Have I got it correct on damascus grades???

[Craig Larter]

Do I have this correct----for hammerless damascus, the fine damascus in the G,D and C (not bernard dam) were the same quality--same pattern. The extra fine damascus were the same quality/pattern in the B and A. Thanks

[David Holes]

No I don't think so. In theory maybe, but we see finer Damascus in the thinner barrel walled guns. Like 0 frame 16 gauges. C grades would also be finer then G grades.

[Mark Ouellette]

Gentlemen,

Fine Damascus, noted by a DD stamp on the barrels flats, was used on Grades 5 and 6, the B and A Grade Parkers. Lower grades had Damascus, Bernard on many C Grades, and twist barrels. There are of course exceptions such as a GH 10 Gauge of mine with Damascus barrels that are 6 blade Turkish. While not the fine Damascus of the higher grade, they are mighty nice barrels! I have never seem another set on a Parker.

Mark

[Craig Larter]

During the same time period was fine damascus, as stated in the catalog description/copy, the same quality/pattern in the G,D,and C non bernard???

[Dave Noreen]

Reviewing my catalogues that have Damascus barreled hammerless guns, I find the terminology used varies.

In 1900 the term is "fine Damascus" for GH-/EH-/DH-Grades, there is no mention of Damascus for CH-Grade, the term is "extra fine Damascus" for BH-Grade, and the term is "finest Damascus" for AH-Grade.

In 1901, the terms are essentially the same, except "fine Damascus" is mentioned for CH-/CHE-Grade, and now the AAH-/AAHE-Grade could be had with "very finest Damascus" barrels.

In the "Pine Cone" catalogue, the term for the GH-Grade is "fine three-blade Damascus", for the DH-/DHE- and CH-/CHE-Grades the term is "fine Damascus", for the BH-/BHE-Grade the term is "extra fine Damascus", and for the AH-/AHE- and AAH-/AAHE-Grades the term is "very finest Damascus".

In the 1913 "Flying Ducks?" catalogue, the term for the GH-/GHE-Grade is "fine three-blade Damascus." For the DH-/DHE-Grade the term is "Damascus steel, finely figured." For the CH-/CHE-Grade the term is "fine Damascus steel, finely figured." For the BH-/BHE-Grade the phrase is "extra fine Damascus, finely figured and very effective." For the AHE-Grade the phrase used is "..very finest Damascus steel that can be obtained, finely figured, handsome, durable and effective." And, for the AAHE-Grade "very finest Damascus steel."

Now, the real question is how does what the catalogue writers were putting in print, coincide with what the workers on the factory floor were putting on what grade gun? How fast and loose did they play with this? Did what Damascus tubes came on what grade change over time? While quality of barrels supposedly determined the grade of the gun, could customers order barrels outside the stated quality for the gun? Up or down? We know they often added a lower grade set of barrels at a later time for guns sent back for rebarreling. Ponderables!! Ponderables!!

[Drew Hause]

This might help
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1CGAF5f-J0-Foww572KvNYb0xSS1nBasWgHYvzD18i3c/edit

GH through BH with 3 Iron 'Oxford' have been found
GH through AH with 4 Iron 'Turkish'
BH through AAH with 6 Iron 'Turkish'

Lots more examples here
http://www.picturetrail.com/sfx/album/view/19025099
http://www.picturetrail.com/sfx/album/view/17227428

[Eldon Goddard]

Can you explain the difference of the Damascus. From what I see the number of rods used to make the ribband is what makes the difference.

[Drew Hause]

Here you go Eldon
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1zMmG-80ZUWwiLDbjBNk-wiOdDxKrhQL6jMNs5L2XVfc/edit

[Dave Noreen]

In a fit of anal retention while I was watching "Antiques Road Show", I went through all 18 Remington Arms Co. catalogues I have from the October 1894 introduction of the Remington Hammerless Gun through 1909. They were remarkably consistant. In the beginning, the A-quality guns had "two-stripe Damascus", the B-quality "fine three-stripe Damascus", the C-quality "finer Damascus", the D-quality "very fine Damascus" and the E-quality "finest Damascus." There were only three changes throughout the period. In the 1903-04 Remington Arms Co. catalogue the C-quality changed to "fine Damascus" and the D-quality to "extra fine Damascus." In the first 1906 catalogue the B-quality became just "three-stripe Damascus."

But, we see Remington Hammerless Doubles with a great variety of barrels. In his book, Semmer shows a salesman's display sample of 15 different Damascus patterns. It appears that as one moved up in quality you got a choice of more different patterns. Instead of "fine three-stripe Damascus" my 1895-vintage BE-Grade has Chain J Damascus barrels?!? Did Arthur DuBray and S.A. Tucker have similar salesman's Damascus pattern samples customers could chose from?

[Patrick Hanna]

Drew, I'm just following along. Many thanks for these astonishing links.
Patrick

[Drew Hause]

You are most welcome Patrick, but many here contributed the pics

Remington Damascus here
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1DaS94GLQ9b3w9XRU4cBX7M0LUIB_mTDFpvSZxCmUQME/edit
and http://www.picturetrail.com/sfx/album/view/17067005

including this incredible EE with "Ohonon 6 S.T." (Herring-bone) courtesy of the 'gold towel'

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL1373/6511424/17067005/303255768.jpg

DE 'Legia P.'

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL1373/6511424/17067005/401702098.jpg

and Tim Sheldon's 'Remington Arms'

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL1373/6511424/17067005/388408074.jpg

[Dean Romig]

DD was not the designation of Fine Damascus but rather, Extra Fine Damascus and even Finest Damascus. Per Mark's post DD Damascus barrels are not normally found on Grade 4 and lower.

[Eldon Goddard]

Mr. Hause keep them coming. I wish I could talk to you in person about Damascus steel. I have been trying to model 3 iron Damascus on the computer but takes a lot of head scratching figuring out where the pattern comes from. I believe the swirls result from flattening out the twisted iron rods. I assume that the helix of the twisted rods would turn into swirls when the rods are pounded out flat.

[Drew Hause]

Eldon: after John Blaze abandoned the effort at Parker Bros. c. 1880, to my knowledge no one in the U.S. has made crolle Damascus shotgun barrels until Steve Culver www.culverart.com did so in 2012 . Check out
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1jQPuv4yOXpTppdXkAiyGj6LC5bXDAYBCR1DME9lB0JM/edit

He has been working with computer graphic design programs in the other direction; from the finished barrel back to the lopin, in order to show how the lopin was 'stacked' or 'piled'
See http://www.picturetrail.com/sfx/album/view/24317402

This is a Parker 3 Iron Bernard II barrel with the end of the ribband segment where it was folded over as it was added to the barrel, and shows the pattern of the lopin

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL1373/6511424/24317402/305870717.jpg

[dwight pugh]

thanks for that Drew,
looks very time consuming...must of been some very big hammer forges for barrels of 30 inches or more. watching that , i can't imagine 6 or 8 blade.

ddp

[Dean Romig]

Drew, do you have any pictures of John Blaze barrels or any documented serial numbers of such Parkers?

There are records of Parker Bros. having produced a small number of composite barrels... do you have information on exactly what they were in regard to whether they were Twist, Laminated, or crolle Damascus.... or possibly all or some of these?

[Craig Larter]

OK so is this 3 iron crolle or 4 iron crolle, I see three full bands and two 1/2 bans next to the weld lines. Thanks Craig
http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t2/clarter/3iron_oxford_zps1ba1e070.jpg (http://s156.photobucket.com/user/clarter/media/3iron_oxford_zps1ba1e070.jpg.html)

[Mark Ouellette]

3 full plus 2 x 1/2 = 4 :) That is a great example!

[Craig Larter]

OK help me with these two examples?? First one looks like 1 full band and two 1/2 bands. It is really hard for me pick out the weld band.
The second one looks like 5 full bands and two 1/2 bands??
http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t2/clarter/DSC_0018_zpsafbf2562.jpg (http://s156.photobucket.com/user/clarter/media/DSC_0018_zpsafbf2562.jpg.html)
http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t2/clarter/DSC_0014_zpsa2a6012e.jpg (http://s156.photobucket.com/user/clarter/media/DSC_0014_zpsa2a6012e.jpg.html)

[Mark Ouellette]

Craig,

Yes, you got those band counts correct! The 6 band is hard to see so I blew it up to 400%!

Mark

[Dean Romig]

Craig, the 6-band barrels should have the DD stamp on the right barrel flat.

Is that your BH?

[Craig Larter]

Dean: Yes it is stamped DD and it my BHE.
The other picture in the same post is a GH. After studying the GH picture again it looks like three iron Crolle, I think I can see two full bands and two half bands. Plays tricks on my old eyes. Very interesting. Thanks

[Mark Ouellette]

Okay Craig you tricked me also!

I blew up the GH Damascus photos and can now wee 2 + (2) 1/2 bands.

[Dean Romig]

That's right Craig.

[Dave Noreen]

On page 511 of The Parker Story, Figure 12.13 shows the barrel flats of a D-Grade (Quality 3) hammer gun made in 1900, and the right flat is stamped DD.

Did that gun just happen to get a set of barrels for a higher Quality gun? What do we know about #96343? The authors don't explain the DD marking?

[Drew Hause]

Dean: please review https://docs.google.com/document/d/12y9006Ur7mMCqdeeye89c7L4DQrc2iXR8p4S6OIN1bA/edit which includes an image of your (presumed to be) Parker produced Laminated Steel barrels.
To my knowledge, the only (rather messy 3 Iron) Crolle Damascus barrels made in the U.S. were for Wesson Firearms Co., and by whom is only an educated guess.

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL1373/6511424/20432700/375965620.jpg

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL1373/6511424/20432700/375965611.jpg

[Dean Romig]

Good find Dave! That is six-iron crolle and the first I have ever seen on either a hammer or hammerless below Grade 5. I'd sure like to see the research letter on that serial number.

[Dean Romig]

AHA!! Thank you Drew! That's very informative and there is a picture of Parker 14056 which has Laminated Steel barrels. 14056 is now in my custody, having been a gift to me from Austin only a couple of months before he left us.

The barrel flat has a P as well as a 3 indicating its grade. Also evident in the pictures are both the mismatched tubes as well as the two-section barrel tubes of mismatched patterns. A very interesting Parker to be sure.



.