Shot shells pressure.. how important..

[Gary Weaver]

For a Parker or other vintage SxS from 1900-1930's with Steel barrels (not Damascus) how important are the shells we use as far as pressure is concerned.
I always stay under 1200 fps..
I have used RST 2 1/2 1125 fps and 1187 fps shells with no issues as the pressure is supposed to be around 6500, was wondering if I could use some Winchester AA Extra Light Target 1oz #8 1180 fps.. but dont know the pressure on those as Winchester doesn't share that data.
Dont want to have issues with the 2 nice Parkers (and other vintage SxS's) I have so want to make sure I am using the correct shells not to cause any damage.
Thanks.

PS moved this from Parker Hammer Gun Forum..

[Pete Lester]

With fluid steel barrels I am not concerned with the pressure of factory loads. Recoil is the issue as lighter recoil is more kind to old wood and one's shoulder. A factory load of 1 ounce and 1180 is reasonably soft. Light factory loads however are not usually going to be low pressure as they are designed to cycle semi-auto's. Often they are near SAAMI max. Again nothing to be concerned about with fluid steel provided you have "normal" wall thickness.

[Gary Weaver]

Thank you thats good to know, and a relief.

[Paul Harm]

Gary, staying under some velocity doesn't have anything to do with low pressure or any pressure. I've reloaded shells at 1300fps at around 7000psi. They were only 3/4oz, but that's one of the reasons I could. A quick look at a reloading hand book I see from 5500psi to 10,300psi with a 1oz load at 1200fps. So please don't assume some velocity assures a safe pressure. What I think most of us worry about is cracking the wood or getting the barrels sloppy on the receiver from repeated use of high pressure factory ammo.

[charlie cleveland]

i shoot thefactory field loads in 7/8 to 11/4 in the 20 ga 16 ga and the 12..for a lot of years in my old doubles with never a issue except one..i bought some bargain loads from a friend about 300 of them for 15 dollars all were low brass shells they were not over 6 years old..i was dove hunting with them one of those shells kicked like both barrels went off at same time but did not it broke my stock on a 94 remington at the wrist...i fiunished shooting up the same shells in a old stevens double with no problems..these were factory loads all i know is maybe that shell set on a dasboard of a truck in direct sunlight or was dropped in water and changed the powder load some way..i guess what i m trying to say if you shoot enough sooner or later you will have a problem with a gun and a load of some kind...in my shooting thru the yearsi bulged a 20 ga single gun barrel..blowed the side out of a barrel on a 28 ga rem..automatic and broke the stock on the 94 rem... those have been my mishaps a shooting and hunting...i reload and i shoot factory loads from lite to as much lead and powder as the factorywill pack in there loads but im like every one else i choose the gun with which load im gonna shoot it it..and some of my old guns will dijest anything made with no problems.. charlie

[Gary Weaver]

I understand that FPS doesnt mean anything when it comes to Pressures.
I would imagine that 1300fps is quite a bit higher in pressure than 1150 or 1180 though.. and im not going to shoot 1300 in my sxs..

I dont reload so thats probably more the problem than anything as it seems that if you reload, there are formulas that will take into consideration the Pressure you are getting from certain loads.

Going the easy route, i was just trying to find out the pressures of some of the Winchester AA's extra lite target loads that are 1oz 8's at 1125 and 1185 fps..
Probably not going to be able to get that information anywhere.

I think that we have determined that those loads should not harm the shotgun since i do have the steel barrels and not damascus. So I will try those and see how it goes, and how they feel, compared to the RST 2 1/2" (1180) lite loads i have been using but are getting expensive with shipping etc..

Thanks for the input and what ever else anyone wants to add is very helpful information and speeds along the learning process, as i really dont want cracked wood and bulging barrels if i can help it :)

[Paul Harm]

Gary, reloading is half the fun of shooting these old SxS's. After you do it for awhile enough different supplies are accumulated so just about any type of shell can be reloaded without running around trying to find the shells you want. Plus, you'll know what pressures the shells are. And you'll have the satisfaction of breaking clays or shooting game with your own ammo. I know a lot of guys don't like the mess and clean up afterwards, but shooting a 130 year old damascus SxS hammer gun with some of your own roll crimped paper shells, fiber wads, and black powder that go boom with a cloud of smoke is about the most fun you can have with your pants on. I usually save them for shooting skeet on a calm night under the lights - my fellow shooters whine about the smoke when they shoot. I tell em " you think you got it bad, try shooting it."

[Gary Weaver]

Paul,
I think your right.. I used to load 45acp when i was shooting pistols and it was a very satisfying experience of loading the way you wanted when you wanted and not have to worry about going to Gander or your local shooting store and finding no ammo for months at a time..

I just got into shotgun sports about 3 yrs ago and figured it would be too much to grasp all at once but I think i'm ready to dive in and give it a shot.. I got a quick lesson a few weeks ago and found it a good learning experience and like you said very satifiying knowing the loads you are shooting are your own..
I am working as a RSO at our local range so there are plenty of empty hulls there for the taking..

Thanks for sharing that with me as you have motivated me to start loading my own.. I guess you'll be hearing more from me in the reloading forum now LOL..

Take care and thanks again..
Gary

[wayne goerres]

Paul Do you have a supplyer for your paper hulls. I might like to try to load a few of them.

[Bruce Day]

Parker did not differentiate between fluid and Damascus steel for load recommendations. For 12ga , Parker published light, medium and heavy load recommendations, the heavy being stout indeed. There were load recommendations for 16, 20 and 28ga as well. Velocity is provided on the following table so while drams equivalent is stated only for DuPont smokeless, it can be roughly determined for other powders. Note the statement about where velocity is measured.

Another way of loading is to use the patterning load that Parker used for your specific gun. If you are missing the hang tag for your gun, what would have been on it can generally be determined. The predominate Parker 12ga patterning load is 3 dre 1 1/8oz, which has been the standard trap load for over 100 years.

Service and proof load pressures, both mean and maximum, are provided in a Parker table in The Parker Story. They generally follow SAAMI standards of the day. I do not know of any hammerless Parkers that were restricted to shoot less than SAAMI service loads when SAAMI standards were established or previously, industry norms before SAAMI was formed.


While loading down may be a general good practice and many people have their own ideas, sometimes owners want to know what the designer and manufacturer of the gun recommended.

[Mark Ouellette]

Bruce,

That was an excellent point! Parker offered its guns in different frame sizes/weights for what I think would often be for heavier or light loads. I have a #5 frame 10 gauge lifter weighting over 12 pounds which would have certainly tamed a heavy black powder load more that a similar gun built on a #3 frame weighing "only" 9 pounds!

Mark

[Pete Lester]

Velocity is provided on the following table so while drams equivalent is stated only for DuPont smokeless, it can be roughly determined for other powders. Note the statement about where velocity is measured.

Anyone know how velocity was measured "over a 100 foot range" back then, radar guns, electronic chronographs did not exist?

[Bruce Day]

Its called a ballistic pendulum and versions have been in use since the 1700's. There are numerous treatises about how it works that are interesting to read for those who are interested in physics. Not wanting to sound like a know it all, interested people might check the internet for explanations and details. Its basically a target calibrated for weight of the projectile that moves when it is hit and the movement relates to momentum which relates to velocity. I remember reading a naval story mentioning the huge size of the ballistic pendulum that had to be used when measuring the speed of a 20lb cannonball.

Bruce.....and that's pitifully all I know about it......and I'm no expert.

[Pete Lester]

A pendulum hit by a 20lb cannon ball, that must have been quite the gong show! Engineers of generations past were very clever with "simple" tools.

[Harry Collins]

Winchester reloading data that equates to their AA EXTRA LITE is about 7,400 psi. THis load is AA hull, WW 209 primer, 19.5 grains of WST powder, WSL wad and 1 oz of shot as I remember. I shoot these reloads in an 1881 Lifter Parker with Twist barrels at sporting clays all the time. Shot a 96 with this load and that old gun a month or so ago.

[Paul Harm]

That's a lot better than I shoot. Way to go.

[Harold Lee Pickens]

So, what kind of pressures do you want to stay under for Damascus, specifically 16 ga. I'm loading a couple of nice loads that are around 6000 psi that are fine. One uses International and Win CF and cheddite hulls and the other RGL's and 20/28 (thanks, Daryl). Is 9000 psi ok?

[Mark Ouellette]

Harold,

Safe peak pressure in Damascus should be based on barrel wall thickness from the chamber to about 15". After that the pressure is so low that an old steel can would contain it. A barrel that thin would however dent or bend far too easily!

I have heavy Damascus barrels that will handle modern shells to the SAAMI mean working pressure. I also have a 16 gauge Lefever and a few #1 Frame Parkers with seeming untouched barrels that I would NOT shoot modern ammo. Oh, I think that would be fine but why take the chance? Certainly the recoil from modern loads (not necessarily high pressure loads) would not do any good for the stocks!

Loads at 6000 PSI are safe for almost gun with Damascus or twist barrels in the condition or close to as what they were when they left the factory. I don't worry much about 8000 psi but then I don't shoot guns with barrels with pits the depth of the Grand Canyon! If fact I did buy a DHE Damascus that measured about .016" where my forward hand would be. Although with 6000 peak psi loads they would have been safe I retired those barrels from service and rebarreled the gun. Why, because I might screw up someday and shoot a high pressure load in it. Or, maybe the net caretaker would. I am a big fan of fingers!

So, all the above stated, 6000 psi should be safe but have your barrels measured if you have doubts. My Hosford Barrel Wall Thickness Gage may have save my fingers in reference to the above described barrels. That may have been the best $600 I ever spent!

I'd have Damascus or twist barrels measured before I subjected them to 9000 psi peak. Even a heavy barreled gun may have been honed too thin. It is hard to maintain the concentric relationship of bore to outer diameter when honing without special tools. Even original Parker bores may not be as concentric as what appears to the eye!

Shoot well and shoot safe!
Mark

[Paul Harm]

Wayne, a friend gave me a seed bag of paper hulls - maybe 2000. I to would try and stay away from 9000psi - too many loads [ for reloaders ] that are around or under 7000psi.

[Daryl Corona]

Harold;
I'm glad the 20/28 worked out for you. Personally I try to stay around 7000psi. and as Paul says there are a ton of loads in that range. That's my comfort range and so far so good. By the way, I use these light loads primarily for my comfort, then comes the wear and tear on the gun and lastly for economics. I just can stand recoil anymore. Just maybe with age comes wisdom.