Walmart winchester AA

[wayne goerres]

I was at the new walmart and I came across some double A that were differnt than any I had ever seen. They are marked 12ga 980 FPS 26 gram #8. I know this isnt exactly reloading but has anybody tryed thes shells.By the way they are 2 3/4".

[Paul Harm]

They were made for " Cowboy Action Shooting " crowd. I sometimes reload for those guys at my club. Mine aren't quite the same - 3/4oz at 1150fps - but accomplish the same thing at a lower cost - no recoil.

[charlie cleveland]

those are the new low recoil loads...ive not tryed them but have talked to some people who have. they say no recoil in average heavy gun.they do not operate in most automatic shotguns so well...this is what ive been told... charlie

[wayne goerres]

These shells are about 3.00 a box cheaper than RST shells. I am going to try them in my D grade and my stinworth as soon as it stops raining.

[Mark Ouellette]

Here you go!

The attachment contains the results of Sherman Bell's pressure test in the AA Lite shells.

Be advised that this data is from 1999 and Winchester could have changed the load/pressure since then.

[wayne goerres]

These are called Low recoil low noise shells not lite. Velosity is only 980 FPS. Lower velosity means lower preasure. 980 FPS is also subsonic.

[Bill Murphy]

I have some experience with them (the 980 fps Winchester loads). They probably hit a target just fine, but don't always sound good. I'm afraid that the powder they are using is not as fast as it should be for such loads. I have freezer tested the lightest RST loads and found them to be reliable and of good "sound" even when frozen. RST must have access to very fast powders that Winchester does not choose to use.

[wayne goerres]

I did test fire a few rounds of these shells through two different guns today(hardly a difinitive test). A D grade parker Damascus barrels and a fox sterlingworth. Recoil was minamal even the fox with 2 5/8 chambers. The parker has 2 3/4 chambers.The noise level seems a little less(then I discovered I wasn,t wearing my hearing protection). I dont beleive you will get any bloopers here in the south. The tempeture dosn't drop low enough. May be a problem up north in the colder climates.

[Gary Weaver]

I have used them for Skeet as you are not shooting great distances like in 5 stand or Sporting Clays.. they work fine for skeet.. the recoil is very nice for that.. not sure if they would be fast enough for trap or SC.. shot 5 stand with them and didnt do so good.. but that of course could be me.. :-)

[Pete Lester]

A bang and some recoil is not a bad thing. I like my shells to have a little of both and I did not like the subsonic shells when I tried them. I shot a round of trap with a Browning Recoiless trap gun. I found the almost total lack of recoil unnerving, every shot felt like a squib load which I found distracting. Perhaps over time I would have gotten used to it. The gun was incredibly effective in reducing recoil but it never sold well and is seldom seen these days. Perhaps others felt the same as I.

[Mark Ouellette]

Lower velocity means lower preasure.

Lower velocity does NOT mean lower pressure! That is a logical assumption but unless you have measured the pressure you cannot be certain of this. Luckily Sherman Bell conducted a test on the subject ammunition and provided the results in writing, albeit that was 14 years ago.

[Gary Weaver]

How do we find out the pressures of box ammo?
I have been on the Winchester site and it does not state the pressure of most of there shells.

[wayne goerres]

Send 40.00 and five shells to precision reloading and they will put them through a preasure barrel for you. Lower preasure dose equate to lower velocity It just dosn't always work on a fixed ratio(such as one FPS equals one PSI) And if you read the original statement you will see that nthese are not the same shell sherman bell tested.Winchester did not make these shells back then.

[Mark Ouellette]

Lower preasure dose equate to lower velocity It just dosn't always work on a fixed ratio(such as one FPS equals one PSI)

Once again a logical assumption but only if all else is equal. There are no guarantees except that the ammunition will not exceed the SAAMI maximum (peak) mean working pressure.

How could this be so? Is the manufacturer using the same primers, powder, and wads? They may have even changed the design of the case! Changing any of the components (or amount of powder) can and will vary the pressures.

Perhaps what you are thinking of is total pressure during the time the load is moving through the barrel. If so then you are correct. Total pressure "under the curve" is what is doing the work of accelerating the ejecta. The ejecta includes all things moving don the barrel including weight of powder, wad, and shot. If however you were referring to the "peak" pressure which is what 99.99% of persons are referring when they refer to high pressure, then you would be wrong. Peak pressure is what will blow up a barrel if it is too high.

For example one could load a shotshell that would only develop 900 fps in a certain gun but have a peak pressure of 18000 psi. How could this be possible? If a small amount of very fast burning powder is ignited and burns developing a very high pressure but then the pressure curve drops almost immediately (because the powder is almost completely burnt) to less than 1000 psi the load will likely develop only a low velocity. No, a manufacturer won't sell something like this due the the risk of a secondary implosion. If different powder is used a lower velocity may be developed at a higher maximum "peak" pressure.

The bottom line is that unless you test or pay to have shotshells tested, all you will know is that they do not exceed the SAAMI maximum mean working pressure.

[Bill Murphy]

All we have to do to prove Mark's point is to read a loading manual. Loads of certain shot weight and velocity have pressure figures all over the map.

[Paul Harm]

About the only time lower pressure means lower velocity is if you hand loaded a shell then kept everything the same but next time you used a little less powder. You'd then have less pressure and less velocity. Looking in my IMR handbook there's a 1100fps load at 7800psi and just down from it there's a 1200fps load at 5400psi. Different powder and primers. So you could have high pressure with low velocity. If you don't know, get it tested.

[charlie cleveland]

i ve seen loads that were tested the loads were identical in all areas but there wasover 2000 lbs pressure differace in the two loads...i guess its like buying two new chevy sboth coming off assembly line both being exact twins...you put them on the drag strip with the same driver and one will out perform the other in speed acceleration etc...most are pretty close in performance but then comes along a shell or car that blows the hole thing apart... charlie

[Mark Ouellette]

A good analogy Charlie!

A couple years ago I measured the pressure on promotional Federal and Winchester 12 gauge cartridges. From the same box the pressures varied more than 1000 psi between individual shells.

The figure below shows pressure traces from two handloads in which I varied only the type of shot.

Traces 1-5 were with lead shot where a spread of almost 1500 psi and mean of 6658 psi. Of these T5 was 700 PSI above the highest of the other four traces (shells fired). There could have been something very minor which caused this 10% pressure increase such as a stronger crimp.

Traces 6-10 (T8 didn't register) were with ITX shot (which is harder than lead) where a spread of only 627 psi and mean of 9771 psi.

What I learned from this was that with the hulls, wads, primers, and certain amount a specific powder, an equal weight of ITX would cause a 32% pressure increase. Had I thrown out trace T5 the pressure increase would have been even higher! Also notice that there is only a range of 600 psi difference in the IXT loads. Perhaps the higher pressure caused a more efficient burning of powder?

[Pete Lester]

A good analogy Charlie!

A couple years ago I measured the pressure on promotional Federal and Winchester 12 gauge cartridges. From the same box the pressures varied more than 1000 psi between individual shells.

Mark, how and what did you use to measure these pressures? Do you have the same ability to measure pressure in the 10 gauge?

[Mark Ouellette]

Pete,

These loads were in measured using a 10 gauge and a Pressure Trace II.

The PTII works as long as one has a standard (reference load) to calibrate it to. Also, precise measurements must be taken of chamber thickness. The process is a pain in the butt but given a day to dabble with it good results can be obtained. I like it for starting with a good loading data such as that from a Lyman manual or Sherman Bell's research. Those are my standards (actually approximate references and certain not a "Standard"!) from which I experiment with a change of primer, shot, wad or so on...

Last year I used a single barrel American Arms as my test gun. I recently obtained a Marlin Super Goose 10. The gun is like new and it will be a shame to glue the strain gage (sensor) to the chamber. I also bought a simple return to battery cradle to save my shoulder! Now all I have to do it to build a bench strong enough to mount the rig to!!!

As you might guess this part of my hobby is getting expensive but it's at about $20k less than a real test barrel, universal breach, and Ohler pressure measuring equipment.

[wayne goerres]

OK I see how all this got going. Apparently you have to spell out even the obvious. You said it your self earlyer. ALL THINGS BEING EQUAL. I was comparing apples to apples not apples to oranges.Same case same crimp ,same wad,same primer,same payload. the only to significantly increase or decrease velosity is to change the powder. Now I will admit to being a little lazy but I did check Sherman Bells data and it comfirms that when all else is equal that an increase in powder increases velocity and preasure.

[Mark Ouellette]

Wayne,

No offence meant but WE do not know what powders Winchester uses to load their ammo. Chances are a big manufacture uses what ever is available at the LOWEST cost to produce a specified result. Their low recoil ammo could be at 6000 psi one month and 9000 psi the next so long as it pushes a specified load at the advertised velocity.

In reloading it pays to be accurate especially if you are sharing information on the Internet.

[wayne goerres]

I am baseing my analisis of this shell on felt recoil. I am most worried about a Split stock not my damascus barrels. Sherman Bell wasn,t building reloads to check preasures rather he was trying test damascus to the point of failyour. I think he did an excellent job and I use son e of his reloading data. I say this knowing that a lot of his published data came from outside sources. Buy the way I (personaly) would be very surprised if Winchesters tolorances on preasure were that wide.

[Mark Ouellette]

Wayne,

I think we are on the same page!

Pressure certainly creates the energy to accelerate the ejecta but it alone is NOT a factor in determining the amount of recoil any load will produce in a firearm.

The attachment is from SAAMI for the Free Recoil Energy formula. It is teh most accurate and is pretty complicated. For our purposed here is an easier to use version from another forum:

Free recoil=

(weight of the bullet X muzzle velocity + 4700 X weight of powder charge)squared
__________________________________________________ ___________________
64.348 X weight of gun in pounds

The top line is divided by the bottom line. Sorry about the poor graphics above.

To simplify it even more this is a link to a recoil calculator:
http://kwk.us/recoil.html


Pressure creates movement of the ejecta against its launch platform which in our case in a shotgun. The movement of that platform is the recoil based on the total weight of the eject and it's velocity, both of which are countered by the weight of the gun. The heavier the launch platform the less recoil energy. Hmmm, in theory the less movement in the launch platform the greater the velocity of the ejecta although in most cases this would be darn hard to measure :)

Excessive recoil may crack our 100+ year old stocks, especially if a stock is soaked with decades of cleaning oil...

Excessive pressure will loosen an action of it too excessive produce a bulge in, or even burst a barrel.

The attachment is the Gun Recoil Formula from SAAMI:

[Pete Lester]

Mark I have found the on-line recoil calculators (like the one below) to be quite informative. One must add the weight of wad and filler wad to the "bullet weight" to properly calculate recoil. Wads are light but they are not inconsequential, the AA12SL weighs 34.1 grains.

My favorite 7/8 ounce load, 1200 fps, generates 11 ft lbs of recoil in my 8 lb DHE.

Up the shot charge to 1 ounce and recoil increases 27% to 14 ft lbs.

If I shoot a standard 2 3/4 dram trap load of 1 1/8 ounce at 1145 fps recoil increases 54% to 17 ft lbs.

http://www.huntamerica.com/recoil_calculator/

[Mark Ouellette]

Thanks Pete!

In typing the above I forgot about the mass of the wad!

It is significant that in increasing the shot charge by 12.5%, while maintaining the same mass of powder and wad, the recoil increases by 27%. I bet a higher velocity would of the same 7/8 and 1 ounce loads would cause an even higher rise in recoil!

Okay, it's back to my yard work!!!
Mark

[John Dallas]

Mark - Doesn't the calculator measure the total area under the curve? I think what most of us are concerned with is the peak pressure spike which occurs shortly after the round is fired. What I want in a "low recoil" shell is one with a minimal pressure spike, and a longer duration, which results in a push against your shoulder, rather than a punch. I think that's why slower burning powders are more comfortable on me (and the gun).

As a side benefit, I believe shot from a slow burning powder load patterns better, because it has not been subjected to the "jab", and isn't deformed as much. When I was gunning springer field trials, which requires that you shoot the birds at maximum range, (in order to see the dog's marking and retrieving ability), I was shooting 26.5 gr of 800X and 1 1/4 oz of hard 6's or copper plated 5's

[wayne goerres]

Were going the long way around the barn to tell me what I already know. The shells are as advertised. Now I didnt conograph the load But the recoil is mild and the noise level is low. Recoil is more of a precieved thing. What seems like a lot of recoil to one person dos'nt seem like mutch to the next person. I have used this formula and in the real world it dosnt mean much other than to tell you how much reaward thrust your load along with the weight of the gun will generate. How each person precieves that thrust is different. We have gone a long way from a load that IMHO wont break your stock. I am tickled to death that someone is manufactureing a shell and selling it locally that I feel safe putting through my doubles.

[Pete Lester]

Wayne the calculator can provide some useful information. A 26 gram load is a little heavier than 7/8 ounce. If I add 34.1 grains for a AA wad and use 15 grains as an estimate for the powder charge that 980 fps load is generating 8 ft lbs recoil in my 8 lb gun. That's 27% less recoil than my 1200 fps 7/8 load. That is going to be a very mild load.

[Gary Weaver]

Instead of no recoil maybe we should say managed recoil..
the 980 load is very nice in the old SxS's. It doesnt beat you up or the gun..
Just not sure how great it is for SC.. works well in skeet though.

[Mark Ouellette]

Big D,

The recoil formula be it on paper or calculator uses muzzle velocity as a factor and NOT pressure. Peak pressure is certainly not a factor. As you deduced, the total units of pressure over the time from primer ignition to wad leaving the barrel (and maybe a smiggon or time after that?) is what does the work of accelerating the wad and shot to muzzle velocity.

I agree with your theory of slower burning powder creating less felt recoil but there have been tests conducted that resulted in the opposite! Go figure... :)

[Mark Ouellette]

Were going the long way around the barn to tell me what I already know. The shells are as advertised. Now I didnt conograph the load But the recoil is mild and the noise level is low. Recoil is more of a precieved thing. What seems like a lot of recoil to one person dos'nt seem like mutch to the next person. I have used this formula and in the real world it dosnt mean much other than to tell you how much reaward thrust your load along with the weight of the gun will generate. How each person precieves that thrust is different. We have gone a long way from a load that IMHO wont break your stock. I am tickled to death that someone is manufactureing a shell and selling it locally that I feel safe putting through my doubles.

Wayne,

You started a good thread which evolved into a discussion the ol' pressure vs. recoil subject. Common sense would indicate that low felt recoil should not crack a stock. Fair enough. I hope we all realize that low recoil may be from low or high peak pressure. Most if not all shooter could not notice the difference in a large amount of slow burning powder or a load of ultra fast burning powder that produces a peak pressure in excess of what is considered safe so long as the load leaves the barrel at the same velocity.

In a fluid steel Parker who would care about low pressure? Not many unless someone honed or reamed the barrels thin enough to become dangerous! Removing pits from barrels is easy to do but keeping the bore concentric with the barrel exterior is far from easy! I have encountered such barrels and retired them from service.

For anyone reading this thread wanting to shoot a Damascus barreled gun, or fluid steel for that matter that has unknown barrel thickness, smoothly honed barrels to the point of being dangerous combined with a moderate peak pressure could cost them a finger or an eye! That is why some of us take this subject seriously. What we post on this PGCA forum is read by thousands of collectors and shooters. As PGCA members we try to provide accurate information with supporting references about a potentially dangerous subject whenever possible.

Pete and I and others dive into the science of ballistics because we shoot the Short Ten extensively for which there is precious little loading data available. Pete comprised a spreadsheet a year or two ago of the available loads which do not always accommodate the powder, primers, hulls, and type of shot that we may have available. For load development we measure velocity and peak pressure.

Once again, thanks for starting a great topic!
Mark

[Eldon Goddard]

I went out yesterday and shot a few rounds of this load through my Ithaca flues. It shot fine but it was difficult to open the action after firing. I have never encountered this problem before. Other than that it worked great.

[wayne goerres]

Doe,s your gun have 2 1/2 in chambers. Don,t know if that would cause it but cant think of any other reason.

[Eldon Goddard]

They are 2 3/4'' chambers I had them checked as I did not trust my homemade chamber gauge.

[wayne goerres]

You might try putting a couple of rounds in it and then reopen it without fireing the rounds. If your gun opens normaly than look for heavy foweling around the breach. I ran mine through 2 guns. My fox has 2 5/8 chambers and my parker has 2 3/4 chambers. Seemed ok.

[Eldon Goddard]

I did not think of that I will have to try it next time. I do not think the chamber is fowled but I will clean it just in case.