Question about shotgun primer

[Jim Partlow]

I'm trying to load some low pressure 16 gauge shells. Fed hull,
BPSG-16 wad, Rem primer, 7/8oz shot, 21 grains 7625 powder.
My question: I was able to gather all the Componets except rem
Primers. I know it is a big no no to substitute Componets, but is
There a safe substitute for Rem primer? I have CCI 209s and Win
209s. Any help would be appreciated . Jim P.

[paul stafford jr]

I don't worry about primer brand, because the loads we shoot in these old guns are very soft. but a have found accuracy problems in rifles

[Jim Partlow]

Thanks for the reply Paul. In my research, I found that a
Primer change can effect pressure as much as 2000 psi. Just
Want to be as safe as possible. Jim P.

[charlie cleveland]

use the winchester 209 primer.. charlie

[Jim Partlow]

Do you know how much that will raise pressure? Jim P

[Dave Suponski]

Jim, I substitute the Winchester 209 for the Remington 209 with no noticible increase in pressure. I have a chart around here somewhere from Tom Armbrust that show's the primers are almost equal pressure wise. And besides the Winchesters are cheaper..:)

[John Campbell]

On this one I have to disagree with Charlie. I'd pick the CCI if low pressure is the goal. Win 209 are always a bit hotter than the rest. Not so much that you'd get into pressure trouble, but if you have CCI primers, why not keep things as low as you can?

[John Dallas]

Here's the link to the Armbrust Primer testing:
http://www.armbrust.acf2.org/primersubs.htm

[Jim Partlow]

Thanks for the input. I did read the Armbrust Primer testing article, and
From what I gathered the CCI would be lower pressure.
I've also thought about reducing shot charge
To 3/4. I believe that would also reduce pressure
significantly. Two of the guns I plan to shoot
With this load have Damascus barrels. I figure
The lower the better. Jim P

[John Taddeo]

The crimp depth chart caught my attention , I am thinking your spacer (when loading 2.5's) should be given a good bit of consideration. Maybe a little more than your primer choice?

[Jim Partlow]

Not sure what you meanby spacer. I will be roll crimping my
Shells using overshot card. My understanding roll crimping causes
Less pressure than a regular crimp. If I go to a 3/4 oz load
I'll add a cherio or bean to make up for the omitted 1/8 oz
of shot.

[John Taddeo]

Sorry Jim , I was referring to stand in spacers in place of a short kit when going from 2.75 to 2.5 hull length. I am surprised a .030 difference would increase pressure that much. If I am reading the chart right. (my fault .020)

[Paul Harm]

Factory crimps are around .055 to .060 and that's what all the reloading data is based on. The resistance when a shotgun shell goes off is the weight of the wad and shot and the crimp depth resisting opening. So John, you're right, the crimp depth does make a big difference in pressures. From what I've read on primers, the Federal 209A and one CCI primer [ CCI 209M ] are " hotter " primers - all the rest are pretty close to the same and shouldn't make a difference at the low pressures we're using. On another reloading forum the guys recommend if subbing a Fed primer for a Win or such to go down 1 grain in powder. I've never done it seeing how I usually have at least 5 to 10,000 Cheddites on hand, just saying what they do. Most of my reloading data shows Win or Rem primers and I've always used Cheddites [ because they're way cheaper ] with no reservations.

[John Taddeo]

Thank you Paul, now I set up my crimping station to achieve a slight recessed as close to factory crimp as possible. When switching to shorts I am slipping the short kit plate in and having at it (still getting a nice crimp). With pressure being a little more of a concern with these loads exactly where would I be measuring from start to finish to obtain this.055 to .060. I hate to sound stupid but I don't know where this measurement is being taken. And it sure looks like it makes a difference.

Thanks much.

[Robert Rambler]

Crimp Depth Measurement

[Pete Lester]

The resistance when a shotgun shell goes off is the weight of the wad and shot and the crimp depth resisting opening.

Anyone know or care to guess what the difference is between a once fired case and one that has been reloaded 5, 6, 7 or more times? I believe it is not very substantial but will be less. Want to help lower pressure a little bit with a star or folded crimp, reload well used hulls.

Take a look at this article about the difference crimp depth can make, there is a chart about 1/2 way down the page. The difference between .030 and .090 for the same reload was nearly a 4000 psi increase, yikes!

http://www.armbrust.acf2.org/primersubs.htm

[Rick Losey]

If I go to a 3/4 oz load
I'll add a cherio or bean to make up for the omitted 1/8 oz
of shot.


maybe you should go with the bean

just saying :rotf:
http://parkerguns.org/forums/showthread.php?t=10750

[Jim Partlow]

Paul.... Where does a roll crimp fit into the
Pressure quotient? I have read somewhere
that roll crimps offer less resistance, thus less
Pressure. Would appreciate your input.
Thanks Jim P.

[Rick Losey]

how much does the roll crimp actually reduce pressure by?

[Jim Partlow]

To be perfectly honest I'm not sure if a roll crimp does reduce
Pressure. I read about it somewhere, and they did not offer any
Numbers. It may have been from Ballistic products. I'll have
To check.

[John Taddeo]

Thank you gentlemen for some very helpful info.

[Pete Lester]

Paul.... Where does a roll crimp fit into the
Pressure quotient? I have read somewhere
that roll crimps offer less resistance, thus less
Pressure. Would appreciate your input.
Thanks Jim P.

Roll crimps reduce pressure slightly but it is hard to know exactly how much in each case. Personnally I will estimate/guess 500 psi on average when using it over a fold crimp recipe. Here is article from Ballistic Products with a few side by side comparisons. As you can see it can reduce pressure by as much as 1500 psi or as little as 100 psi.

http://ballisticproducts.wordpress.com/2012/12/14/does-a-shotshell-roll-crimp-raise-or-lower-pressures-versus-a-fold-crimp/

[Jim Partlow]

Thanks for the reply. Jim P.

[Rich Anderson]

I'm loading the 2 1/2 RST hull in everything. Your powder charge for a 7/8 oz load is higher than what I'm using for a 1oz load. I'm using 20.5gr of SR7625 with a Win 209 primer. Velocity is 1150FPS and pressure is 7400PSI. I think the hottest shotsheel primer is the Federal. Win, Rem and Cheddite 209 are all pretty equal. I have never used a CCI shotshell primer.

I like the cherrio as a filler if needed. It crushes easily and doesn't adversly effect anything.

[Paul Harm]

Thank you Pete - always thought I had read somewhere that roll crimps produced at least some lower pressures and now we see where someone tested fold/roll crimps. Plus they look " cool ". Rich, from my Alliant reloaders handbook - the CCI 209M [ magnum ] is hotter and can not be substituted for the CCI 209 - Federal 209A is hotter and can not be substituted for the Federal 209 - Rem 209 is hotter and can not be substituted for the Rem 209P. Remington primers are out of price and haven't seen them offered for awhile - I've never used a CCI primer, and the only Federal primers I've seen are the 209A, or magnum primers. That said, we have Win, Cheddite, or Fiocchi [ spelling ? ] primers left and they are all about the same for pressure. The Foicchi primers come in two sizes - 616 and 209. The 616's are used in their shells and are bigger and once used in other shells you'll have to keep on using them. The 209's are the same size as all the other 209's and no problems.