Are opinion changing on restoring a shotgun?

[Ray Masciarella]

I used to be one of those old school guys that said a rusty old shotgun is always better than a restored shotgun, but views views are evolving after seeing some correctly restored shotguns. By correcting restored I personally mean a gun that has been faithfully bought back to the way it left the factory in every aspect.

What are the current opinions on the following question: If you have a Parker with no factory finish on the frame or wood (the barrels usually have at least some) and its overall condition is worn and need of some TLC, do you object to correctly restoring it? If so, why? If not, why?

[greg conomos]

I won't wade into that argument, but I'll say this much - there are a lot more guns out there that have had work done on them than people like to acknowledge.

[Mills Morrison]

My personal philosophy with my guns is to (1) leave guns with honest wear alone (2) repair and/or restore guns that have issues which affect their cosmetic and/or functional value. Those are subjective determinations for me to make on my own guns. How far to go (repair parts or full restoration) is also subjective. Once the decision to repair or restore is made, it should be done right and a gunsmith that specializes in the gun to be restored should be used.

We all like original guns, but as the first poster said, most are not all original. Also, there are some incredible gunsmiths out there that do great work which has value in and of itself. The fact a gun was restored by Del Grego, Bachelder or Oscar Gaddy would get my attention if I was considering a purchase. You need only surf this forum to see some incredible work.

[Eric Grims]

I bought one 20 gauge parker that was fully restored and I believe very well done. I believe it's collector value is less than the price I paid. A major consideration for me was that I felt this gun was far more pleasing, and an equal or better deal than what was available in modern guns in the same price range. I wouldn't be hesitant to do it again if the fit, gauge, dimensions etc were what I was looking for in a SxS. Just my opinion.

[Craig Parker]

I think it's a gun by gun thought process that goes into it, family gun.. Maybe. .For your enjoyment..maybe... But not for profit. A guns history has a lot to do with it, maybe one or more restored for yourself that really show the class that it brings to the gun, as said there are some great looking restored guns on here and with the knowledge on here one not going to slide by. We have a few great restorers on here with some very nice looking work.I have not had one done but plan too, couple of 0 and 1 grade guns, I don't care if I have 3 grand into it.I'll be carrying and shooting it just the same but it's sure going to look good, same as the one that's seen a life of field use having that boat bump and/or ding that that guy put in it 90 years ago. A gun that I will have done will be researched fully before any thing is done to it. With all the resources we have it should not be that hard.

I don't believe some or most guns need it and stand on they're own, which needs be original. But one I will have had done I will tell the less knowing public that it has been restored, as some have done. I brought one restored gun and does it draw looks in the field, I tell them that it's been restored and when it was born then just step back and let them talk.

Craig

[wayne goerres]

I have noticed that in other countrys like englind and australia restored guns seem to be prefurred to well used guns. A lot of sights advertise all there guns as being refinished and reprofed before sale. I read on nitro express that the aussi's don't put near as much stock as far as resale in wether a gun has had work done on it or not. This may be because these guns are wearing out and if we want to use them then we are going to have to fix them. Just my opionion.

[King Brown]

Profit shouldn't enter into it. It's pimping. Older guns with a look of care and love are as desirable as women of a certain age. No one neglects a companion worn by honourable living to say she or he is original. Cosmetics are integral to arm candy of any age. The difference between collectors and Parker enthusiasts is collectors are serial lovers.

[Bruce Day]

Ray, there is a huge difference between quality of so-called restorations. I really think that to fully deal with your question, you should go to several Parker meetings, talk candidly and non-publicly to people and inspect for yourself a lot of Parkers. I think it will be exceedingly difficult to learn about these matters without hands on and face to face discussions. You see a number of assertions on this forum that experienced Parker people would take issue with in private.

From my view, some restorations are spot on, but most are not. The main problems are in case colors and stock work. I have attempted to provide forum viewers with examples of original or mostly original Parkers and a person can compare those to some of the restoration work that is seen.

[Daryl Corona]

Well said Bruce and King. I agree Bruce, the case coloring done today will never match original Parker coloring, although some of it is done by some very talented people. I have a late P grade with original case, wood and bluing. The gun looks as if it had been placed in a time capsule. When I handle a refinished Parker it feels to me as if the soul of the gun has been removed. That's just how I feel, as I'm not a true "collector", I feel as though I'm just taking care of these guns for a while.Their originality is what I love about them.

[Rich Anderson]

I have a GH 20 with 30 inch damascuss barrels which in itself is a rareity. Doug Turnbull completely restored this gun to include recutting the engraveing. This was all done befor I bought the gun but I considered it in my offer which was substantilly less than the asking price but we came to terms and its a very nice gun. i see no harm is cleaning up an oil soaked stock, refinishing it and recutting worn checkering or haveing the damascuss barrels redone. Most of these guns are 100+ years old and a little TLC IMHO doesn't hurt them.

[Ray Masciarella]

I actually agree with almost everyone has said. It probably should be a descision that is made on a gun by gun basis. For me, it is not an emotional thing. If a gun is totally worn out, I'd have no problem restroing it if I wanted to, although I can appreciate an old worn out gun too. it is a personal descision.

I agree with Bruce that most restorations, by some well known gunsmiths, do not match the many great origianl guns he has shown us here.

I disagree that colors cannot be properly reproduced. If Parker did it then it can be done now. And some gunsmiths are getting it right. I think the reason even the right colors on a restored gun don't look like they do on a 100 year old 98% gun is that what cannot be reproduced is a 100 years of aging. Those old guns just have a mellow look. They didn't look like that when new. It took a 100 years to look like that.

I haven't seen as many restored guns as others. I haven't seen one perfectly restored. Seems like there are always little things that are overlooked.

In the final analysis for me, there is no problem perfectly restoring an old worn out gun and bring it back to life. While it may have some charm from being carried through the woods for 100 years, bringing it back to life has value (and I don't mean money). On the other hand, old worn out guns are cool too. Do whatever hits your hot button.

[Rich Anderson]

Although not a "total restoration" here's an example of a little TLC on a GHE damascuss 20ga. Clean up 100 years of dirt,grime and recut the checkering and a nice piece of walnut was revealed. IMHO no harm done.

[Rich Anderson]

Here's one that was "restored" several years ago. The seller thought the colors are Creekside which would be Doug Turnbull's father. The damascuss bbls and the stock has been refinished as well. Its a GH 16 O frame. I must ask where's the harm?

[Ray Masciarella]

Rich, I see no harm, and wow, what a great result!

Some have commented on the fact that sportman's in other countries routinely restore guns. and it is an accepted practice in those places. It is interesting how collectors here have opposed this view for so long. IMHO, there are some guns that should never be restored. For example, a gun that is known to have been used during the War Between the States, the great western times, etc. On the other hand, a Parker in any grade that was purchased and used in the normal course of sporting activities and is all worn out can be restored if that is what the owner thinks is best for him.

Some of us have a romantic view. All the dings and dangs represent the history of the gun, even if the history is not distinquished in any particular way. Some on the other hand, may see value to them in taking the old gal and restoring her to her youth. Not because they think she is going to look like a 100 year band new gun, but becasue they want her to look brand new (understanding a gun is only new once). I have to think she would be admired. After all, where does one go buy that gun new today? No repo is even close (which is an entirely other subject, but I always wondered why anyone would go through all the effort of producing a repo that is not faithful to the original. Makes absolutely no sense to me).

My problem is that I'm both romantic and practical but I have moved away from the never restore category.

[Rich Anderson]

I forgot to add the pics:whistle:

[Mark Ouellette]

Restoration is the owner’s choice. Heck, the owner of the Invisibles could have them turned into lamps if they chose. I’d hope that they would not but that is what ownership is about, the owner may do whatever is legal to their property.

My opinion is that vintage guns with medium to high condition do not need restoration. Any work may in fact lower the value of such guns. Having faded Damascus patterns redone correctly probably enhances the value of most guns.

Low condition higher-grade guns are prime targets for accurate restorations. Accurate means for the manufacturer and period/year the gun was made. The end result should make experienced collectors take a close look to ascertain if the gun’s condition is original or restored.

The following are examples of full and accurate restorations by Brad Bachelder.
1. Parker B Grade Lifter Action in somewhat below medium condition with barrels redone in gray on grey and total restoration.
2. "Hard hunted" Super Fox. The wood was so oil soaked that one could indent the stock head with their thumb. Yes, Bachelder restored the original wood!
3. LC Smith 10 gauge Grade 2. Notice the pitted barrel lug in the before photo.

[Russ Jackson]

As with most things ,I always seem to have an opinion ,Generally ,I try to keep most to myself . This can be a real can of worms ,My personal opinion , is this very simply , If I choose to purchase a gun which has never been refinished ,apparently there was something about the gun ,I already liked and usually just give her a little clean up and use it the way I bought it ,now if this gun has been beaten up a bit and I can have bumps taken out of the wood ,checking recut or cleaned up and some new finish on the stocks to make it a bit nicer ,then I will go ahead and have it done as long as it is by a reputable smith that makes his best attempt to finish in an original style ,same with Damascus barrels ,I really like the patterns in the Twist and Dam. barrels and will not hesitate to have at least the barrels redone by a good Damascus Barrel Man! As for a total restoration ,even though ,I have had a few done ,and done by some of the top names in the business ,I never seem to be as happy with the gun as I would have been if the job had never been done even though it looks nice ,they are just not the same to me ! The one gun ,I owned was a 30" DHE 28 Ga. ,this gun had been refinished in the past and very poorly ,I purchased this gun knowing " FOOL " well ,I could never live with it the way it was but a 30" DHE 28 " WOW " how do you pass it up with a decent price tag on it , I had the gun completely refinished by one of the top refinishers in todays market and it was absolutely Gorgeous ,I carried it a bit and really never warmed up to it and eventually sold the gun ,lessons learned , I think guns with their Patina ,and Age are always going to be more desirable than a refinished gun and will always have a better following from true enthusiasts than a refinished gun which someone has attempted to bring back to it's former Glory ! Again ,just my two cents !

[Ray Masciarella]

Mark, I could not have said it better and I totally share your view. Restoring that Parker is a close call IMHO, but the Fox and Smith are clearly better for their restorations, again IMHO. With that said, I think the value of the Parker, in more ways than one, was enhanced with the restoration.

Russ, I see your point of view also. As Mark stated, it is a personal choice the owner has to be happy with. At first, I didn't understand your statement that you had no problem doing a partial refinish but don't like a total restoration. My first thought was: what's the difference? But after tought, I think there can be a difference. The only problem is that for the purist, once a gun is messed with it is always messed with. There is no going back. So for them partially vs totally restored is still a messed with gun.

[Mark Ouellette]

This is a partial restoration in which the "unwritten history" of this 32" EH 10 gauge was preserved.

Jerry Andrews repaired the bolt through the stock.

Brad Bachelder did a partial restoration on only the metal parts of the gun.

Oh, this Parker gets hunted! It has been with me many days in the layout boat!

[Brad Bachelder]

Restoration is a term used too loosely in this industry. Often refinished guns are represented as "Restored". A fresh coat of poly and a blue job do not constitute a Restoration. A total Restoration is basicaly a complete remanufacture with the most strict diciplines applied in techniques and process. There are no shortcuts or quick fixes. Every American manufactured Double has its own set of signature nuances. Finishing marks, colors, patina, dimensions and function parimeters. To apply Fox techniques to a Parker will yield an incorrect Restoration. A refinished model 12 Is just that, a good field Gun, A restored model 12 is a great field Gun, but also a thing of beauty.
In ten years a properly Restored Double will look just like its untouched counterpart.
As for value consider what a properly restored Corvette will fetch at auction.
We don't own our Guns, we are temporary stewards at best. We love our Doubles because they represent a very important part of the history of American Craftsmanship.
Pristine to good original condition Guns should be left untouched. Distressed and poorly maintained Guns can be brought back if done properly.
As stewards we can take great pride in saving these beautiful machines for our enjoyment as well as future generations.

Brad

[Ray Masciarella]

As a former Bloomington Gold and NCRS judge, I can speak to the point made by Brad regarding Corvettes. A Vette restored to typical factory production condition is always worth more, a lot more, than a worn out unrestored example; except in very, very limited circumstances. Interestingly, "survivors", as they are called in the Vette world, have only been recognized in the last 10 years or so. Probably because so many Vettes had been restored there were not many unrestored cars left! For an unrestored Vette to be worth as much as a restored Vette it would have to be 90% original and have near perfect original paint. Very difficult to find in a 40-50 year old auto.

[Craig Larter]

Some like restored guns some don't---there is room for both in our hobby. The restorers will never convince the leave it original crowd to like restored guns and vise versa. So if you want to properly restore a gun---have at it and have fun----just realize that not everyone will be impressed or like the finished product regardless of the quality of the craftsmanship.

[allen newell]

The Mona Lisa, Statue of Liberty, Washington Memorial, Mount Rushmore and many others have all had restoration work done. Their Value.....PRICELESS. (when done by competent restoration artists).....

[Rich Anderson]

[QUOTE=Mark Ouellette;114642, the owner of the Invisibles could have them turned into lamps if they chose.]

I have NEVER seen an Invisible Parker, IF they made lamp shades would you only see the shade???:biglaugh::biglaugh::biglaugh::biglaugh::b iglaugh::biglaugh:
Sorry Mark I couldn't resist your typo:duck:

[paul stafford jr]

I don't think I would ever restore a original gun in high condition. but most of the beaters I see these days are begging for it, theres no shame in saving a old gun. and besides its fun.

[Harryreed]

This is one of the most interesting threads I have read on the forum since I became a PGCS member. I think a Parker is one of the best examples of American manufacturing craftsmenship from the late 1800's and early 1900's. A $150 1890 C grade Parker compares very favorably when layed next to far more expensive European doubles. I think, when the restoration is done using the original wood and metal on the gun, no historical significance is lost!!! If the specimen restored was in such a rough condition that wood and metal components need replacement, that is fine too. Just be ethical if you are doing it for monetary purposes and disclose what has been done and why. IMHO.

[Dean Romig]

I have a GH 20 with 30 inch damascuss barrels which in itself is a rareity. Doug Turnbull completely restored this gun to include recutting the engraveing. This was all done befor I bought the gun but I considered it in my offer which was substantilly less than the asking price but we came to terms and its a very nice gun. i see no harm is cleaning up an oil soaked stock, refinishing it and recutting worn checkering or haveing the damascuss barrels redone. Most of these guns are 100+ years old and a little TLC IMHO doesn't hurt them.



Rich, that is probably the most perfectly refinished Parker I have ever handled. It almost had me fooled completely.

[lee r moege]

Guys they don't make them anymore! I have a Parker lifter 10 gage with some issues but mechanically it's all there. It's an 1878 with the keyed forend and beautiful fiddle back wood. The back end is about 70% and I plan to have Kirk Merrington work the barrels over only to the point of making it shootable. It is not going to ever be an as new restoration only enough to bring it back to 100 year plus old character marked rarity. Lee.:bigbye:

[Rich Anderson]

Guys they don't make them anymore!Lee.:bigbye:

Thats exactly why a little TLC will keep them around and serviceable for another 100 years.

[Ken Hill]

Unfortunately, I agree with everything that's been said. Let me change or ask a slightly different question. Assuming the restoration was done correctly (and this is a big open assumption), if you were to purchase the gun, how would you value the gun?

For example, is the restored gun 50% of a similar gun (grade, barrel length, stock, etc) in 90% condition?

Thanks
Ken

[Rich Anderson]

Ken I think each gun would have to be valued on it's own merits or the lack thereof. Small bores bring more regardless. Look at the GH 16 O frame I posted pictures of, I don't think that gun lost anything value wise because it was restored and probably it's value increased.

[Harryreed]

Ken, great question. I think when a restoration is done because the owner wants his Parker to reflect the fine workmanship and beauty of the factory Parker, he will get great enjoyment owning the restored Parker. When a restoration is done for the purpose of enhancing value, I am very doutful it can be done for much profit. A proper restoration by a Parker capable gunsmith is expensive. Usually the cost of the re-finished Parker when combined with acquisition costs will not yield a greater margin on the gun then if it is sold in it's original condition. You may sell it for more $$$ but you have more $$$ in it. I think this also holds true for old Winchesters and Sharps. Most who do it, do it, because they love the beauty of the original workmanship and enjoy owning a speciman that reflects that same workmanship.

[Gary Carmichael Sr]

Well, I just have to add my 2 cents, I believe that a gun speaks for itself, In that a rare gun in a low grade should be brought back to as close to original finish and fit as can be done, also any high grade guns that have had less TLC than they should have should be brought back to original fit and finish, TheMona Lisa has been cleaned! Parker made in my estimation the best side by side in this country, and some with beautiful engraving I think they are better enjoyed by the owner or collector if they are faithfully restored, You are going to get what a person is willing to pay and no more when time comes to sell, but look at the enjoyment it brings to you and all that see it Gary

[Bill Murphy]

I have had work done on more than a few of my Parkers. They are some great guns and would be loved by anyone who bought one. I have a great 28 gauge, blued all over and restocked. Some day that gun may go in the hopper for refinishing.

[Ray Masciarella]

While those who have responded represents a very small number of the Parker collector community, it appears the weight of responses supports both partial and total restoration. (Interestingly, many of our most well-known members have not weighed in for whatever reason). I guess that is in keeping with the trend.

Many have claimed restorations may not have a positive effect on the value of a gun. I think that is probably true for partial restorations. I'm not sure about total restorations. If total restorations don't ultiminately have a positive effect on price, we may not see a great number of worn out gun being restored.

[edgarspencer]

The end motive behind a gun owners decision to restore a gun has a lot to do with whether he plans to keep it, knowing he would enjoy it more because it was more pleasing to his own eye, as opposed to doing it to make it more desirable to potential buyers.
Without doubt, we've all seen 'restorations' done poorly. These become examples for those that would argue against such work. Top shelf work almost never comes without a substantial investment, and those few who are capable of this work are always busy; justifiably so.
Those who haven't had the opportunity to look at, and really study high condition original guns may be satisfied with a greater number of guns done by those who call themselves qualified. Likewise, when an owner really knows the details of color, fit and finish that left Parker Brothers, in my opinion, does the gun proud.
Guns which have been well cared for, and simply exhibit the evidence of loving use, may best be left alone, but a gun that has suffered from poor care, with deep scratches in the wood, dings in the tubes or pitting would likely give the owner greater pleasure with a good freshening at the minimum, to total restoration at the maximum. After all, doesn't the word 'Restoration' really imply bringing something back to it's original condition? When it's all done, and doesn't look like it did when it left Meriden, is it restored, or just reworked?
In short, I believe properly restored guns have real value. I don't think upgraded guns ever achieve that level of value and broad desirability.

[John Campbell]

Mr. Spencer makes a very good case on all sides.

But whether it is a Parker or a Purdey, I always try to first ask myself "does this gun need any work to be a prideful part of shooting once again?"

If I can't answer "yes" immediately, I leave it alone.

If the answer is yes, I then ask myself "how little will it take to achieve that status?"

And frankly, the answer to that is almost never a total restoration -- which in my view effectively obliterates the gun's value as an artifact of shooting history.

That's just my two cents... and some change.

[Paul Harm]

I believe it's up to the owner what he does or doesn't do to the gun. I have two Remingtons Brad has restored because they were high grade guns that deserved it. Most my guns [ field grade Parkers ] I have refinished the stocks and have had Brad redo the damascus barrels. They are what most would call " beaters ". I'll never get the money back out of them, but I enjoy shooting them and showing my friends how beautiful damascus barrels look. Those guys shooting O/U's look in amazement at my old SxS's with redone barrels, some not believing they can still be shot, and sometimes if I'm lucky, shot well.

[dwight pugh]

since we're throwing 2 cents around...here's mine. it depends on the gun & the guy. doing it for yourself or return. answer that & then decide. in my case , I have a BH.. original...used but cared for. I wouldn't think of touching it. I have a CH used & well worn. checkering almost gone in the grip area, Bernard barrels that you can't see the pattern on very well. it's going in for a total restoration by the best I can find. not for value but to bring this piece of history back to where it belongs so that when it's done...it will be around for the next 120 years to be appreciated by whomever the caretaker is at that time.

just my opinion.

ddp

[Bill Murphy]

I have three total restorations which didn't hurt the guns much. They are all VH grade guns. One 32" VH 12 came restored from gunbroker at a good price and was a wonderful job. One, a well worn VH 12 with no redeeming qualities, was done by at least a dozen workmen over a period of more than 30 years and is a story to tell. Doug Turnbull was the last stop and the gun came out great. It came from a wonderful couple who started me in collecting Parker paper, and the gun's faults were not marks of character. The third was not a gun that should have been restored, but it was, and I love it anyhow.

[Ray Masciarella]

Bill, with regards to the gun you said should not have been restored, can you tell us why you feel that way? What attributes did the gun have warranting no restoration? Thx, Ray

[Frank Cronin]

My 2 cents is when you decide to restore a gun and after you waited a year or more to get it back -- is to shoot the snot out of it. A lot of times the gun comes back and it's "too pretty" to take to the field and it gets put away un-used in the safe and is treated as eye candy...

I shoot all my restored guns and I have the normal wear from handling and marks in the stock from me using them to pass down to the next.

[dwight pugh]

Well said Frank....and I second that !!

ddp

[Rich Anderson]

If your not going to use it then why restore it is my feelings. That use puts back some well earned patina and takes the edge off the "newness".

[edgarspencer]

Poor woman went in for a 'Butt Lift'.

[wayne goerres]

Edger if I were you I would get out of town and go hunting.

[Daryl Corona]

Thanks Edgar, I can't stop laughing every time I bring it back on my screen. It's like a horrible accident on the highway, you just have to look.

[Rich Anderson]

Edgar you can't buy RST shells at Wallmart:nono: so you can stop going there.

[Pete Lester]

So many good points here, but none more so than evaluating each individual gun on it's own merits. A good rule of thumb might be restore if it adds value (but dont expect the increased value to be equal to the cost of the restoration and gun itself). Do not restore a gun if it will decrease the value.

I don't see much harm in bringing a tired and or broken G, P, V or even Trojan back to life and use.

I find the process of bringing back a tired gun that I enjoy shooting is fun, I am like a kid at Christmas waiting for a set of barrels to come back from refinishing or a stock rechecked or screws fixed. There is satisfaction for me in the process and enjoyment to follow. Not every dollar spent on a good shotgun I like has to bring a $ plus back to have fun, not for me anyway.

[Rich Anderson]

I am like a kid at Christmas waiting for a set of barrels to come back from refinishing

I'm right there with you Pete. I just sent two sets of barrels to Dale Edmonds for refinishing. One set is for a grade 2 16ga hammergun and when i get these back they will determine if I have the stock refinished as well, the other set are 32 inchers and that gun also a grade 2 but hammerless 16 O frame has had some TLC already.

[Bill Murphy]

Answering Ray's question about the gun I probably shouldn't have had refinished. When I was 14 years old, in 1960, I bought a really nice little VH 28 gauge from another 14 year old in my gun club. I paid him the price of a new Savage 99 that he wanted, $130 if I recall correctly. The gun had a pretty perfect stock with checkering filled with varnish, perfect buttplate, very high condition barrel blue, no colors and good screws. In the summer of 1967, I met a more than sweet young thing at Ocean City, New Jersey. She lived in Jenkintown, so in the fall I took the Parker to Paul Jaeger's shop to have the checkering redone and visit Jannie Broughton. At that point, the gun was just short of pristine. However, I guess it was my Dad who wanted to take a trip to Del Grego's to get some work done on a 16 gauge GHE. This was in 1972 and somehow we decided for him to take the 28 gauge along. This is the trip where Dad took the pictures of Larry and Babe working in the shop, pictures that appeared in Kevin McCormack's 1997 DGJ articles on the Del Gregos. My 28 came back from Del Grego with new colors and new rust blue. It is a beautiful gun, with more than 40 years of clay targets and bird hunting on the new finish, finish it probably didn't need. In three years, I will have owned that gun for 56 years, the same number of years it was owned by its previous caretakers. I'm running out of time to wear those Remington colors off.

[Justin Julian]

Here is an auction--not mine--far from over as I type this, of a reasonably well restored Parker VH 12 gauge. The current price, being about $1100, is more than it would sell for (at least on GB) if it were all original and down in the 20 or 30% range, which is probably where it was when restored. And the auction isn't over. I am watching this auction to further understand how the market responds to properly (even if not perfectly) restored Parkers, which was the original point of this thread. Clearly, a proper restoration does increase market value if the gun started at 30% or less condition, and very likely dramatically so if it was previously botched, such as a hot blued frame "refinish".

The question in my mind is whether the increase in market value will exceed the cost of the properly performed restoration? In most cases, and especially with lower grade guns, that does not appear to be the case, which is likely why we see so few properly restored field grade guns on the market. Its like counterfeiting a one dollar bill.

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=363163311

[Mills Morrison]

Restoring a gun to make a profit is a losing game, just like restoring old houses, old cars or almost anything else. I am restoring a DH 10 gauge that was beat to hell. Fortunately, I did not pay much for it, but I will still have a lot more in it than it is worth. I am doing it for the satisfaction of bringing an old gun back to life.

[Rich Anderson]

I am doing it for the satisfaction of bringing an old gun back to life.

THATS exactly why a restorastion should be done, to give a fitting speciman another 100 years of field time.

[Bill Murphy]

If it weren't for the need for restocking, I would have my blued 28 gauge redone. It is a great gun, but no one appreciates the fine gloss blue on the receiver. It has a rare N.F. Strebe Gun Works recoil pad, so I'm guessing that my old friend Norman Strebe probably blued the gun as well as restocking it. Norman's shop is about three good baseball throws from William Wagner's gun store where the gun was originally sold in 1900. As I recall, we determined that this gun was the seventh 28 gauge sold by Parker Brothers. I would have to reread the PP article to be sure.

[Ray Masciarella]

Mills, I restored one of those old Savannah homes on Harris St and I think (hope) I'm ahead of the game. Just have to buy the rascals right!!!

[Brad Bachelder]

For what it is worth, we restore far more high grade guns than field grade guns. However we have never lost out on a Restoration of a good basic field gun. We evaluate what the function and cosmetics would cost in a high condition gun. Each gun needs to be evaluated on an individual basis. A properly restored P grade will bring a 60 to 70 percent value. Assume that a 70% C grade in original condition will yield a very high price at auction. Take a C in less than 30% and Restore it to 90% it will yield At least a 70% sale value, far higher than the cost of Restoration.
The most significant fact is that a Restoration that is done in the same fashion as the original manufacturer is not a refinish, rather a proper preservation of the guns original integrity.

Brad

[allen newell]

Bravo Brad

[dwight pugh]

well said Brad

[John Campbell]

... The most significant fact is that a Restoration that is done in the same fashion as the original manufacturer is not a refinish, rather a proper preservation of the guns original integrity.

Brad

Mr. Bachelder is most respected in his field, and I may be too strict in my limits of vocabulary here... but "preservation" is the retention of original finish. Restoration is its recreation... as far as an independent workman can match it.

Thus, "restoration" is, by clarity of language, still restoration.

Nonetheless, Mr. Bachelder's wise assessment of the relative values of the work is well stated. And I have the greatest admiration for his craftsmanship, I might add!

This should, in no way, be interpreted as a criticism of his work, his fine character, or his opinions.

[Paul Stafford]

As I am a young collector, compared to most of the experts in this forum. People will pay whatever the price if they want the gun bad enough, so called original, or restored. There are many qualified Parker gunsmiths in our member base. It's my opinion that none of them would perform work to intentionally devalue a prized Parker.

On a side note:
I have several Parkers that were sent back (PGCA letter noted), things changed, refinished, replaced ect. Why?? Obviously the original caretakers wanted the guns to fit their use and lifestyle. Does this mean we should not enjoy them? Clean 100 years of crud off the stocks to see the beautiful wood below? Refinish the Damascus to see the original pattern that once was..??

I think we would all love to have an un-touched, all original never fired Parker. The reality of this idea is only for a limited number of collectors. I shoot my Parkers all of the time, care for them and most of all admire them. A Trojan can make me smile as much as an A grade, it's all about what you love and appreciate.

I'll now step off my soapbox.....

[Rich Anderson]

[QUOTE=Paul Stafford]I think we would all love to have an un-touched, all original never fired Parker. QUOTE]

Paul I'll pass on one of those. I have had NIB Pre 64 Winchester M70's, a couple of Repo's and a Colt Diamondback 22 which I still have. The NIB doesn't interest me in the least as a big dollar is paid and it can't be used. The gun is destined to be a closet queen forever and I like to use my guns. I have a couple with lots of original case color and if I wear some off using the gun it will be the next caretaker's delima.

[Justin Julian]

When viewing the hunting photos posted, I've noticed that many of the members here do their hunting with restored Parkers. That makes a lot of sense to me. Parkers in high original condition are finite, rare and expensive. Taking a gun into the wet brush for a full day of hard hunting will cost you some of that finish every time.

The options are to hunt with a grey gun with little to no original finish remaining, or to hunt with a restored gun. Personally, I like to do both depending on the mood I'm in and the hunting company I will be keeping that day. So at least for me, there is room in my safe for both original Parkers with little finish remaining, and restored Parkers that look almost new.

[Paul Stafford]

[QUOTE=Paul Stafford]I think we would all love to have an un-touched, all original never fired Parker. QUOTE]

Paul I'll pass on one of those. I have had NIB Pre 64 Winchester M70's, a couple of Repo's and a Colt Diamondback 22 which I still have. The NIB doesn't interest me in the least as a big dollar is paid and it can't be used. The gun is destined to be a closet queen forever and I like to use my guns. I have a couple with lots of original case color and if I wear some off using the gun it will be the next caretaker's delima.


What I meant is I would enjoy it, unfired or not. Leaving a gun in a closet for a hundred years, is not how the Parker family intended us to enjoy their fine craftsmenship. I know that this thinking is "against the grain". I hope to have 40+ more years of collecting but Life is short! Do you want to have memories of taking your prized Parker out and enjoying it, or just a memory of putting it in a closet or a safe....

I choose to use and enjoy them...

Just an opinion...

[Brad Bachelder]

Kensal
To clarify my use of the word "preservation", wood and metal finishes are used to preserve structural integrity in their respective applications. With time and use these finishes degrade, exposing the wood and metal to accelerated degrading. Restoration halts the accelerated degrading process there by preserving the structural integrity of both the wood and metal.

Brad

[Harryreed]

Here is an issue I am now dealing with. Over the last 40 years I have collected Parkers, L C Smiths, Lefevers, Ithicas..... At this point in my life when I do get to go out to hunt and shoot I always end up taking the ole favorite. Some of those collected firearms are good examples of safe "queens". They have not seen the light of day in 30 years. Now my problem is compounded by what should ultimately happen to them. Wife and daughters have no interest or any idea what to do with them in my absence. Over the last 2 years I have sold many of them and now have had a change in mind set. Why do I keep them stored away in a dark gun safe. Let someone else enjoy them. Still too hard to part with some of them. Not because of any value, but because what they represent in our heritage and history.

[Paul Stafford]

Kensal
To clarify my use of the word "preservation", wood and metal finishes are used to preserve structural integrity in their respective applications. With time and use these finishes degrade, exposing the wood and metal to accelerated degrading. Restoration halts the accelerated degrading process there by preserving the structural integrity of both the wood and metal.

Brad

Well said...

[Ray Masciarella]

You know, Paul made a poimt I did not think of earlier. Many guns were sent back to Prker to effectively be "restored" completely or partially. No one in the collector community seems to have any problem with that. For example, early gunswere routinely returnedor the installation of ejectors. They required new stock, and heck, while they were there some were rebrowned. One caims that restoration devalued the gun, do they? Or am I missing something.

Question: If a parker was sent back to the factory to be restored and is now in 50% condition, is it worth less than a gun that was not sent back and is in 50% condition? If not, how could properly restroing it now have an adverse affect on its value?

[Dean Romig]

Question: If a parker was sent back to the factory to be restored and is now in 50% condition, is it worth less than a gun that was not sent back and is in 50% condition? If not, how could properly restroing it now have an adverse affect on its value?


If it is documented Parker or Remington work then it is considered 'original' and not done by some "unknown" whose methods and thoroughness cannot be supported. Untold numbers of Parkers have been very nicely cosmetically refinished but we so often see checkering patterns that are not true to original patterns, or LPI, or peaked diamonds as opposed to flat topped diamonds (according to the grade) as well as poorly done color case hardening and Damascus finish. We've also seen a good number of Parkers that, once again, have been cosmetically refinished nicely - even paying close attention to keeping as close to original regarding the features mentioned above.... but have paid no attention to mechanical issues. Certain guns come to mind and have issues with the following after being refinished.... loose at the hinge even to the point of being off face.... safety issues - doesn't always work (which to me means it has no safety).... trigger or sear problems - the gun doubles or has a "hair trigger".... cocking problems, opening or closing problems, ejector problems, etc., etc.

There are a few exceptionally skilled craftsmen out there who will restore your Parker in each and every respect to exactly how Parker would have done it and their prices reflect that attention to detail.... and there are other people who will refinish your Parker very handsomely.... and there are some in between.... 'nuff said.

[Ray Masciarella]

Dean, If a gun built in 1890 was sent to Rem in 1940, then it would have not been restored to 1890 specs, right? Even so, it would still be considered "original"? I don't have much experience here but I remember passing in on 1890s AH that had been recolored and restocked by Rem, and I thought it looked nothing like the original so I passed. Did not have the same value to me. But I bet that had Brad restored it, it would have suited me just fine and been worth the price. It could be that guns restored today have as much or more value than guns restored by Rem, at least to me.

I think it is kinda interesting that the hobby has no problem with gun gun potentially restored somewhat improperly by Rem, but does have a problem, at least to some, if properly restored today. The market probably balances this all out when it comes to monetary value as opposed to personal thoughts about whether a gun should ever be restored.

[Rich Anderson]

Harry I face the same delima..no kids to pass them down to and a wife who wouldn't know what to do. I could (and have considered this) narrow this down to a couple of deer rifles, a 16ga, Gunner's Gun and the VHE 28 skeet and sell the rest. I could use the money to go hunting somewhere instead of leaving it behind. I have one more year to work and have picked out the PArker that I'll sell upon retirement to feather the financial nest. I have always thought of the guns as a subsidy I just hope I'll have the fortitude to see it through.

[Harryreed]

C.O.B., I think as our generation ages the collecting world will see some nice pieces come available. Current generation does not have the same affection for old firearms as we do.

[Rich Anderson]

The younger generation wants black guns and synthetic stocks. These guns weather Parker, Winchester, LC Smith, rifle or shotgun are a finite resource BUT as people who appreciate these fine old guns we are a finite resource as well. this comes into my mind set of thinning down the numbers while I'm able and there are still enthusiasts to enjoy them.

[edgarspencer]

Here's an example of a gun that was made valueless by someone who had no idea what Parkers are supposed to look like. I guess it's pretty obvious I have no connection with this auction.

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=364371021

[Daryl Corona]

Here's an example of a gun that was made valueless by someone who had no idea what Parkers are supposed to look like. I guess it's pretty obvious I have no connection with this auction.

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=364371021

Sad is'nt it Edgar?

[edgarspencer]

"Magnificently Redone" "Professionally Refurbished by a highly skilled professional. Beautiful High Gloss Bluing, and Highly Polished Receiver "

Clearly, the guy has no appreciation for what a Parker is.
Read the whole description; it's pathetic.

[edgarspencer]

C.O.B., I think as our generation ages the collecting world will see some nice pieces come available. Current generation does not have the same affection for old firearms as we do.

Harry, sadly I have to agree, and this doesn't bode well for the market values.

[Rich Anderson]

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=364371021[/url]

I would hope not:nono: It's criminal what someone has done to this.

[Dean Romig]

You guys must be crazy to turn your noses up at a beavertail forend and a straight grip.

[Dennis V. Nix]

I am surprised there are any bidders at all. That gun is totally ruined by some knee jerk wanna be gunsmith who has no idea of what a quality gun is. He should be shot and then shot again.

Dennis

[Bruce Parham]

... He should be shot and then shot again.

Dennis

And his horse too!

Bruce

[Rich Anderson]

Some people just don't know their limitations.

Den you could add this and have a pair of 10's....think driven clays:rotf:

[Marc Retallack]

C.O.B., Mr. Reed and Mr. Spencer,

What age group do you consider the current generation of shooters? If you mean teens and 20's, then yes, most are enamored with synthetics and semis. That, to me, is just the generation responding to fads and marketing. The pumpgun and the semi-auto contributed to the downfall of the American doublegun industry when former generations flocked to those actions for increased firepower and lower cost.

Tastes mature. I'm 40 now. I was almost 30 when an interest in classic doubles was sparked for me. Fortunately, the desire started around the time when I started to have the income to afford nicer firearms. I think for many of my generation, with all the demands of young families and kids in college, the disposable income isn't available to buy higher end guns. Given time, that will change.

There are a few of the younger generation who appreciate these guns. Danny Suponski comes to mind. From what I've learned through reading these threads, a lot of that is thanks to his father but also the community here. Take someone younger in to the fields and coverts this autumn. Let him or her use one of your doubles. Maybe you'll light a fire...

Cheers,
Marcus

[Harryreed]

Wouldn't you like to see the factory letter on that Parker and compare it with what it is now???

[Harryreed]

You are correct Marcus. If they ever shoot a light, balanced double the love will begin. There is nothing better then the feeling of cradling those double barrels in your hand on a rising target. I do not mean any disrespect to younger generations regarding my comments. They see beauty in a diffent form than I do. FYI, my generation is in their 60's. I had a love for old lever guns when I was a teenager. First one I ever shot was a Marlin 1892 in .22. Couldn't miss!!! Then, when I handled my first double I became even more addicted. Sorry, how did I digress down memory lane?

[Paul Stafford]

The younger generation wants black guns and synthetic stocks. These guns weather Parker, Winchester, LC Smith, rifle or shotgun are a finite resource BUT as people who appreciate these fine old guns we are a finite resource as well. this comes into my mind set of thinning down the numbers while I'm able and there are still enthusiasts to enjoy them.

As I am the younger generation, I can appreciate the skill and craftsmanship of a fine Parker. I wish I could have seen all the beautiful racks of Damascus guns in a sporting goods store in the early 1900's. What a sight it must have been...

[Dave Suponski]

Marc,Thank You for the kind word's. Danny loves these old guns and he has an appreciation for the workmanship that went into them. I cannot take all the credit though as alot of his interest came from the great people he has met and befriended in the PGCA. I still can't believe how much he loves grouse hunting! Lately though he seems to be up to his ears in another kind of fine American craftsmanship.....the two legged female kind...:whistle::rotf:

[charlie cleveland]

dont worry the grouse hunting willcome back around... charlie

[Eldon Goddard]

What age group do you consider the current generation of shooters? If you mean teens and 20's, then yes, most are enamored with synthetics and semis. That, to me, is just the generation responding to fads and marketing. The pumpgun and the semi-auto contributed to the downfall of the American doublegun industry when former generations flocked to those actions for increased firepower and lower cost.


I got my dad into these old guns. Only problem is he likes the Winchester Model 21. I try to get all my friends converted. One now is into over and unders and another liked my side by sides and went out and bought a stoeger. :banghead:

[edgarspencer]

One step at a time, Eldon. Once he finds out how much more enjoyable SxS guns are, you then need to educate him on quality and balance. He sounds ripe for becoming a convert.

[Bill Murphy]

Sometimes these conversions are a struggle. By the time I was 14, I had a Lefever, a 20 gauge Model 24 Winchester, and a Parker. That year, my Dad finally broke away from his Model 12 and bought an AYA Matador from Tendler's in DC. Four years later, in 1965, he went off the deep end and we split a pair of Model 21s. That's when I had him. Considering that I had my first double gun in about 1957 or so, the conversion took me about eight years. Now I'm wondering who was converting whom.

[Eldon Goddard]

I don't want to admit it but we had a lot of fun shooting that 20 gauge stoeger. Not a piece of quality work but fun none the less. I had my 870 wingmaster and we traded off shooting 20 gauges. I guess when it comes down to it if it is a gun I like it. Some just more than others.

[Craig Larter]

Would you have this gun restored----- only 30% color and many other surface defects, worn checkering etc.??????
http://jamesdjulia.com/auctions/view_lot_info.asp?lot=1438-346
Would restoration hurt the value of this gun? Improve the value and saleability?
If you would have this gun restored, what would you have done to it??

[allen newell]

No, I'd leave it alone. Provenance is too strong to do anything to it.

[edgarspencer]

I don't know what it's provenance is, but it's condition is way too nice to touch. I don't see it going much higher than the low estimate though. I'm guessing $18K, but what do I know?

[Linn Matthews]

No!

[Ray Masciarella]

No way would I restore it or do anything to it except shoot it. If I lost my mind and did want to restore it, I would do a complete restoration as no partial refinish would enhance it in anyway, IMHO.

[allen newell]

I used the term provenance incorrectly and Edgar's correct. The apparent limited production of this particular gun as noted in the auction page would dictate leaving it alone. It's apparently a too limited production model and still in decent shape to warrant messing with it. Only if it had major defects/damage etc. My 2 cents only.

[Rich Anderson]

If I had some type of mental breakdown and actually bought the gun from Julia I would do nothing to this except to use it in the way it was intended.

[edgarspencer]

There wee about 100 16ga. CH guns, but only 4 with 32" tubes, so that in itself makes it rare. The C is somewhat more rare because it fell in between the D and the B with very little more coverage than the D, but 50% more expensive.
I had a nice 30" 16ga. CHE that was my dad's. I believe that was my daughter's first year of her master's degree. I believe I shall remind her of this often, very very often.

[Dennis V. Nix]

That is one beautiful gun. I would do nothing to it except to shoot it and enjoy it for years. I can only hope to someday own a gun that nice.

Dennis

[Will Gurton]

Since we are playing what if, and yes I know it's not a Parker.

http://jamesdjulia.com/auctions/view_lot_info.asp?lot=1480-346

What about this one?

I have one similar but no stock head repair.

Thanks, Will

[Dennis V. Nix]

Will, I would have the action tightened up and put back on face and then have the checkering redone by a professional. I would have him take a look at the pistol grip and make it presentable. Other than that I would not touch the gun for restoration purposes. It is a great old gun to me.

Dennis

[Paul Stafford]

It's a matter of preference, If your going to own and shoot it for 50 years as I would. Then its going to need some work eventually. Enjoy them, if you want to buy something for an investment visit a banker.

[George Bagley]

Restored guns that are identified as restored or as an upgrade are personal preference. A vh that is described as a gh with skeet specs( but not called a skeet gun) is pure dishonesty! My one and only Parker is a 1950 Remington restored 1922 PHE with original specs so no prejudice advanced or implied.