Altering Repros, does it make a difference?

[Greg Baehman]

We all are aware of how serious collectors feel about altering Parker Bros. guns from the way they left the factory in Meriden -- they want them all original and pooh-pooh anything short of that, but what about Repros?

Let's say you were to cut off the skeleton butt plate and install a pad on your Repro, would you expect that to affect its value? How about opening chokes? How about refinishing? What do alterations do to the desirability and resale value of Parker Repros? I'm looking for opinions, what's your's?

[Dean Romig]

Personally, I believe that altering repros can negatively affect the value... except in certain cases. To that point, to have an expert professional re-do the color case hardening is a positive if some original color is worn or flaked off. Another positive on a used Repro is to have an expert cut the mullered borders on the checkering... keeping in mind that the Parker Reproduction by Winchester is an exact copy of the Remington era Parkers that were sent to Japan in order that every detail of the original gun could be accurately duplicated, and Remington did not cut mullered borders on their Parker's checkering.

[Greg Baehman]

Dean, would you extend your allowance to re-case coloring all original, but colorless Parker Bros. guns and mullering Remington Parkers or do you draw the line to just Repros?

[Dean Romig]

No, I would not alter an original Parker. Some colorless originals might benefit from re-case coloring but a Remington Parker would lose value in my opinion if the borders were mullered... in my opinion. Doing so would be akin to opening a Parker's chokes. In my opinion - if you don't like something about your Parker, get another one that better suits your tastes... there are few enough unaltered Parker's out there.

[Kenny Graft]

First we are talking about parker reproductions that the most are meant to be working guns. A new unfired or nice original gun will always hold its value! A used gun that has been refinished but is original otherwise is also good but worth less than the same item with original finishes. Now start altering the gun like remove the SSBP, shorten stocks, add wood back, mess with barrels, change wood, ect. This kind of work will always decrease the guns value. Most up-grade work if done properly will hold some extra value but must not be ugly or over the top. Spend 10K making up a A1 spl from a lower grade gun....that's great for the owner who wants his dream gun but will most likely never bring back the investment made when sold. My advice: Only make alterations if there is no other option, make sure the gun is a keeper working gun that will be used in its new configuration. You must get the value lost by using the gun. Like a car or truck....the more you drive and enjoy it the less its worth.....Parker reproductions were made to use....(-: I use mine and I don't look back! thanks all SXS ohio

[Bill Murphy]

One thing we must remember is that a flat back pad installed on a Repro with a cut off skeleton butt comes out at about the same length it was before. A creative way to get around that is to leave the wood intact and install the pad on the original curve and fill in the widow's peak with black acraglass.

[Ken Hill]

Interesting discussion to say the least. Original Parkers were modified to suit the needs of the owner and now we value an original gun not the modified gun. When the original Parkers were made, they were meant to be used.

The repro guns aren't that old and who knows what an unmolested one will be worth 50 years from now. If you are buying a modified repro, then make sure the modifications are what you would have done and for less than an unmolested gun.

[Bill Murphy]

An outrageous restocked 28 gauge Repro 2 barrel set was sold at the Easton MD show last fall for a very reasonable price. I was disappointed I didn't give it a closer look, but it sold like lightning before I got a close look. What a great gun it was, much nicer than the original. I know where it is, but I don't think it will ever come on the market. I'm sure the restock cost way over half the selling price of the gun.

[Greg Baehman]

Let's add some dollars and cents to this discussion . . .

It seems that most would agree that some alterations may yield a positive effect to the practical value of a Repro, but will create a negative effect on the monetary value. How much is the question?

Restocking, as Bill Murphy pointed out, can add to the practical (fit issues) value and aesthetics of the gun, but it surely could be argued that it would be detrimental to resale value. Same goes for refinishing. A seller would be lucky to break even and most likely would take a $500 hit, maybe more, if and when they decide to sell if making these alterations.

Whack off a skeleton butt plate to install a pad a seller of a 12 or 20-ga. Repro may realize it cost him $500 to $1000 to do so, a 28-ga. owner may see a $1500 loss.

Alter the chokes on a set of 28-ga. 28" DHE Repro barrels a seller may find out it cost him upwards of $500 of monetary value in doing so, even though it may have added a little perceived practical value to him or her.

Those are my opinions, what do you think?

[Ken Hill]

As Bill mentioned above, cutting off the skeleton butt and adding a pad may not buy much for the LOP. The skeleton butt is a nice treatment on the repros. I agree cutting off the skeleton butt and adding a pad is a big deduction ($1000). You can always use a slip-on pad. Opening 28ga 28" chokes that are wrong to begin with is maybe $100 as long as they are opened correctly and are usable.

[Kenny Graft]

Cabela's listing on guns intl right now: Used 28ga DT-SG-BTF This is the gun I have been looking for...then I see it has had a pad added and widows peak filled. Probably no take off plate or screws to add it back? They still want all the money for it? Im sure it will sell for less than they are asking? 3500.00 would be closer I would think.?? SXS ohio...

[Ken Hill]

Notice the LOP didn't really change much on the cabela's gun. That is a seldom seen configuration and I agree the price is high.

[Bill Murphy]

Look at the pictures. The Cabela's gun still has a slope on the top of the stock leading to the pad. It is absolutely ugly. You can't get rid of the skeleton butt and add length, end of story.

[Greg Baehman]

You can't get rid of the skeleton butt and add length, end of story.
You may be right, Bill, but not necessarily in all cases. The Cabela's gun at 14 1/2" wears a thin pad. Here's a pic of the butt end of my SCC with an added Silver's pad, it has a 14 3/4" LOP. I do not know what it measured originally, but unless it was ordered with custom dimensions or had a ST stock installed on this DT gun (as some did), you can bet it was shorter than 14 3/4". It shows absolutely no visible clues of ever having a SSBP installed. Do I wish it still sported its original SSBP? In the words of our favorite candidate, Sarah Palin . . . "You betcha!"

[Paul Ehlers]

I'm seeing confusion in the market dealing with repro's. It's the same as for original Parkers. Parkers in high original condition justify high asking & selling prices. When you alter these guns or use them hard & put them away wet. Their value drops accordingly. This still doesn't stop someone that has a well used shooter from looking at the internet & seeing an asking price on a high condition gun & think his gun is worth the same.

The repros are doing the same thing in the market. Someone has a used repro where the CC are worn off, there's bluing wear & the wood has handleing marks all over. Yet he asks the same price as a new un-fired gun. Now alter that same gun some how and the price should drop accordingly.

I set values on repros, just like I do any gun. I grade the gun by my grading scale & value it for what I think it is worth. If it's new in box with great wood & a configuration I like it'll get my highest value rating. If it's a used gun I judge it on it's own merits & price it accordingly. Used ones are shooters & NIB might be considered one to put away.

My number one deduct for a repro is a cut-off skeleton plate. No matter how good the gun is over all, I feel the man who cut the plate off just had a $1000.00 worth of saw dust hit the floor.

Configuration also plays a part. A 20ga single trigger 26" gun IMO is the base line repro & I value it the lowest on my scale due to it being the most common repro out there. Start adding the one off features and the price goes up accordingly I.E. barrel length, DT, gauge, extra barrels, beavertail etc.

[Pat Dugan]

A friend bought a 28 ga repro that had originally a 14 3/4 length
of pull that was cut down and the skeleton butt plate was reinstalled.
The gun was then resold for 2500 to a gun dealer in Thomasvill.
they then resold for 4200...so value is set by buyer

[Paul Ehlers]

A friend bought a 28 ga repro that had originally a 14 3/4 length
of pull that was cut down and the skeleton butt plate was reinstalled.
The gun was then resold for 2500 to a gun dealer in Thomasvill.
they then resold for 4200...so value is set by buyer

Your dead-on about the value being set by the buyer. Something is only worth what someone is willing to pay for it!

With that said:

IMO your friend may have hurt himself when he cut off that long length of pull stock. The 14 3/4" LOP repros are far & few between. It's an example of the one-off features I alluded to in my earlier post. I imagine there are guys who need a long LOP that would love to find one of the 14 3/4" guns & might be willing to pay a slight premium for one.

[Bill Murphy]

Greg, the Cabela's gun may be 14 1/2" with a thin pad, but the stock slopes down to the pad because of the contour of the original stock. It is pathetic looking.

[Greg Baehman]

Yeah, I know. The point I was making is that a Repro's SSBP can be cut off with the widow's peak area cut off with it and if a 1" pad is added it will increase length. I posted the pic of my SCC that makes that point.

[Bob Jurewicz]

Here is another Repro that has had the SBP replaced with a pad. The widows peak remains and the LOP went from 14 1/4" original to 14 3/4" with pad.

http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j106/Bobguns/ParkerRepro20-03590014.jpg (http://s78.photobucket.com/user/Bobguns/media/ParkerRepro20-03590014.jpg.html)

Bob Jurewicz

[Bill Murphy]

Not to belabor the point, but show me how you do it on a 28 gauge without losing either length or height of the butt itself. I have seen it done and it doesn't work. It should be no problem on a 12 or a 20. As a matter of fact, you could make a modified Monte Carlo out of a 12 or 20 stock and it would look great. The 28 gauge butt is too small to do any shortening of the height of the butt. Why did they do it the way they did it on the Cabela's stock. Answer, they couldn't do it any other way.

[Jay Gardner]

Regarding case colors; I had my 28 ga Repro re-colored by Brad. Unlike original Parkers, when the sprayed on repro case colors wear off what remains is a shinny nickel-finish receiver that looks cheap. When he did the colors I ask Brad to scrape the piano finish and put on a finish consistent with what would have been found on an original D-grade. The results were impressive and the gun is pretty much identical cosmetically to the $49K Parkers Galazan produced.

[WmRike]

Years ago I was spending some idle time with the Porsche dealer. The guy made a simple statement that I'll always remember, and I think it applies equally to guns. He observed that as a rule of thumb, whatever money was spent modifying a car will essentially reduce the car's value by that same amount.

[Ralph English]

If I might expand on Dean's remarks made @ 11:32, 7/19. Remingtons purchase of the Parker Shotgun took place on June 15, 1934. Remington continued to produce shotguns in Meriden, Conn. until mid 1938, then the opperations were moved to Ilion, NY. Remington produced aprox. 4624 Parker shotguns in Meriden. These guns DID HAVE mullered borders. After the move to Ilion, NY; Remington produced another aprox. 1332 shotguns. The Ilion Remington shotguns ( regrettably ) DID NOT have the mullered borders around the checkering.

[Peter Clark]

I like mine better than before Brad prettied them up. Since they are not for sale, and won't be while I am alive, it was the right decision for me (and for Wyatt). Like Jay said, my 28 ga., which I bought NIB, was a sickly grey after two seasons.
Variety is the spice of life!
-plc-

[Jay Gardner]

I didn't wait for my original "case coloring" to wear off so I did it in 5-minutes with a tube of semi-chrome. Here's my 28 ga Repro after Brad worked his magic. I think it's not unreasonable to think this increased the value of my Repro, but....
http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n308/Doublegun_2006/28Repro1BB.jpg (http://s115.photobucket.com/user/Doublegun_2006/media/28Repro1BB.jpg.html)
http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n308/Doublegun_2006/ParkerRepr01BB.jpg (http://s115.photobucket.com/user/Doublegun_2006/media/ParkerRepr01BB.jpg.html)

[Greg Baehman]

Cabela's listing on guns intl right now: Used 28ga DT-SG-BTF This is the gun I have been looking for...then I see it has had a pad added and widows peak filled. Probably no take off plate or screws to add it back? They still want all the money for it? Im sure it will sell for less than they are asking? 3500.00 would be closer I would think.?? SXS ohio...

Well, I'll be darned, amazingly this gun appears to have gotten sold. :shock: We band of originally configured 28-ga. Parker Repro owners can rejoice in knowing that our little jewels took a $1500 leap in value--in just the last couple of weeks! Hallelujah! :cool:. . . or else whacking off a skeleton butt plate only to install a funky looking pad makes no difference. :eek::cuss:

[Kenny Graft]

I would say it sold for less than the asking price///? How much less...don't know? It would be interesting to know...SXS ohio

[WmRike]

There is no way you can modify a repro to increase its value. That's a starting point.

There are working repros and collector repros, but I would venture to say that the collector attitude holds sway. A person looking for a working gun will not slide as much money across the table as the collector. A gun modified to make it more "workable" is automatically fishing about in the lower pond. A gun modified to make it look better may in fact have added appeal, but the fact remains that it is not original, and that will be a buyer's bargaining chip at the time of sale.

[Jay Gardner]

Two of the biggest criticisms of the originals are the finish and the case coloring. Pretty hard to imagine a high quality refinish/re-case not being a positive but perhaps I am a greater fool.

[Bruce Day]

There is no way you can modify a repro to increase its value. That's a starting point.

There are working repros and collector repros, but I would venture to say that the collector attitude holds sway. A person looking for a working gun will not slide as much money across the table as the collector. A gun modified to make it more "workable" is automatically fishing about in the lower pond. A gun modified to make it look better may in fact have added appeal, but the fact remains that it is not original, and that will be a buyer's bargaining chip at the time of sale.


That is an opinion; however, Parker Reproductions that have been re-case colored with Parker correct charcoal case color hardening and re-finished with a Parker correct shellac and oil finish have been selling at a premium over slightly worn original Reproductions with the thin, chemical, easily worn case colors and polyurethane varnish. The ones I am aware of, though, have not sold at an increased price sufficient to fully account for the expense of the re-finish if done at retail cost. I am aware of only a few such guns, and presumably not all. One such gun was sold at the spring Tulsa show, another by a private dealer off show.

It may be beyond the scope of the original issue, but there are also those Repros in the white that were sold and engraved by masters such as Churchill and Gournet. Those have sold at many multiples of original price. Some are owned by significant Parker collectors.

[ron belanger]

I didn't wait for my original "case coloring" to wear off so I did it in 5-minutes with a tube of semi-chrome. Here's my 28 ga Repro after Brad worked his magic. I think it's not unreasonable to think this increased the value of my Repro, but....
http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n308/Doublegun_2006/28Repro1BB.jpg (http://s115.photobucket.com/user/Doublegun_2006/media/28Repro1BB.jpg.html)
http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n308/Doublegun_2006/ParkerRepr01BB.jpg (http://s115.photobucket.com/user/Doublegun_2006/media/ParkerRepr01BB.jpg.html)


That looks gorgeous!
In my humble opinion, I think you have enhanced the value of your gun by having it case colored like it should have been done in the first place.
I would have my own done like yours if and when the original "coloring" should wear off. May I ask the cost of the work by Brad?

[Jay Gardner]

Walt,

Brad did the work 3-4 years ago and I honestly don't remember but it was very reasinable and therefore an easy decision. When the original color wears off the receiver is almost as shinny as chrome, not dull like an original Parker.

[Dennis V. Nix]

Walt,

I am curious as to why you would use Simi Chrome to take off the reproduction case hardening. When the receiver is heated up to do a real case hardening won't it simply destroy the reproduction case hardening in the process?

Brad Bachelder sure does great work.

Dennis

[Jay Gardner]

If I did it over again I wouldn't bother with the Semi-Chrome.

[Greg Baehman]

I wonder if that shiny nickel finish was created by applying the Semi-Chrome? After 20+ years of wear a couple of my Repros appear to be aging gracefully . . . do you think either would benefit by re-case coloring?

[Bill Murphy]

Yup, I have seen some completely white Repros and they look very much like an original Parker. If I hunted with my Repro, I would be inclined to let it grow old gracefully without refinishing. However, the Brad gun looks great.

[Jay Gardner]

Mine was definitely shiny, even before I cleaned off what remained of the faux-color. Had mine been as the ones pictured above I may not have had it re-done.

[Bill Murphy]

Jay, what's the deal with those screws? Did Brad do that? I'm not impressed.

[Jay Gardner]

Jay, what's the deal with those screws? Did Brad do that? I'm not impressed.

I don't know what you are referring to, Bill. What specifically is it about the screws that bothers you?

[Bill Murphy]

Funny color and not lined up. I said it was a nice gun, but.

[Pat Dugan]

Each to their own but I think people are not ever going to replicate original case colors because the make up of the steel is different.i have three repros and the 28 gauge colors are different than the color of the two 20 gauge guns that seem way lighter even though not hardly used much. I think the repros have Crome in the steel and the old real Parkers dont.
Look how red the screws look in the re cased Repro

[ForrestArmstrong]

I think most Parker guys would think a DHE repro with properly muellered checkering borders, enhanced engraving, shellac stock finish and true case coloring would be an improvement over a factory DHE repro. Probably it would not be valued enough higher to cover the cost of the upgrades though. As long as repros are not considered highly collectible, I would have no problem doing this if it was what I wanted. Recoil pads and screw in choke tubes are another thing though, as functional as they may be. I pass completely whenever I see those for sale, same as a pre-war commercial Mauser sporter that has been drilled for scope bases. JMPOs.

[Jay Gardner]

I had the work done on the gun because that's the way I wanted it, not to increase the value. When I part with the gun (and I am going to list it within the next week or so) I will price it based on the value of the configuration: English stock, double triggers, beavertail forend, two-barrel set.

[Peter Clark]

These screws might pass muster.

[Peter Clark]

...but then these two are a little off. However, I think I will keep the guns and suffer with the knowledge that I have crooked screws. Probably not that hard to fix if I decide it's important.

[Sam Ogle]

I didn't alter a repro to increase it's price: I did it to make it fit better. There will be, in 50years or a hundred years, those who cherish the unaltered Repro's. There are fellows who right now, shudder at any changes. God Bess 'em.
But I want to shoot mine NOW, and if it's too long, I will shorten it. If 28 inch 28 gauge barrels are choked to the point of just past silly.....I will have them honed out to where they work for me. I won't quite go the "Elmer Fudd Blunderbuss" choking; but these are great guns I paid for, and I am going to enjoy them for as long as I live, and leave the
horrid fact I put a kick-eez pad on one to historians and collectors.
Sam Ogle, Lincoln, NE

[ForrestArmstrong]

This discussion occurs fairly often on www.accuratereloading.com, particularly relating to alterations on pre-war classic sporting rifles. People are always free to do whatever they wish with their guns and purists & collectors are free to disapprove. There was a guy recently who put a picatinny rail on his H&H double rifle. Whatever.

[Greg Baehman]

I didn't realize that they discuss Parker Reproductions on accuratereloading.com.

[Sam Ogle]

I think Mr. Armstrong was just making the point that shooters vs collectors happens with other guns as well.
I once had an old trapshooter tell me: "You can't find a Parker single-barrel trap gun that hasn't had someone idiot change something on it." While the point was well taken, I also recall that this trapshooter traded constantly, because he refused to change a gun to fit him properly, so was constantly looking for the "one."
When he passed, lots of fellows assumed he had a closet of fine guns......not so. He had traded many times, but never got the gun which "fit."
So, I don't want to start a war of words here, but I will shorten a gun to fit me, then shoot it for a long time.......and let the heirs worry about unchanged authenticity.
They are a tool to me.....not a priceless, revered object not to be touched.
(Ducking now, going down in my hole like a prairie dog under fire.)
Sam

[Greg Baehman]

I think Mr. Armstrong was just making the point that shooters vs collectors happens with other guns as well.

Sam, I understand exactly the point Mr. Armstrong was making. Of course people are free to make whatever alterations they want to their firearms. And others are free to disagree. But, that was not my intention, nor the focus of this thread -- which is what these alterations do to a Parker Repro in terms of value and collectibility.

[Bob Jurewicz]

Greg,
Recognizing that your question is of two (2) quite different parts, I will address each as I see it.
1. Collectibility: I consider very few Repros as "Collectibles". They have not yet reached that status. Maybe in 50 years. So if not collectible then they are just shooters and speculative investments.
2. Value: Even as mere shooters modifications reduce market value. The gun I posted a picture of with the recoil pad, when this post started, was purchased by me for $2500 with case, cover and original SBP and screws. That was, at the time, about $1500 below market for an unaltered 99% gun.
Bob Jurewicz

[ForrestArmstrong]

....the focus of this thread -- is what these alterations do to a Parker Repro in terms of value and collectibilityRecoil pads & choke alterations reduce value/collectibility.
Expertly enhanced engraving, muellered borders, case coloring & stock finish are positives to me, but probably have little effect on value/collectiblity.
Emphasize expertly, otherwise a mediocre job definitely reduces value/collectibility/desirability.
If in the future repros achieve similar status as original Parkers, any alteration will be seen as a negative.

[Peter Clark]

I agree with Sam and take comfort in knowing that Doug Turnbull's grandson will be able to fix ANYTHING 50 years from now!

[allen newell]

If you don't plan to sell the gun and are pleased with the re-case colors then by God, just enjoy the gun and let your heirs worry (or not) about re-sale value. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder and you're the beholder and that's all that matters. my 2 cents only.

[Bill Murphy]

Using Bob J's terminology, "speculative investments" as opposed to real collector guns, be aware that the modified Repro market will not include those buyers interested in "speculative investments". The modified Repro market will also not include collectors. What is left is the shooter market where buyers are interested in Repros at well below retail prices. I would love to buy another 28 gauge in "shooter" condition, at about $1500 to $2000 below normal retail price.