Straight Stock and Pitch

[Harry Collins]

I have had the missing parts on the family VH 16 gauge replaced and though the gun came with a capped pistol grip I had the missing trigger guard bow replaced with a straight guard bow. It is time to send it to my stocker and I want a 14 inch length of pull, no cast and checkered butt. I am unsure of what pitch to ask for. My fahers 20 gauge Trojan and my 28 gauge VH have a 2 3/4" pitch and I shoot them well. My restocked 20 gauge top lever hammered Parker and a family 20 gauge VH have 1 inch of pitch and I shoot them well.

I would like to know what your straight stocked Parkers pitch is and I need pictures of the checkering on a straight stocked VH or VHE. I did a rub of the checkering on an 1881 lifter and it was so worn that it did not come out well enough for the stocker.

Harry

[Richard Flanders]

Here's mine Harry. Original VH12. 1936 vintage. I'll take a closer shot of the wrist checkering if you need it.

[Austin W Hogan]

Harry; here are a couple of quick indoor pictures of a 207000 PH. I can't answer the pitch question; some people think it of major importance, but when I tabuated stock dimensions of about 50 guns, it made no sense at all.

Best, Austin

[Dean Romig]

Austin, I would like very much to see that one up close - will you kindly bring it to the New Year's Day Shoot?
Looks to be a G or D grade?

[Ben Yarian]

Harry, or others, if you can tell me how to measure pitch, I will gladly measure my 16 ga VH. While I do not know how it is measured, when I get a new gun I experment with a slip on leather lace up pad and shims to get the pitch that works for me. since the stock is still the original dimentions(it just has shims inside the slip on pad) I can get the original dimentions.
Ben

[Dean Romig]

set your buttplate squarely on the floor with your barrels against the wall. You will immediately notice that only the breech end of the barrels (at the doll's head) are touching the wall. The distance the muzzles are away from the wall is the "pitch" as I understand it.

[Harry Collins]

Thanks friends, I am begining to think pitch has a relationship to drop at the heel. Those Parkers that have over 3" of drop have about 4" of pitch, 2 3/4" drop have 2 3/4" pitch and 2 1/2" drop have 1" pitch.

Now I am sorry that you have all gone to the small arms locker and pulled all the Parkers out with ruler in hand, but at least they got a little rub down.

Thanks again, Harry

[John Dallas]

I think Dean's got it. Here's a definition lifted from Morris Hallowell's web site:

Pitch - The angle of the butt of a gun in relation to the line of sight. In America, pitch is measured by resting the gun with its butt flat on a floor, the top of the receiver against a wall and its muzzle pointing up. The distance of the muzzle from the wall is the gun's pitch down. In England, pitch is determined by measuring the length of pull, separately, to each of the heel, the middle of butt and the toe.

I have no idea what the English method means. I'll stick with the colonists' definition. Incidently. this means that a long-barreled gun will have more pitch than a short-barreled gun, with identical stocks :eek:

[Dean Romig]

Actually Harry, pitch is not determined by the amount of DAH but instead by the angle of the stock butt (where the buttplate is attached) in relation to the line of the barrels. A ninety degree angle (barrels perfectly perpendicular to the butt) would yield a pitch of 0".

[Bill Murphy]

Dean's explanation is the simplest. Parker actually made custom stocks using the three measurements from the butt to the trigger without mentioning pitch. Comfortable feeling bird guns can have pitch from one to two inches on 28 or 30 inch barrels. Guns with zero or negative pitch will slip off the shoulder on firing and a gun with more than 2 1/2" of pitch will recoil into your face.

[Don Kaas]

Harry, I have most of my guns restocked with 1" to 1 1/2" down pitch depending on barrel length (the degree method of measuring pitch is more accurate but rarely used). If you like 1" go with that.

[Harry Collins]

Dean,

I understand the angle of the butt plate dictating the pitch. What I was unable to convey is that the Parkers in my closet that had a lot of drop at the heel also had a lot of pitch. The Parkers that had little drop at the heel had little pitch. I am going to go with 1 inch of pitch with 2 1/2 inches of drop at the heel as that is what the other Parkers with 2 1/2 inches of drop have.

Does anyone have a picture of the checkering around the trigger guard on a VH or VHE? Austin's picture liooked like a higher grade or am I screwed up again?

Harry

PS: I am a little puny with the sniffles and am not processing very well so I hope my dribbble makes sence.

[Dean Romig]

I think the only difference between VH and GH checkering on a straight grip Parker is the LPI.

[Austin W Hogan]

Harry; the gun pictured is a PH with a very high comb; it is the one with owners notes under the pad shown in Parker Pages about 10 years ago.

With respect to your question, I just put the PH, a VHE straight grip trap, and an SC straight grip side by side. The patterns are the same except for an extra point in the middle on the Vee on the SC.

Mery Christmas; Austin

[Harry Collins]

Thanks Austin, I will send the pictre along with the Parker. The stock of the VH 20 gauge is going long as well so they have an example of the upper portion of the checkering. The toe is chipped on the 20 stock and I'm having it repaired with he addition of a Silvers pad as the LOP is 13". It is inletted for the butt plate toe, but does not have the original butt plate. Otherwise I would just use a pull on pad.

Harry

[Chuck Bishop]

Even though Harry isn’t looking for this information, I just measured the pitch on my 2 straight gripped Parkers.

The 1882 D grade hammergun has a drop at the heal of 2 3/8” and 4 degrees of pitch.

The 1903 DH has a drop at the heal of 2 ¼” and 2 degrees of pitch.

I measured the pitch using the shotguncombo guage I won in this years raffle. The main beam of the combo guage sits on the rib and an extension piece mounted on the beam is extended down to contact the surface of the butt. A protractor is used to measure the angle.

I can tell you that if your shotgun recoils into your cheek bone, the usual reason is the toe of the stock is digging into your chest instead of the entire butt surface making equal contact with your chest. This pivots the stock upward during recoil. The DH has just a little bit of muzzle jump into my cheek.

Measuring the pitch using the wall method can introduce many variables. How many have checked to see if the floor and wall are exactly 90 degrees all the way up the wall? I guess if you just want to compare all your guns and use the same spot for measurements, that’s OK, but you can’t be sure that the guy doing the cutting on your buttstock has the same configuration. Also if you use this method, I’d recommend taking the recoil pad off and going against bare wood.

[Francis Morin]

Both Bill Murphy and Dean Romig have, from my limited experience, the right concept of an accurate measurement using a door frame that is plumbed to a perfect 90 degree angle from the jamb to the sill plate-It is also true that two 12 gauge VHE's stocked with identical dimensions, but one with 26" barrels, the other with 30" barrels, will show a difference in pitch when so measured, if you measure both from the muzzles and the resultant "stand-off" from the vertical door jamb.

To my way of thinking, pitch affects more the type of field shooting you will do with a certain shotgun. I go back to my "Bible", Captain Paul A. Curtis' book "Guns and Gunning" Penn. 1934- his comment about the confirmed rabbit hunter using a gun with a greater drop and downpitch than his friend a confirmed quail hunter may well ring true, even today. And Trap and Live Bird guns are often stocked with very little pitch and drop at heel and comb, to give a built in elevation in pattern to typical rising and going away targets.

Also the style in which you mount your gun(s) may also affect the best pitch, etc. for you. I have studied by book and video the H&H Ken Davies mounting style, and use that for SC and when shooting Tower birds- most of those shots may duplicate the incoming and driven birds the British encounter, and their economy of movement, feet and hip rotation and fixing the eyes on the bird or clay and only seeing the muzzle and sight bead as a blur are very worthwhile.

Hunting waterfowl from field blinds, pits or layout boats, where the birds may be dropping their feet at first shots, then rising after the shots are fired, IMO, calls for slightly different LOP, DAH and pitch in my waterfowl guns. I also like solid Hawkins or older Silvers/Winchester 1922 patented pads on my guns, especially those for waterfowling and Tower birds. LOP wasn't discussed as much here, but the shape and placement of the triggers and grip style on a certain gun can also be a factor. Gloved hands or not, also a factor in gun fit worth noting.

There are so many variables in getting good gun fit, the one thing that remains a constant however, we all are going to miss, but good fit, including the pitch of your stock, can cut the miss column down considerably.

[Austin W Hogan]

Chuck is correct; if you use the combo gauge it will give you an angle from rib the butt face that can be compared. If you use the wall method the number is dependant on barrel length, length of pull and drop. It is possible to trigonometrically calculate the pitch angle from this if you know the length from muzzle to heel. It is a lot quicker and easier to use the combo gauge.
Best, Austin

[Dean Romig]

By using the "wall method" the only number that will change is the pitch as measured in inches and this number is of course, dependant only on the length of the barrels, not the LOP. However, the angle of pitch remains constant.
Of course, as the LOP increases so does the DAH.

[Bill Murphy]

The only thing about some of the comments that is correct is that both methods will work. Length of stock and drop at comb or heel don't make any difference at all, using either method. The length of the barrel also . .makes very little difference. At a two inch pitch, the difference between pitch on a 26" and a 30" barrel is about 1/4 inch. Dean is the only poster who came up with the correct factors that affect pitch. We can start to use the angle of pitch method (which Austin claims is quicker??) when we all own combo gauges and can find our protractors. Even Chuck didn't own a combo gauge until he won one. I will never own one. Quicker than sliding a shotgun against a door frame?

[Robin Lewis]

This is all very interesting but I'm confused. First, I can measure several of my guns and unless they have the same barrel length I wouldn't know if the "pitch" is the same or not from one to the next. Don't we need to go the next step and compute the actual angle using a little trig (sin of distance from wall divided by barrel length)?

Second, what do I do with this information? Is Pitch like the Length of Pull and I should know what is best for me and try to get all my guns to that measurement? Or, does it depend on what I'm hunting (shooting position)? Or is this to be left to the pro shooter and not for me?

I have listened to many discussions on LOP, cast, drop but this is my first time listening about pitch. I think I understand the computation methods but I don't know what one would do with this data? If I wanted to take pitch into account how do I know what is right for me?

[Chuck Bishop]

Robin,

In my opinion it depends on how you perceive recoil. If you don't notice recoil to your face on all your guns then pitch is not a problem for you. If you notice recoil to your face but all you do is shoot your gun during hunting season, you may decide to live with it the way it is. I was told that most hunting guns have about neutral pitch so that when mounting quickly, the heel slides easily up to the shoulder. Don't know if that's true or not.

If however you shoot alot of skeet, trap, or sporting clays where you may shoot several hundred shots per day, recoil to the face is not something you may be able to tolerate for a long period of time. I've shot trap all my life and just about every gun I've tried recoils into my face. I could have bought a nice Parker for all the money I've sent on recoil devices. I bought a K-80 some years ago and it also recoiled to my face. I had Paul Hillmer make me a custom stock and I told him about the recoil to my face. He said he could fix that and he did. Examining the new stock, the only real difference is he increaed the amount of pitch to the butt. It's now has about 8 degrees from neutral. What a pleasure to shoot now.

Others may disagree but that's my opinion.

[Francis Morin]

Great thread. I'm from the school of "If it isn't broken- etc" on pitch, and am lucky in that any field grade M12 Winchester with factory stock made from 1936 through 1960 will fit me "near perfect" for field and casual clays shooting. Trap, Skeet, SC and perhaps Live birds, another scenario for gun fit perhaps. So the answers of- No recoil, if you can hit birds cosistently, etc- ring true. And i am also about 90% a serious waterfowler for all seasons- the early warm Sept. nuisance geese, through flight birds into oct-Nov, ending early Dec. and then the late Jan-Feb season for Geese. That might mean the LOP that worked for Sept. shirtsleeves early Goose hunting on a golf course "poop prize patrol" squad, well you get the drift.

Having done beaucoup steel fabrication work, as well as being a proficient rough-in and finish carpenter, I can say that even with new "production" homes, roughed in in a Midwest late Spring- many builders are loath to hang in the pre-fit exterior doors until later on. Why? because wood shrinks and expands with internal moisture (even treated wood) and the heat of summer and conversely, with the cold of winter. Another example is in finish work, with crown moulding- not all intersecting walls are a true 45% to make a perfect 90%, and you often have to make a "jig tracing" to get a tight, gap free mitered joint--Point is, the door jamb test is a 'field fix" by either the protractor method tends to be more consistent in accuracy.

refering to Jack O'Connor's "The Shotgun Book" Knopf 1965--page 159-he has the outline of a sidelocked DT side-by and dimensions detailed alphabetically- as he shows: "If measurements G (LOP from front trigger to heel of stock) and H (LOP from front trigger to toe of stock) are given, the pitch will be right" I assume he may have mean those measurements as given by the purchaser or the purchaser and a gun fitter with a try gun- just my guess.

Jack also details pitch further on pages 160 and 161. Just for fun, I took my Smith 12 3E with 28" barrels and my Smith Grade 2 with 30" barrels (both have identical stock dims, both made aprox 1908) and after verifying with a framing square and 6 ft. level I had a plumbed to a 90% intersecting door jamb to insure "accuracy" and there is about 3/4" pitch at muzzles difference between those two on the 2" OAL barrel length- Truth be told, there could be any amount of difference between the two and it wouldn't matter at all, as I kill pheasants cleanly over dogs with either one of those 12 bores.

Sometimes, and this is just one old guy's opinion here, perhaps we "over-think" the details, but then, I am apparently an easy person to fit in a shotgun, I can't say. Feathers in the air and a heft to the game strap (within the limit of course) are, to me, the ultimate criteria. I also only shoot 12 bores, so I may have more possible pattern 'forgiveness"!!:bigbye:

[Austin W Hogan]

A dry wall square is not as elegant as a combo gauge, but it will give you all the numbers.

Best, Austin

PS As I remember from analyzing that machine inletted but unfinished DHE stock for DGJ. pitch is established for a Parker stock when the blank is headed up, and the butt plate inletted.

[Bill Murphy]

Robin, if you are confused by the different barrel lengths, just measure the pitch from the same point on each gun. It was asked (by Robin) how we are to use this information. Well, I think we will use the information derived from a gun that feels good and that we shoot well to determine the pitch we would prefer on the next gun we choose to modify. However, that isn't neccesarily true because I own very comfortable guns that have zero pitch and I own very comfortable guns that have three inches of pitch. The only modification I have ever made to the butt of any gun to make it shoot better is to put some sticky stuff on it to keep it from slipping on the second shot. Any deficiency of length or pitch I have taken care of by adjusting my shooting style. Unlike Chuck, I have never had a competition gun that needed an adjustment in pitch to compensate for excessive recoil or cheek slap. Either I am lucky or all of my guns have similar pitch. Actually, I'm just fooling with you because all of my comp guns seem to have about 1 to 2 inches of pitch and all feel the same.

[Austin W Hogan]

Here is the pitch analysis that I used in the DGJ stock dimension article.

Best, Austin

This is an excel file, which will not upload. The data came from measurements and dimensions by DuBray in the order books. Straight grip stocks varied from 1 1/2 to 3 1/2 inches pitch. I have the full table that includes drop, pull , inches and degrees pitch, but it is copyright DGJ. It can be looked up or perhaps I can find a way to publish one of the the preliminary data sets I used in the analysis.

[Austin W Hogan]

Here is a frequency analysis of 33 Parkers that I did before writing the DGJ article. The numbers in the bottom table are the number of guns with the pitch measured by the stand against the wall method.
An aside note; the PH shown near here as an example of straight grip checking is the gun with the least pitch, as measured this way. It is the only straight grip gun that I can use to shoot skeet five stand or sporting from an unmounted gun at the call.

I will contact Robin about putting the dimensions table on the FAQ.

Best, Austin

The table is too long for doc files; I'll make another try

[Austin W Hogan]

Nothing like starting off the day by outsmarting a computer. Maybe this version will be acceptable.

Best Austin

[Harry Collins]

Austin,

That is great information. My crude conclusion that the more drop a Parker has the moare pitch it will have follows what your data shows. Do you recall what issue DGJ your artical is in? Would you give me the stock DAH, DAC, length and pitch of your PH?

Thanks, Harry

[Francis Morin]

Now that indeed is good news. I hadn't thought about the door jamb method with a hammer gun, as all of my doubles are hammerless- good point--

What makes a drywall square, framing square etc work is the Pythagorean Theorum-- but here's a puzzlement, at least to me-- a roof with a 12/12 pitch is a 45% roof-- half of 45% is 22.5%, and half of 12 is 6-- But= when you want to step off common rafters for a 22.5% roof it is a 5/12 (unless it is a hip, then it goes to 5/17)-- huum- hey, that's just the way it works I guess.:duck:

[John Mazza]

Both of my Parkers (30" barrels) have a pitch of approx. 3 3/4" !

I shoot well with them, but this seems a lot higher than the numbers you guys have been quoting...

They have approx. 2 7/8" and 3 1/8" of DAH respectively. (I beleive they're both typical 14.5" LOP.)

Sound right ?

[Austin W Hogan]

I contacted Robin, and we hope to have a version of the pitch table that can be posted on the FAQ.
A rough analysis gives 2 1/2 to 4 1/2 inches ( mostly 3 to 4) of pitch on Parker field guns and less than that on trap guns.

Best, Austin

[Austin W Hogan]

The answer to the original question is that straight and pistol grip Parker stocks have the same pitch, and that the "wall" and combo gauge systems of measurement give essentially the same result. Several of the entries in the DGJ list were measured both ways, and the result is plotted here. P indicates pistol grip, S straight hand stock.
Best, Austin

[Austin W Hogan]

There is nothing like a good problem to keep one inside and busy on a sub zero day. I think I have figured out the geometry of pitch. A diagram and explanation are attached.

The pitch table indicates that 3.5 +/- 1inch is the common value for Parker field gun pitch as measured by the wall method. I made up a geometric diagram based on common Parker dimensions; 30 inch barrel;14 1/4 inch pull;2 3/4 inch drop at heel(dah); 1 5/8 inch drop at comb(dac) ; and 3.5 inch pitch. I measured several 12ga Parkers and found the arc of the trigger to be 2 inches behind the breech, and the comb to be 7 inches behind the breech.

This diagram determined that the Parker heading up and butt plate tooling for machine inletting and carving stocks was set up to cut the butt at an angle of 1 : 8 relative to the breech. That is 7.2 degrees relative to the breech face, and 82.8 degrees relative to the rib. That cut provides 3.5 inches of pitch for the standard dimensions noted above.

Changes in dah cause a 1 inch change in pitch for each 1/2 inch change in dah. Changes in barrel length cause a 1/8 inch change in pitch for each inch change in barrel length. Changes in pull change pitch 1/16 inch per inch change in stock length. All of these changes in wall pitch occur with constant pitch angle at the butt; ie they produce no change in "feel".

Pitch as such does not influence recoil against the face; this is the result of slope of the comb due to difference dac - dah. A monte carlo can provide dac - dah = 0 for no face recoil, while keeping a lower dah for faster mounting.

Best, Austin

[Harry Collins]

Austin,

That is a clear way of tying all the pieces together. Even I understood. I couldn't find your artical in the latest DGJ Index and Reader. I will look in the first one and then in those DGJ's not indexed. Pitch has been a wonderful topic of discusssion. I have had Winchester Model 12's with negative pitch and have not been able to check the current Winchester residents. Will try to do that this evening.

Thanks, Harry

[Austin W Hogan]

Thank you Harry. I have a Fox trap with negative slope on the comb, and a VHE trap with BTFE and a monte carlo with 0 slope ( dac = dah) on the comb. Both guns feel recoiless with any load.

Best, Austin

[Francis Morin]

[QUOTE=Harry Collins;9312]Austin,

That is a clear way of tying all the pieces together. Even I understood. I couldn't find your artical in the latest DGJ Index and Reader. I will look in the first one and then in those DGJ's not indexed. Pitch has been a wonderful topic of discusssion. I have had Winchester Model 12's with negative pitch and have not been able to check the current Winchester residents. Will try to do that this evening.

Thanks, Harry- Let me know if I can help, as I have seven older Model 12's-one a 20 made in 1932 with the pre-1935 "perch bellied" stock and smaller grip, a 28 made made in 1939, two 3" Magnums, a Field grade 12 and a original 1948 era Pigeon Trap 12 30" VR-- be glad to give you aprox. pitch, as none of them have been altered. I am blessed, right handed, right master eyed, still 20-20 vision, and any unaltered Model 12 field gun fits me "to a Tee"- But I shoot the doubles a great deal, possibly some variance between them, all I know is, if the stock is not too short, and I see nothing but the single bird in my focus and not any rib or sight bead(s)- dead bang!!

Austin must have an engineering background, and the genius of the Parker designers is evident to us all in setting a standard for pitch that allowed for slight variances in drop and LOP- interesting that Austin detailed for us the data from the front trigger arc position- wonder if later on when Parker offered its single trigger as an option if that placement changed things??:bowdown:

[Bill Murphy]

Yup, Harry, the first generation Model 12 stock was made with negative pitch and no one complained. When the second generation Model 12 stock was designed, it had positive pitch and no one complained. I was raised on the first generation Model 12 stock and shot it very well. What did I know?

[Harry Collins]

Both Winchesters have positive pitch. The 97 was made in 1944 and the 12 was made in 1962. I was never able to find Austin's artical on pitch in DGJ.

Harry

[Austin W Hogan]

Harry; I am not sure of the issue, but the last draft was March 07. I need to compress the table to post it here in the FAQ. Send me a message at austin.w.hogan@valley.net, and I will send you the stock dimension table.

Merry Christmas,

Austin

[Robin Lewis]

Harry; I am not sure of the issue, but the last draft was March 07. I need to compress the table to post it here in the FAQ. Send me a message at austin.w.hogan@valley.net, and I will send you the stock dimension table.

Merry Christmas,

Austin

Austin, I tried to attach your data table on this thread as a PDF file for viewing. I had to hide a column to get it to fit, the notes can't be seen but I think the real data is there for you to see.

Robin

[Austin W Hogan]

That looks great Robin; the last column wasn't really pertinent to this question

Merry Christmas, Austin

[Ronald Scott]

Although almost 10 years old this thread about "pitch" is very interesting and informative. I've never given pitch much thought and now knowing what I know I wonder how much pitch matters.

There is a photo of a highly modified and personalized stock used on a "live bird gun" in Parker Pages 2007 Vol 14 Issue 2 in an article titled: "The Influence of Stock Dimensions, Stock Finish, Butt Plates, and Pads on Parker Desirability"

Obviously whoever modified the stock thought pitch was important. Anything for an extra bird ...

I thought the pitch on my H&R A grade made in the 1880's (photos elsewhere) was excessive when I measured it at 4" but then I checked my modern day Beretta 686 that I use for skeet and shoot fairly well, found it too has 4" of pitch. The stock is straighter but the pitch is the same.

Some say pitch is used to control the way the gun recoils or kicks, others claim that the proper amount of pitch is determined based on the shape of shooter's shoulder pocket. Maybe both claims are right -- maybe it's a combination of the two?

I'm not going to get too hung up on it but I do find it interesting. I also find it interesting how much we have changed the way we mount and shoot a shotgun. Straighter stocks being the norm now. Why did it change? Maybe it has to do with the fact that the old timers did more live bird shooting and we do more clay shooting. An overhead live bird takes a much different gun mount than a straight away trap presentation. You can lean forward when shooting trap -- you can't when taking an overhead incomer.

The H&R that I mentioned has 3 1/2" of drop at heel -- it feels weird to mount in the normal way but when mounted and pointed straight up everything lines up. The right barrel is choked tighter than the left -- a live bird gun... as in driven birds. Birds that are taken almost straight about the shooter. There are so many nice vintage guns with lots or drop at heel -- it would be great to learn how to shoot them well.

Just some food for thought...