threw 19.4 of Red Dot then seated the Remington SP 10 wad on top of the powder.

Dropped a 28 G nitro card wad in the bottom of the Remington wad threw 1 1/8 oz #7 1/2. on top. Still not full to the wads top or enough to fill the 2 1/2 inch case. Added a 12 G Nitro card on top then roll crimped. Nice crimp, shake no noise and the shell finished at 2 1/4 inches

I guess my basic question is which way to go

Fill the wad with nitro cards to make up the stack. 16 G will fill better than 28's, and use a fairly thick overshot or Polywad spreader disk. Or cut the Hull and Wad even shorter. I don't want to use over about 19 of Red Dot or 1 1/8 shot. Pattern is probably the only way to tell. However thought there might be some advice out there.

PS I could go to Unique about 30 grs and up the shot charge to 1 1/4 that will probably make a higher stack in the hull. However have very little Unique and don't need 1 1/4 oz for clay targets

William

[Pete Lester]

William, filler under the shot is the way to go. 16 and 20ga work the best. Any filler over the shot will blow the pattern having the effect of a spreader. Stick with the thin over the shot cards to keep your pattern, unless of course you want a spreader shell.

If you can get your hands on some SR7625 about 30 t0 32 grains of it is a good for 1 1/8 and it will take up more room than the 19.4 gr of Red Dot.

If your shot column is just a little bit short try adding a 1/2 or a whole cheerio as needed between the shot and filler wad you are using. Cheerios are plentiful and cheap, they last longer if you don't eat them while you are loading shells :-)

[William Davis]

That's good advice. Will get some 16 G filler wads. Wish I could find 7625 but none to be had. Have Unique though will made up a dummy with30 grs see how much filler wad it needs. I have 10g thin o/s wads already.

William

[Carvel Whaley]

William, I use 16ga 1/2 in fiber wads split to the thickness needed to take up the space for a good crimp. It also cushions the shot.
Carvel

[William Davis]

Carvel that's the one I have in mind. Split the wad to suit.

William

[charlie cleveland]

seen several differant brands of powder on gunbroker...charlie

[Will Penny]

Hi i just bought a brand X [American Arms Whitmoure] it came with 25 brass Parker hulls. Does any one have any data on loads using shotcups and smokeless powder

[Paul Harm]

You'll more likely than not need to use fiber wads for a good fit.

[Preston Chaney]

Hi,
Now that Solo 1250, Sr4756, and Sr 7625 have been discontinued and Clays is unavailable, what is the best powder for 10 Ga loads in Damascus barrels?
Longshot?
Regards
Preston C

[jim garrett]

Preston, I was able to get a good supply of SR7625 just for 10 gauge so I haven't looked for an alternate powder. I will start looking to see what is available. I read that Rio is in production in Texas and will be selling their powder to reloaders so maybe they will have something that will work. Hogdon certainly needs some competition. Jim

[charlie cleveland]

19 grains of red dot or 21 grains of green dot will push a load of 1 1/8 ounce of lead in a ten ga hull real good not much recoil and will take squirls out at 45 yards real good..look on pete lesters loads for the ten ga...it is the best loading sheet for the short ten that there is....charlie

[Paul Harm]

Preston, take any 12ga load in the 8 to 9000psi range and if used in the 10 you'll have even lower pressures. I say 8 to 9 because then it'll be down to 7 to 8000psi. The chambers are a bigger diameter so there's more surface area for the pressure to exert upon so there's less pressure overall. I've used RD,GD, Promo, 700X, Nitro 100 - they all work.

[Alton Anker]

Good evening to all
Believe it or not I still have not figured out how to down load Peters spread sheet
Does any one feel like down loading the spread sheet and email it to me it would be greatly appricated thank you in advance
Alton Anker

[Rick Losey]

did you down load the Adobe reader?

if you do- it should open automagically when you double click on it

emailing it won't help if you do not have a PDF viewer like adobe

[Alton Anker]

I got it I figured it out wow Peter did a tremendous amount of research this spread sheet alone is worth my membership for a life time thank you to all of you that tried to send me down the right trail I think I am on my way when I figure out how to poast pictures I think I have some nice Parker's " in my world any way"I will poast them
Alton Anker
PS kudos to Peter Lester !!!!!!!!

[Paul Wallpe]

Since PB, 4756, and 7625 are no longer around, but most of the data in the manuals and spread sheet lists them (basically outdated), has anyone found load data for other powders?

[charlie cleveland]

blue dot powder is a good powder for heavy loads in the 10 ga also green dot and red dot are fine for light loads ..herco poder is another good powder for the 10 ga...paul harm also has some differant powders he uses maybe he ll pitch in here...the herco load is on pete lesters loading sheet....charlie

[wayne goerres]

Questions regarding the short ten list and the Hull abbreviations. Rem OS. What dose OS stand for. Rem whtlr. what dose whtlr mean and finally Rem blktr. These hull abbreviations are killing me trying to figure out witch components to use. Looking for a 1 1/2 oz load using Black rem hulls (once fired) from precision reloading and trimmed to 2 7/8". Powders available are Red dot, Blue dot, Clay dot, 700x andsr7625. I have Sp10 wads and Win 209primers and a brick of Fed 209 primers. Any good loads would be appreciated.

[Rick Losey]

i forget the OS - the white and black lettering was on the green hull

i am not sure what if any difference is within those hulls

I have been buying the new green hulls

[Frank Cronin]

I think the only difference would be the height of the base wad of the different Remington hulls when constructing a load with the components in the recipe. Other than that I would just follow recipes for Remington and make load height adjustments as you go along.

I have in the past followed Paul's advice loading 12 gauge data in the short 10. Since I had 10 gauge federal hulls and Remington SP10 wads, I just looked for data in 12 gauge with the same components and primers used in the 8-9K PSI range and loaded up some 10 ga. shells I used 800x and they were similar to the recoil to RST's.

[Austin J Hawthorne Jr.]

I prefer to roll crimp my 10's and then trim off 1/8 of an inch after firing to get an almost fresh starting point. I start off trimming 3 1/2 inch hulls to 3". (The extra 1/8 of an inch should really not raise pressures very much in a 2 7/8" chamber). I load these hulls 6 times until they are down to 2 1/4 inches, adjusting the shot cup filler accordingly, using 1 1/4 oz of #8 shot. Testing of each length of hull showed no negative effects in pattern performance or powder burn cleanliness. Of course, I do not know what effect shortening the hull has on pressures, but I keep these loads down to moderate speeds, have never had any signs of high pressure on the spent shells, and am happy to get 6 loads per hull.

[Stephane Vachon]

sorry to revive an old thread.
I looked at the spread sheet, and can't seem to find the 19gr of Red Dot load that you guys seem to be talking about.
What hulls, primers and wads are you using for the 1 1/8oz load. i'm assuming the sp10 Wad?
I have a lot of Red Dot and would like to start using the 10ga for skeet
Thanks

Spread sheet is awesome, great bit of info. i'l now be able to use my 10s for everything

[Rick Losey]

http://parkerguns.org/forums/showthread.php?t=22015

[Stephane Vachon]

thanks for the quick reply, very helpful, i just wonder why 3 cards where chosen over a filler wad?

[Rick Losey]

it depends on what is needed to fill the space for a proper crimp

[Stephane Vachon]

Perfect, looks like i've gotta pick up some filler wads, i normally use cheerios for my 7/8oz 12ga loads, i think i would need way to many to fill in that kind of space.

[Rick Losey]

:rotf:

i have a couple 12 ga loads i use Cheerios in to fill to

my 10ga loads need a little more if I go light on the shot- either Circle Fly cards/wads, or in one - old Alcan 16ga blue felt wads - although - running short on them finally

[Stephane Vachon]

Mmmmmmm, the smell of hunny nut cheerios and RedDot in the morning

[Pete Lester]

it depends on what is needed to fill the space for a proper crimp

.......and what you have on hand. In my experience one cheerio under the shot works great, two or more cheerios and the chance of a squib load goes up.

[Milt Fitterman]

Has anyone tried sticking a 12g. plastic wad into the SP10 prior to loading shot to take up room? Or maybe cutting down the wad instead of using the fiber fillers?

[Rick Losey]

Has anyone tried sticking a 12g. plastic wad into the SP10 prior to loading shot to take up room? Or maybe cutting down the wad instead of using the fiber fillers?

Sounds like a lot of work when I can just put a cheap fiber wad in there

Not sure what it would do to pressure

[William Davis]

Fibers let you cut the wad to suit stack height needed. Shorter for 1 1/4 longer for 1 1/8. No doubt stacked cards do the same thing. My Cheerio experience is same as mentioned one OK, more they want to crush on crimping.

19 Red Dot 1 1/8 oz is a great target load. Shot Clays last week with some O/U shooters I don’t know well. Asked if they objected to my Parker Hammer 10, had a O/U in the car if they were concerned. Course owner wanted to see me shoot 4 before he approved. Dusted 4 easy outgoing targets two close two long & got the OK

End of the round they all wanted to try the 10. All said it had less recoil than there 12s. May recruit some new Parker guys.

William

[Stephane Vachon]

So, iv'e been using 19gr of Promo, Sp10wad, 16ga 1/2" fibre filler wad, with 1 1/8oz #8 with a paper over shot card in a federal hull.
They seem to be working very well for me, went 50 straight the last time i took the 10 out.
problem is getting SP10 wads at a good price in canada.

[Patrick Barrett]

Charlie: You and I have the 1894 Remington. I have the 2 5/8 chambers. I am still looking for hulls,primers I can use and the proper wad, :I have red dot powder, I checked the web sites they are sold out of 10 ga hulls. Any advise would be appreciated. I ordered some 10 ga RST 2 5/8 " loaded shells.

[Paul Harm]

I have a 1882 Remington 10ga, but believe the chambers are 2 3/4 after carful measurement. Either way, the shells are cut to what ever length you want. JMHO, but any mild primer will work - Rem, Win, Cheddite, or CCI. The 10ga wads from BPI are cheaper than the Remington wads and work fine. The soft 16ga 1/2" cushion wads work best for taking up space. They can be cut to whatever height you want for a good crimp. Patrick, I have a extra 50 Win 10ga once fired hulls you can have for let's say 7/8$ plus shipping. Let me know at bladesmith46@hotmail.com. Title the message " 10ga ".

[Daniel Carter]

Patrick that is a most generous offer from Paul. Precision has Remington 10 in stock but you will have to shorten them, they are 42.00 per 100.

[Patrick Barrett]

Great Ill get on that asap and yes, I agree most generous indeed. I know that I have found the right place here. I am very grateful to paul.

thank you,
Pat

[Patrick Barrett]

I see the ad its for the 10 ga but I am not familiar with the type of base wad included?
How does that effect the typical wads used SP-10 ? or a light red dot load. I realize Id have to trim this hull to 2 5/8 length.

.250 plastic base wad
thank you
Pat

[Daniel Carter]

Pat I load the red dot load in the Remington hull, sp10 wad 1/2 in. hard waxed filler and it crimps well. A great way to trim them is a dowel with an exacto blade set at a slight angle. The dowel bottoms out in the hull and you cut a slot at an angle to hold the blade at the length you want 2 5/8 or 2 7/8. Paul Harm shortens his when the crimps get ragged and gets a few more out of them. Thanks for the idea Paul.

[Ronald Scott]

19 grs of Red Dot and 1 1/8 oz of shot is a nice mild target load but what if you want a real 10 gauge load? like 1 1/2 or 1 5/8 oz of shot for ducks and geese at longer ranges -- anyone have a smokeless load they like? I'm currently loading brass hulls with black powder and getting tired of the cleaning process.

[Patrick Barrett]

Woodcock Survey:

I would like to make a tool like you describe. That would do the trick. Is it possible to send a picture? How does the blade remain in the tool and how is it turned....Im trying to picture how it cuts..to the proper length..
thank you
pat

[Daniel Carter]

I will try to post a photo later , but I am challenged in that area. Start with a 3/4 in. dowel , drill 3-4 small holes at about a 15 degree angle and drive an exacto blade into it at approx 2-1/2 in. up from the base adjust with spacers and thumb tacks in butt if needed. There is a thread here some where explaining it. My first one was made by Scott Kitteredge and I have made them for 20 and 410. I will look for that thread and maybe Scott or Pete Lester will have some information.

[Daniel Carter]

Pat go to youtube and ask for loading the short 10, I believe it is by Pete Lester. On the bench you will see the tool I describe. Hope this helps.

[Daniel Carter]

The blade is driven into the dowel and held by friction,as you insert the tool turn it as it reaches the mouth of the shell and as it begins to cut push down and continue to turn. It is so simple and easy it defies description. The blade is narrow and at angled to a point it is a number 11. 3 or 4 small holes drilled into dowel and the blade is driven in with a hammer, gently to a depth about half way through the dowel.

[Patrick Barrett]

Hmmmm a few questions What are the small holes supposed to do.....?Does it start a location on the dowel where the blade is supposed to go?. I guess Im not clear on how you gently drive the blade in with a hammer and not damage the blade....you see? is it a #11 exacto blade?

[Daniel Carter]

Yes it is a #11 Exacto blade I used. The holes are a starter for the blade. Please go to the first post on this thread and watch the video Pete Lester made and you will see him use and explain it. I was mistaken in saying 3/4 dowel , it is 5/8. Pete will also explain how to make an adjuster for different makes of hulls.

[Paul Harm]

Get a dowel that fits snug and I put a single edge razor blade in at about a 15 degree angle. The blade needs to be tapped in with a hammer. First a thin knife blade is tapped in for a little bit to get the razor started. I also drill a hole in the end and install a machine screw, say a 8-32. This can be screwed in or out to fine tune the cut. If your shell is 3.5 and you want 2 5/8, put the dowel in the shell, with a pencil make a mark on the dowel, pull it out and subtract 7/8" and make another mark. This is where the blade sits about 15 degrees from perpendicular. I put the shell in my left hand and the dowel, with my thumb on the razor, in my right hand. I've found by slightly bending the top part of the razor [ the safe side ] I can make the razor feed in for a slow cut or a fast one. You may ruin a shell or two getting the feel for everything. A cheap table model wood cutting band saw from harbor Freight would work good, be quicker, and you could forget about playing around with dowels and blades.
Ron, I never had any luck with nitro powders in the Magtechs. I believe it's because of the lack of a crimp. My Accurate gunpowder handbook has a article about the importance of a good crimp and how it effects pressures. Before I sold 300 Magtechs I tried 28grs of PB - my normal load was around 18 to 20grs. I was still getting bloopers. I believe Charlie has had some success with them. God luck to all. Paul

[Paul Harm]

Ron, I've never had any luck with nitro powders in the Magtechs. My Accurate powder reloading booklet has an article about the importance of crimps and how they effect pressure. There isn't much resistance by gluing OS cards in compared to a fold or roll crimp. I sold 300 Magtechs after trying to get good loads with smokeless. I believe Charlie has had some success with them. Let us know if you find a way to use them with nitro powders.

[Ronald Scott]

Ron, I've never had any luck with nitro powders in the Magtechs. My Accurate powder reloading booklet has an article about the importance of crimps and how they effect pressure. There isn't much resistance by gluing OS cards in compared to a fold or roll crimp. I sold 300 Magtechs after trying to get good loads with smokeless. I believe Charlie has had some success with them. Let us know if you find a way to use them with nitro powders.

Thanks for the help, Paul. What year/issue is you accurate arms reloading booklet? I'd like to read the article. Your explanation regarding crimp pressure makes sense and might explain my results: I loaded and fired 10 new brass hulls (ordered 50 from Track of the Wolf -- "The head is engraved Parker Brothers Meriden, Conn. - 10 gauge A markings for a historic appearance.") with 34 grains of Longshot, and 1 5/8 oz #7 1/2 chill. This load is listed on the Short Ten Reloading Spreadsheet showing only 5700 psi. Of the 10 that I shot 3 cracked.

I don't believe the fault is the hull as I have used these same brass hulls for repeated reloadings and firings of pretty heavy loads of black powder and have never cracked a hull.

The shots that I fired all felt and sounded normal -- and actually seemed mild compared to the black powder loads. You would think that the fact that "there isn't much resistance by gluing OS cards in compared to a fold or roll crimp" that the pressure would be even lower than 5700 psi. So it's a mystery to me why the hulls cracked -- perhaps without sufficient resistance the pressure curve moved higher up the case? Regardless of the cause I will not be wasting any more hulls at $7.50 per using them with that load again. It would be interesting to know if anyone else has had a similar experience.

At this point I think I will save the brass hulls for vintage shoots and black powder loads (which are a lot of fun to shoot) and buy a few boxes of RSTs for hunting.

Maybe at some point I'll experiment with trying to increase the resistance of the over shot wad by using a thicker card more solidly glued in. But's hard to believe a crimped plastic hull offers much resistance in comparison to the force required to push the entire payload from a dead stop to 1100 fps... Maybe the article you mentioned has an explanation?

Thanks again -- I'll share anything else I learn,

Ron

[Paul Harm]

Man, that's a shame, those cost a little bit. Those are made by Rockey Mountain and are turned from a solid piece of brass, so they're thicker than the Magtecks. They have a smaller internal volume, so that may contribute to you being able to use smokeless powders. Maybe the end was too small a diameter and allowed the shell to expand too much and crack. That would just be my guess. I found a thicker OS card gave me a hole in the pattern. Other guys had more luck. That was a 2005 Accurate reloaders guide. Here's a brief synopsis of the article:
The fundamental difference between a shotshell cartridge and a center fire rifle cartridge is that the efficiency of the shotshell is 100% dependent on the round itself. All the "resistive forces" must be generated within the confines of the round itself, no assistance is provided by the gun [the bullet meeting the rifling ]. The maximum peak pressure is reached long before the base of the shot/wad assembly has left the case. This means the efficiency re ignition and subsequent increase in pressure, is totally controlled by the integral configuration and assembly of the round itself. These constitute the main inertial mass [ shot mass ], the initial internal volume [ wad design ], the collapsing of the wad, plus the displacing of the internal assembly and the unfolding of the crimp. Crimping is certainly is one of the most importantly aspects of the shotshell reloading process. The influence of the crimp on ballistics is often ignored and assumed to be of lesser importance that primers and wad make/design. The fact is that the effect of the crimp-strength can totally overshadow the influence of other components and parameters. this is controlled by the following:

crimp depth

condition of the case

wad

wad tension

It is always wise to use a strong a crimp as possible.
Back to me - usually a roll crimp has lower pressures and I would think a card just glued in wouldn't have hardly any resistive forces so pressures would be even lower - too low. Black powder is a different animal so we can do things with it that doesn't work so well with nitro powders. The military has had all brass shells but they're roll crimped. I don't think they are worried about reloading them.

[Ronald Scott]

Maybe the end was too small a diameter and allowed the shell to expand too much and crack.

Thank you for taking the time to retype all that info -- I appreciate it.

Regarding your theory about the end being too small. I don't think so because, 1) the black powder loads didn't crack the hull & 2) the overshot wad in both cases fit perfectly. But wow that I think about it, I used a different lot of brass hulls for the smokeless loads. Maybe they are harder than the first ones -- I could try annealing them. It would be worth testing because the load otherwise worked great. I'll keep you posted.

[William Davis]

Brass hulls can have very inconsistent quality. Steels you can specify types and be fairly sure of its quality. Brass rod s often imported with very poor quality. Few years ago PGCA member posted he was having trouble chambering brass hulls that had worked fine previously.

He sent a few samples to to measure. Found they were oblong and would not chamber In my Parker 10 Hammer either. Put them in the lathe and turned them true, found cracks as soon as I took a few thou off. Had 20 RMC turned 32/40 cases from when they first started in business. Few developed cracks, RMC replaced them. I shoot a fair amount of 32/40 gave up on the turned. Drawn brass makes a much better case. 32/40 I have choices. 10 G not as much to chose from

Drawn case Anealing does make a big difference and worth trying.

William

[Jay.R.Seamans]

With the price of Red Dot and supply issue.What powders are being substituted?

[James Doolittle]

I picked up some 10 gauge 2 5/8" RTS shells yesterday for an old double I had bought. They are Cheddite hulls. Does anyone have any good data to load these with 1 1/8 oz or 1 1/4 oz of lead shot? The only wads I could find are the BP10 wads.

[Mike Koneski]

You sure those aren't 2 7/8" RST hulls (Cheddite)? You can use the BP 10g wads.

[Craig Larter]

RST sells 2 5/8" 10ga shells.

[Mike Koneski]

RST sells 2 5/8" 10ga shells.

I have never seen their 10g in 2 5/8. Well I’ll be dipped in guano and rolled in peanut butter!

[CraigThompson]

I have never seen their 10g in 2 5/8. Well I’ll be dipped in guano and rolled in peanut butter!

My friend that’s into Remington SxS’s had several flats of RST 10 gauge 2 5/8” . I tried reloading a few of his empties but they left the factory roll crimped and it was more of a pain in the butt than I wanted to deal with .

[Mike Koneski]

A buddy has some 10g RST empties he asked me about. Since I never knew they made 2 5/8” loads I told him I didn’t want them. If he still has them I mentioned to him to post them for sale here.

[Steven Groh]

Does the MEC 600 Jr. do an adequate job of resizing a 10 guage?
At very low pressures does the brass even deform?

[Craig Larter]

The 600jr will resize the brass properly but I found the hulls are difficult to remove from the die. I resize my 10ga hulls on a MEC Super Sizer.

[Pete Lester]

Does the MEC 600 Jr. do an adequate job of resizing a 10 guage?
At very low pressures does the brass even deform?

A single stage MEC with the ring resizer will usually do the job of resizing 10 ga hulls without issue. It is easier to resize Federal hulls as they are made of brass whereas others are made of steel. I have a Lefever G grade 10 which is a great gun but it has tighter chambers than my other 10's and would be hard or impossible to close with some reloads. I bought a 10ga collet for my MEC Supersizer and that solved the problem with that gun.

Keep in mind the resizing ring on a MEC single stage is a wear item and every now and then it will need to be replaced. If you bought a used reloader you might want to change it.

[CraigThompson]

Does the MEC 600 Jr. do an adequate job of resizing a 10 guage?
At very low pressures does the brass even deform?

I had a 600 JR 10 I bought new and it worked fine . But later I decided I wanted a Sizemaster with the collet resizer and that’s what I use now . I had a PW 375 many years ago set up for 10 gauge 3 1/2” that worked very nicely . But what I’d really like but don’t really need is a PW LS-1000 set up for 10 gauge 2 7/8” .